I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

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Post #71

Post by Autodidact »

Shermana wrote:
Artie wrote:
Autodidact wrote:
Shermana wrote:Why should a man not murder, rape, defraud, lie, or steal, if he feels it benefits him and he has the ability to get away with it without a trace?
Because due to our inescapable nature, it does not in fact benefit him, even if he could get away with it.
Shermana: A man should not murder, rape, defraud, lie, or steal because a man is dependent on the stability of the society he lives in and the stability of the society depends on the morals of the individual. Morals are an automatic code of law which developed when the first organisms started cooperating to ensure prosperity both for the individual and the society.
Tell that to the Mafia. Maybe the Zetas would have a change of heart. Maybe the sex traffickers would mend their ways once you tell them how society's stability is so important. Their prosperity certainly doesn't jive with society's morality.
Yes, they are all mistaken in their attempts to gain happiness. (Unless they are sociopaths.) People who are not rich, and devote their lives to creating beauty and helping others, are happier than mafia dons and Zeta members. It would be great to help them realize this. One of the things this approach does is help me feel compassion even for the poor misguided criminals who are mistaken about how to be happy.

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Post #72

Post by Shermana »

One quick note for Jackelantern, the "Give me the first of your sons" does not mean they sacrificed their firstborn sons. It specifically says they will be redeemed. This is yet another canard that demonstrates one has not read the text.


http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/pidyan.html
Let us explain what is meant by the word "redeem." The child is never taken away, after all, and never has to be "bought" back. Nevertheless, the father of a firstborn child must give a kohain-priest of his choosing a specific amount of money (five sela'im--this will be explained later) to "redeem" his son.
Find me a single commentary that says they did it and that's what was being referred to in Ezekiel. The NLT gets the context right here. It's referring to "handing them over" to their own statutes.

N
ew Living Translation (©2007)
I let them pollute themselves with the very gifts I had given them, and I allowed them to give their firstborn children as offerings to their gods--so I might devastate them and remind them that I alone am the LORD.
Last edited by Shermana on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #73

Post by Knight »

Mithrae wrote: It doesn't. The 'ought' is in my nature, and in the nature of most of humanity as I said.
Even that doesn't make sense to me. Why ought we to do what it is our nature to do? Calvinists think the nature with which we are born is morally corrupt and ought to be eliminated through sanctification.
Mithrae wrote:We can say that X is not language or X is not communication, with just as much objective validity as we can say that Y is not moral or Y is not 'good.'
I have no idea what this means. Are "X" and "Y" meant to stand for propositions? Are you saying that neither is objective or that both are objective? What do you mean by "objective validity"?
Mithrae wrote: In fact it's worth considering that the god-concept can detract from morality qua inter-personal behaviours, and instead suggest things like homosexuality or wearing clothing of mixed fabrics as an affront against the deity itself. To that extent I suppose the comparison with language breaks down compared with God-defined morality. But as far as moral relativism goes, both language and morals serve a purpose between people, and as you've further illustrated language is the considerably more divergent and 'subjective' of the two. But that doesn't diminish the validity of either morality or language.
This is a reason I prefer examining the truth of propositions in preference to the subjective/objective distinction. Are you saying that all moral statements are true? Hopefully not, as some conflict. But how is this related to language? Would you similarly assert that not all symbols can function as linguistic tags of thoughts? On what basis?
Mithrae wrote:You're presupposing that there is an answer to your questions, or that there are any moral duties (in an objective sense). Or perhaps not...
No, my aim is to discover whether or not there are such.
Mithrae wrote: I suppose you're correct in that "why do I want X?" is not a more important question than "should I want X?" But asking why I want X is an important part of questioning if I should want it, or indeed if there's anything I 'should' want.
I agree.
Mithrae wrote: Obviously, so far I'm of the opinion that there really is no 'should' - in effect, that there is no truly objective truth-value to the statement that murder is wrong.

My comments reflect that perspective, I admit. But since in general terms humans generally come to fairly similar views on what they 'should' do - allowing for the increasing size over the millenia of the group/s with whom we identify, and the various mutations of 'good' and 'bad' which have been introduced by god-concepts - I still thinks it's fair to say that how we'll generally interact with others will not be greatly altered by our views on why we should or simply why we choose to act thus.
That would be a sorry indication of the state of Christendom if true.

