"Nothing can be known, not even this"

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Haven

"Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Carneades wrote:Nothing can be known, not even this!
In 159 BCE, ancient Greek skeptical philosopher Carneades made this statement in an attempt to refute the possibility of human beings having knowledge of anything, with knowledge defined as "belief that precludes the possibility of error." Carneades believed claiming knowledge of any sort was dogmatic.

For the skeptic, certitude of anything (even this statement) is impossible for humans to obtain. Instead, skeptics believe that humans can only assign degrees of probability to any proposition, granting higher probabilities to seemingly plausible propositions and granting lower probabilities to seemingly implausible propositions.

The principles behind skepticism are the fallibility of the human brain and the uncertain nature of reality. Science has demonstrated that the brain is capable of misinterpreting phenomena, creating hallucinations, and thinking irrationally.
Additionally, we do not even know what reality is: for all we know, we could be living in a computer simulation in which everything we can detect -- matter, energy, and other minds -- are all constructed from lines of computer code. Solipsism, the idea that nothing except one's own minds exists, could be true: after all, you could be a brain in a vat hooked up to a machine feeding you stimuli that causes your brain to react as if it were experiencing reality.

Skepticism appears the only truly rational response in the case of these considerations.

Debate question: is knowledge possible? Can anything be known with certitude? If so, how?

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Ionian_Tradition
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Post #11

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

I know that I am aware.

If I am aware, my awareness exists.

If my awareness exists, it cannot not exist.

If my awareness exists, its existence is tied to a reality which also exists...a reality which cannot not exist.


These things I can know with absolute certainty. Though propositions which can be known in full are rare indeed, we are not bereft of them entirely. I reject any claim which asserts that all knowledge is illusory.

Haven

Post #12

Post by Haven »

Ionian_Tradition wrote:I know that I am aware.
No, you don't. You could be dreaming, hallucinating, or in a comatose state. Your "awareness" could very well be an illusion. You can claim, with a high degree of probability, that you are aware, but you can't know it with absolute certainty.
These things I can know with absolute certainty.
See above.

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bernee51
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Post #13

Post by bernee51 »

Ionian_Tradition wrote:I know that I am aware.

If I am aware, my awareness exists.

If my awareness exists, it cannot not exist.

If my awareness exists, its existence is tied to a reality which also exists...a reality which cannot not exist.


These things I can know with absolute certainty. Though propositions which can be known in full are rare indeed, we are not bereft of them entirely. I reject any claim which asserts that all knowledge is illusory.
How do you know you are aware?  Can you observe this awareness? If so who is the observer? Can awareness observe itself? 
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #14

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

Haven wrote:
Ionian_Tradition wrote:I know that I am aware.
No, you don't. You could be dreaming, hallucinating, or in a comatose state. Your "awareness" could very well be an illusion. You can claim, with a high degree of probability, that you are aware, but you can't know it with absolute certainty.
These things I can know with absolute certainty.
See above.
To dream or to hallucinate is to experience. To experience one must first possess awareness. It may be true that my interpretations regarding that which I experience could be flawed, but the awareness which allows me to experience in the first place is not, and never was, contingent upon the accuracy of my perceptions. The fact that I experience at all, demonstrates that I am at the very least aware. The absence of experience is the absence of awareness. So long as I experience, I possess awareness to some degree. This I can know in full.

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Post #15

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

bernee51 wrote:
Ionian_Tradition wrote:I know that I am aware.

If I am aware, my awareness exists.

If my awareness exists, it cannot not exist.

If my awareness exists, its existence is tied to a reality which also exists...a reality which cannot not exist.


These things I can know with absolute certainty. Though propositions which can be known in full are rare indeed, we are not bereft of them entirely. I reject any claim which asserts that all knowledge is illusory.
How do you know you are aware?  Can you observe this awareness? If so who is the observer? Can awareness observe itself? 
Reiterating my response to Haven, it is by virtue of experience that my awareness is made known. I need not observe awareness (as if it were a thing to be observed) in order to demonstrate that I am aware. Is not observation itself awareness? If I observe anything at all (be it fact or facade), I experience. If I experience, I possess awareness.

Haven

Post #16

Post by Haven »

Ionian_Tradition wrote: To dream or to hallucinate is to experience. To experience one must first possess awareness. It may be true that my interpretations regarding that which I experience could be flawed, but the awareness which allows me to experience in the first place is not, and never was, contingent upon the accuracy of my perceptions. The fact that I experience at all, demonstrates that I am at the very least aware. The absence of experience is the absence of awareness. So long as I experience, I possess awareness to some degree. This I can know in full.
I wouldn't call hallucinations "awareness," because to be aware is to be cognizant of reality. If one thinks she is having experiences that do not correspond to reality, one cannot say that she is aware. If someone is unconscious and dreaming, is he aware? No, he is not aware of reality.

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Post #17

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

Haven wrote:
Ionian_Tradition wrote: To dream or to hallucinate is to experience. To experience one must first possess awareness. It may be true that my interpretations regarding that which I experience could be flawed, but the awareness which allows me to experience in the first place is not, and never was, contingent upon the accuracy of my perceptions. The fact that I experience at all, demonstrates that I am at the very least aware. The absence of experience is the absence of awareness. So long as I experience, I possess awareness to some degree. This I can know in full.
I wouldn't call hallucinations "awareness," because to be aware is to be cognizant of reality. If one thinks she is having experiences that do not correspond to reality, one cannot say that she is aware. If someone is unconscious and dreaming, is he aware? No, he is not aware of reality.
Awareness of experience does not necessitate that experience accurately reflect reality. To experience is to be aware of an experience, whether or not we accurately interpret our experiences as a faithful representation of reality is another matter entirely. So long as I've experienced something, I possess awareness of that experience. Can you offer an example of a form of conscious experience that does not necessitate awareness of the experience itself?

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Regens Küchl
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Re: "Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #18

Post by Regens Küchl »

Haven wrote:
Carneades wrote:Nothing can be known, not even this!


Debate question: is knowledge possible? Can anything be known with certitude? If so, how?
If it is impossible to know anything with certitude, than that applies also for this which makes it possible again :-k

And if it would not make it possible again, the alleged impossibility would be a lie in itself for than it would be a certain knowledge itself #-o

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Post #19

Post by Regens Küchl »

Haven wrote:
Ionian_Tradition wrote: To dream or to hallucinate is to experience. To experience one must first possess awareness. It may be true that my interpretations regarding that which I experience could be flawed, but the awareness which allows me to experience in the first place is not, and never was, contingent upon the accuracy of my perceptions. The fact that I experience at all, demonstrates that I am at the very least aware. The absence of experience is the absence of awareness. So long as I experience, I possess awareness to some degree. This I can know in full.
I wouldn't call hallucinations "awareness," because to be aware is to be cognizant of reality. If one thinks she is having experiences that do not correspond to reality, one cannot say that she is aware. If someone is unconscious and dreaming, is he aware? No, he is not aware of reality.
What about the cognizant awareness of a Fata Morgana which is no Dream/Halluzination, but is really there as Fata Morgan while it does not show reality as it truly is :shock: ??? :confused2:

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Post #20

Post by Mr.Badham »

I did magic mushrooms with a group of guys who had never done them before. They continually asked me if they were high. "Am I high? Am I?"

The answer I always gave them, is that if they weren't high, they wouldn't be asking if they were. It seemed hard for them to tell if they were high, but it was obvious to me, because they kept asking.

Were they aware of their highness? Did it matter that they were or were not aware? What about a girl who gets rouffied(?)? It doesn't seem to matter whether or not she's aware.

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