AN IMPORTANT QUESTION!

[Yusef]

I have a question for Christians:
We the people after dead have to answer one question among these questions about Jesus(a.s):

1- If Jesus(a.s) is son of God and or same God[Na'uzoBAllah], then he will asks us: "Why you were unbelieved that I was son and or same God? and you did believed just a manner of the three manners of God! so Jews and Moslems have to go to hell"!!!!

2- If He is, then will says: "O' Moslims! That's no problem for you who were unbelieved for the trinity! Because of you were believed with me as a prophet and my father as God and or myself"!!!

3- If Jesus(a.s) is just a prophet from the prophets of God, then God and even Jesus will say: "All modern Christians have to go to hell! because you told blasphemous speech about God!"

I ask you: in your opinion which is the most logical choice??

[Burninglight]

I have a question for Christians:
We the people after dead have to answer one question among these questions about Jesus(a.s):

1- If Jesus(a.s) is son of God and or same God[Na'uzoBAllah], then he will asks us: "Why you were unbelieved that I was son and or same God? and you did believed just a manner of the three manners of God! so Jews and Moslems have to go to hell"!!!!

2- If He is, then will says: "O' Moslims! That's no problem for you who were unbelieved for the trinity! Because of you were believed with me as a prophet and my father as God and or myself"!!!

3- If Jesus(a.s) is just a prophet from the prophets of God, then God and even Jesus will say: "All modern Christians have to go to hell! because you told blasphemous speech about God!"

I ask you: in your opinion which is the most logical choice??

It is not a question of logic. It is a question of trusting and believing what God said. Leaning to our own logic and reason or feelings can lead us astray; so, we cannot use our infinite understanding to make decisions on Godly wisdom and spiritual discerned truths. We must believe what God said.

God said Yeshua (Jesus) is His "Beloved son" A better question to ask is why should one believe the Quran over the Scriptures that came before it from God or why should those that believe that Yeshua is the son of God believe that the Bible is corrupted when God said His word is established forever in heaven? Are we supposed to believe that man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's POWER TO PRESERVE His word?

If I were to depend on logic I would say: If God couldn't preserve His word before Muhammad was born, then, He wouldn't be able to do it during Muhammad's time. So again, "Logic" tells me to stick to the older Scriptures, but I don't depend on logic; I trust and believe God when He calls Yeshua His "Beloved Son" in whom He is well pleased and that we should listen to Him who says I am the only way to God. I would see myself a fool or stupid to reject what God said about His son or reject what His son said about His father or Himself, and that is that He and his father are one; moreover, that there is only one God which Christians and Jews believed before Muhammad was born.

After all, Jesus said, "I am the Truth..." he didn't say I show you the truth. No other prophet before or after Jesus could make such a claim. He said it; I believe it, and that settles it for me. What do you believe about who Jesus really is?

[Haven]

It is not a question of logic. It is a question of trusting and believing what God said.

How do you know what God said apart from logic and reason? Without resorting to your intellectual faculties, how could you possibly know that a human being claiming to speak for God is actually speaking for God?

Leaning to our own logic and reason or feelings can lead us astray; so, we cannot use our infinite understanding to make decisions on Godly wisdom and spiritual discerned truths. We must believe what God said.

Once again, how do you know what God said? The Bible speaks for God, but so does the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Guru Granth Sahib, and the Jewish Tanakh. How can one know -- apart from evidence, logic, and reason -- which one (if any) is acutally speaking for God? How do you know you aren't mistaken?

God said Yeshua (Jesus) is His "Beloved son" . . .

Actually, God didn't say that. The authors of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John claimed that God said that. Why do you believe their claims and not the ones made by the angel Gabriel in the Qur'an claiming that God has no son? Because you were raised in Western culture? Because it "feels right?" Without appealing to logic, reason, or evidence, you have no good reason to believe the gospels over the Qur'an.

A better question to ask is why should one believe the Quran over the Scriptures that came before it from God . . .

Why should one believe the New Testament over the Scriptures (the Tanakh) that came before it, ostensibly from God?

or why should those that believe that Yeshua is the son of God believe that the Bible is corrupted when God said His word is established forever in heaven?

Why should one deny the evidence that the Bible (as well as the Qur'an) contains numerous factual errors and logical inconsistencies?

Are we supposed to believe that man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's POWER TO PRESERVE His word?

Are we supposed to deny that the demonstrably false (if taken literally) claims made by the Bible (for instance, the physically impossible global flood that never happened, the Jonah myth that never happened, and the census reported by Luke that never happened) are in fact demonstrably false?

I would see myself a fool or stupid to reject what God said about His son or reject what His son said about His father or Himself, and that is that He and his father are one; moreover, that there is only one God which Christians and Jews believed before Muhammad was born.