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Post #74

Post by Artie »

Shermana wrote:Fascinating studies on attitudes toward perhaps the most heinous of crimes.

http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0286.htm
The study was done by Malamuth of Univ. of Manitoba Harber and
Feshbach of UCLA, in the _Journal of Research in Personality_ 14 pg
121-137 1980. A study of UCLA undergraduates of both sexes response
to rape. A rape story was read by the subjects, who then answered
questions. In the story a male undergrad asks a female undergrad if
she wants a ride to her dorm. She says no, he thinks she is being,
"an arrogant bitch" he then forces her into the car and rapes her.

36% of the men self-reported sexual arousal while reading the
story. 37% identified with the rapist. 26% said the rapist was
justified (presumably because of the perceived insult). 38% said the
victim enjoyed being raped, while 47% of the women said the woman
enjoyed being raped (I am shocked by this). 8% of the men said the
victim could have stopped the rape, while 57% of the women thought
she could have stopped it. 36% of the men thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization, while 32% of the women thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization.

The worst part is 49% of the men said that the believe that other
men would rape if they could get away with it. Even more horrendous
on a scale of 1-5, 1 being most likely, when asked if *THEY*
personally would rape if the could get away with it 51% fell between
1 and 2, and 21% fell on 3.
Assuming this study reflects society at large within a reasonable margin of error in 1980, 51% of men believe they WOULD if they could get away with it, and if 3 is still fairly up there, 72% of men believe they would do it if they could get away with it. I would imagine the number hasn't exactly gotten lower as the HBO culture has gotten worse.

Now are you going to say that 72% of the men in this study were "evil"? If so, does that mean that "evil" is the predominant cultural mode among men?
According to the CIA World Fact Book in the US religious affiliations are "Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%" which should give 78.5% Christians in the US. 72% of men believe they would do it in a country where 78.5% of the population are Christian. Nothing surprising there to me.

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Post #75

Post by Autodidact »

Shermana wrote:
Artie wrote:
Autodidact wrote:
Shermana wrote:Why should a man not murder, rape, defraud, lie, or steal, if he feels it benefits him and he has the ability to get away with it without a trace?
Because due to our inescapable nature, it does not in fact benefit him, even if he could get away with it.
Shermana: A man should not murder, rape, defraud, lie, or steal because a man is dependent on the stability of the society he lives in and the stability of the society depends on the morals of the individual. Morals are an automatic code of law which developed when the first organisms started cooperating to ensure prosperity both for the individual and the society.
Tell that to the Mafia. Maybe the Zetas would have a change of heart. Maybe the sex traffickers would mend their ways once you tell them how society's stability is so important. Their prosperity certainly doesn't jive with society's morality.
btw, do you find that telling them that God wants them to cut that out is very effective?

I guess I think there's more hope of persuading them there's a better way to live than that they're making baby Jesus cry. To make it worse, they may be planning to repent later, and still make it into heaven, like Jeffrey Dahmer.

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Post #76

Post by Shermana »

"To make it worse, they may be planning to repent later, and still make it into heaven, like Jeffrey Dahmer."


This is a particular Theology which I find to be false, I believe all sins must be dealt with punishment even if one repents. David is an example of such.

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Post #77

Post by Autodidact »

Shermana wrote:Fascinating studies on attitudes toward perhaps the most heinous of crimes.

http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0286.htm
The study was done by Malamuth of Univ. of Manitoba Harber and
Feshbach of UCLA, in the _Journal of Research in Personality_ 14 pg
121-137 1980. A study of UCLA undergraduates of both sexes response
to rape. A rape story was read by the subjects, who then answered
questions. In the story a male undergrad asks a female undergrad if
she wants a ride to her dorm. She says no, he thinks she is being,
"an arrogant bitch" he then forces her into the car and rapes her.

36% of the men self-reported sexual arousal while reading the
story. 37% identified with the rapist. 26% said the rapist was
justified (presumably because of the perceived insult). 38% said the
victim enjoyed being raped, while 47% of the women said the woman
enjoyed being raped (I am shocked by this). 8% of the men said the
victim could have stopped the rape, while 57% of the women thought
she could have stopped it. 36% of the men thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization, while 32% of the women thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization.