Once again, how do you know that God said anything? The Bible was written by human beings, contains the words of human beings, and anything ostensibly from God comes indirectly by way of human beings. What you have is the word of human beings writing about God, not the word of God.

He said it; I believe it, and that settles it for me.

A follower of Buddhism could say the same thing about the sayings of Siddhartha Gautama. A follower of Judaism could say the same things about the words of Maimonides. Why believe Jesus over these other religious figures?

Also, why do you believe Jesus is God? Why do you think Jesus was claiming to be God when he said "I am the Truth . . ." (most scholars don't see this as a claim to divinity)?

Just some thoughts for you to consider.

Peace,

Haven

[Burninglight]

It is not a question of logic. It is a question of trusting and believing what God said.

How do you know what God said apart from logic and reason? Without resorting to your intellectual faculties, how could you possibly know that a human being claiming to speak for God is actually speaking for God?

Leaning to our own logic and reason or feelings can lead us astray; so, we cannot use our infinite understanding to make decisions on Godly wisdom and spiritual discerned truths. We must believe what God said.

Once again, how do you know what God said? The Bible speaks for God, but so does the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Guru Granth Sahib, and the Jewish Tanakh. How can one know -- apart from evidence, logic, and reason -- which one (if any) is acutally speaking for God? How do you know you aren't mistaken?

God said Yeshua (Jesus) is His "Beloved son" . . .

Actually, God didn't say that. The authors of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John claimed that God said that. Why do you believe their claims and not the ones made by the angel Gabriel in the Qur'an claiming that God has no son? Because you were raised in Western culture? Because it "feels right?" Without appealing to logic, reason, or evidence, you have no good reason to believe the gospels over the Qur'an.

A better question to ask is why should one believe the Quran over the Scriptures that came before it from God . . .

Why should one believe the New Testament over the Scriptures (the Tanakh) that came before it, ostensibly from God?

or why should those that believe that Yeshua is the son of God believe that the Bible is corrupted when God said His word is established forever in heaven?

Why should one deny the evidence that the Bible (as well as the Qur'an) contains numerous factual errors and logical inconsistencies?

Are we supposed to believe that man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's POWER TO PRESERVE His word?

Are we supposed to deny that the demonstrably false (if taken literally) claims made by the Bible (for instance, the physically impossible global flood that never happened, the Jonah myth that never happened, and the census reported by Luke that never happened) are in fact demonstrably false?

I would see myself a fool or stupid to reject what God said about His son or reject what His son said about His father or Himself, and that is that He and his father are one; moreover, that there is only one God which Christians and Jews believed before Muhammad was born.

Once again, how do you know that God said anything? The Bible was written by human beings, contains the words of human beings, and anything ostensibly from God comes indirectly by way of human beings. What you have is the word of human beings writing about God, not the word of God.

He said it; I believe it, and that settles it for me.

A follower of Buddhism could say the same thing about the sayings of Siddhartha Gautama. A follower of Judaism could say the same things about the words of Maimonides. Why believe Jesus over these other religious figures?

Also, why do you believe Jesus is God? Why do you think Jesus was claiming to be God when he said "I am the Truth . . ." (most scholars don't see this as a claim to divinity)?

Just some thoughts for you to consider.

Peace,

Haven

We all use human logic and reasoning, but we shouldn't let that rule over God's word. For instance, Abraham was told by God to sacrafice his son; there is no logic in that and it passes human reason, but Abraham obey God instead of his feelings. IOW, our feelings make nice servants but a very poor spiritual leader.
As far as Buddhism and Islam, all these religion have good in them, and people benefit from them, but there is no other name given whereby we might be saved than the name of (Yeshua) Jesus Christ.

Where did I say Jesus was God? That is an inference you made based on what I said. I believe Jesus is who He says He is, and who God said He is in the Bible. I know who Jesus is to me. He is the Son of God. Who is he to you? Actually, God did say that. He said, "This my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; listen to Him"

You ask "how do (I) know God said anything at all?" I know by faith. Faith doesn't depend on logic or reason, but it is the substance as Scriptures say of the things hoped for and the evidence for the things not seen.

It is written the just shall live by faith. Without faith it is not possible to please God. One that comes to God must believe that He is and is a rewarder of those that dilligently seek Him.