The worst part is 49% of the men said that the believe that other
men would rape if they could get away with it. Even more horrendous
on a scale of 1-5, 1 being most likely, when asked if *THEY*
personally would rape if the could get away with it 51% fell between
1 and 2, and 21% fell on 3.
Assuming this study reflects society at large within a reasonable margin of error in 1980, 51% of men believe they WOULD if they could get away with it, and if 3 is still fairly up there, 72% of men believe they would do it if they could get away with it. I would imagine the number hasn't exactly gotten lower as the HBO culture has gotten worse.

Now are you going to say that 72% of the men in this study were "evil"? If so, does that mean that "evil" is the predominant cultural mode among men?
I would say they are mistaken, and one of the best ways to address the problem would be to let them listen to actual rape victims tell their stories.

I don't think there are (very many) evil people, but a lot of people who do bad things for bad reasons.

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Post #78

Post by Bust Nak »

Autodidact wrote:For a simple example, psychologists asked research subjects to eat a delicious meal, and other subject to perform an act of kindness. They found that both were happier. Those who did the kind act continued to be happier for 24 hours later.
Lets say they did an experiment with pizzas and hotdogs, that 90% of the random sample produced more happy signal within their brain due to pizzas than when eating hotdogs. Obviously you can make objective statement about subjective taste, but would you now say pizzas are objectively more tasty than hotdog?

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Post #79

Post by Shermana »

Artie wrote:
Shermana wrote:Fascinating studies on attitudes toward perhaps the most heinous of crimes.

http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0286.htm
The study was done by Malamuth of Univ. of Manitoba Harber and
Feshbach of UCLA, in the _Journal of Research in Personality_ 14 pg
121-137 1980. A study of UCLA undergraduates of both sexes response
to rape. A rape story was read by the subjects, who then answered
questions. In the story a male undergrad asks a female undergrad if
she wants a ride to her dorm. She says no, he thinks she is being,
"an arrogant bitch" he then forces her into the car and rapes her.

36% of the men self-reported sexual arousal while reading the
story. 37% identified with the rapist. 26% said the rapist was
justified (presumably because of the perceived insult). 38% said the
victim enjoyed being raped, while 47% of the women said the woman
enjoyed being raped (I am shocked by this). 8% of the men said the
victim could have stopped the rape, while 57% of the women thought
she could have stopped it. 36% of the men thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization, while 32% of the women thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization.

The worst part is 49% of the men said that the believe that other
men would rape if they could get away with it. Even more horrendous
on a scale of 1-5, 1 being most likely, when asked if *THEY*
personally would rape if the could get away with it 51% fell between
1 and 2, and 21% fell on 3.
Assuming this study reflects society at large within a reasonable margin of error in 1980, 51% of men believe they WOULD if they could get away with it, and if 3 is still fairly up there, 72% of men believe they would do it if they could get away with it. I would imagine the number hasn't exactly gotten lower as the HBO culture has gotten worse.

Now are you going to say that 72% of the men in this study were "evil"? If so, does that mean that "evil" is the predominant cultural mode among men?
According to the CIA World Fact Book in the US religious affiliations are "Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%" which should give 78.5% Christians in the US. 72% of men believe they would do it in a country where 78.5% of the population are Christian. Nothing surprising there to me.
I've made many posts about how much I think the doctrine that "Jesus forgives you for all your sins" has caused Christians to behave in terrible ways thinking that they are okay in the end, I've met plenty who think like that. That's more of a Theological issue which is unfortunately rampant. I believe this is what is being specifically referred to in Jude 1:4. But you'll find terrible rates of rape in other countries as well. How Christian is South Africa exactly?

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #80

Post by Goat »

Thatguy wrote:
Autodidact wrote: For me, they are psychological, and so discoverable.
We can discovery what people's moral views are, what societal views are, what historical views have been, what biological bases some of these views may have, etc. But does that tell us what ought to be? Can studying what moral views people happen to hold tell us that one person's moral code is right and another's wrong, or merely how common a view is and what might have influenced the person to hold that view?
Science doesn't handle that. The use of game theory might give optimal behaviors .. given a certain goal, but.. 'ought' of morality and ethics is one of the few items that actually have value when it comes to philosophy.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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