As far as world flood, think again; there is abundant evidence for that. The ark of Noah was found on Mt. Arrarat. Sea shells on mountains are compelling evidence as well.
PBUY

[Yusef]

- Some Moslims believe Divinity for the Imams[Na'udoBAllah]..
- The History tells us discussions of between the Imams and excellent Scholars from Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Yogies, and more... then they converted and even some of them were claimant to divinity for them[Na'udoBAllah]..
- The dominant leaders of Ahle-Sonnat were students of the thousands students of the Imams..
- Some people were/are healed through miracles of them..
* You are dogmatic on your modern religion, and modern Jesus
and Prophet Jesus(a.s) doesn't have children,
But I'm myself from the generation of the Prophet(a.s) and six Imams(a.s),
But I don't have dogmatic.
and watch all religious channels
and read and hear and see anything about other religions.
I just follow logic and wisdom.
I say: down with anyone who obeys anythings or anyone except God[Allah same Yahweh].
Because I say I'm a Mosalman;
and Islam and Muslim mean "SUBMISSION" for God, and just God[Azzovajal].
I told here before:
What's your target?
Aphorism
* PEACE BE ALL WISE MEN OF ANY BELIEFS *

[Burninglight]

IMO, a modern Jesus comes from Islam who is different than the original Jesus of the Bible, and fyi, no Biblical Christians ever believed Jesus had children.

I am glad you are from the generation of the Prophet(a.s) and six Imams(a.s),
and you aren't dogmatic and that you watch all religious channels. Maybe you can answer my questions and doubts about Islam.

You say you just follow logic and wisdom. I follow Christ.
You say: "down with anyone who obeys anythings or anyone except God[Allah same Yahweh]." I say the same, but I believe the Allah of the Christians is not the same Allah of the Quran. Why? Because the Christian Allah has a son!

You say "Islam and Muslim mean "SUBMISSION" for God, and just God[Azzovajal]."
Muslim I know, but I thought Islam means peace?

I understand that there are two main kinds of Muslims those that believe the Sunnah and the Quran and those that are Quran only. Which one are you? The Quran only believe that the second part of the Shahadah is shirk, because it is an association. I could see why the Quran only Muslims would say that can you?

I read some of the Quran, and I cannot understand why Allah didn't understand the Christian concept of the trinity. Allah shows evidence of believing the trinity consisted of The father, Mary and the son. No Christian ever believed this, not even the Catholics. So why didn't Muhammad or Allah understand this very important aspect of the greatest religion on earth?

[Burninglight]

God said his word is established forever in heaven before Muhammad was born; so why do Muslims now say the Bible is corrupted? Muhammad never said that. God said He was well pleased with Jesus is His beloved son, and that we should listen to him. Why do Muslims say they love Jesus when they don't really know him from a Biblical perspective?

How can you say the name of God is YHWH when there is no evidence in the Quran or the Sunnah that His name is mentioned or known? If you believe the Bible is corrupted, tell me what part is it and what the motive is for corrupting it.

Do you believe man's power to corrupt God's word is stronger than God's power to preserve it? If man could corrupt God's established word in heaven before Muhammad's Quran than how can I be sure God can preserve His word after the Quran especially when it is common knowledge that Uthman (non prophet) burned the original Quran's and recompiled it. Where is the original Quran? Uthman was Allah's editor? What did he change in there? If nothing, why burn them?

[Yusef]

The Wisdom and logic told me:
There is God.
God is the one.
God is the Greatest.
God is not visible
God never is matterial
The mankind is His beloved creature,
So sent the good and bad as a law for them.
There is just one God,
So there is just one Law.
The Honesty and the wise without blindly thinks are the best guide for arrive at wisdom and discover the Truth[the best].
The logic tells me that:
"God mights be The ***est"
*** = anythings
I was just a freethinker who never follow any blindly things,
and even I didn't know anythings about any religions even our own Islam. But I upgrade my own honest and wisdom and obedience, then I researched and found Islam is the nearest logical belief to my own belief about the divinity, and is most logic religion.
but I allways hear and see other religions and beliefs.
If they are false, then I'll faithfully follow our own belief,
and if some of they are truth, then I accept that immediately.
-for example:
The most enemies of the people of Shi'eh are "Wahhabies",
they allways killed the people of Shi'eh
I allways had said: down with them, because they against The Imams.. but I researched and found No! They're devotee of The Imams, but they are "anti-sherk", and say: Why they obey the Imams and their Tombs! I did accept this belief of them immediately and I had researched this belief in the doctrine of Shi'eh, and discovered the doctrine of Shi'eh doesn't say obey The Imams, and says you should follow them!
It's like modern Christians that say blasphemous about God, but never Prophet Jesus(a.s) told that.
* So we should upgrade our own good behaviours, wisdom, logic, honestly...
and should clear our own from any sins, blindly dogma, and any badness.
Then same God will guides us!
Then we'll see great dreams too!
I claim I'm a wise person, and someone says I'm a wise person, I ready for wisdom test between us.
Everyone say we are truth.
And just wise men might discover which one is the most truth.
I still not found more logical than Shi'eh of Islam. And when discover every sayings better than this belief, I'll accept and submitt that immediately.

[Burninglight]

The Wisdom and logic told me:
There is God.
God is the one.
God is the Greatest.
God is not visible
God never is matterial
The mankind is His beloved creature,
So sent the good and bad as a law for them.
There is just one God,
So there is just one Law.
It's like modern Christians that say blasphemous about God, but never Prophet Jesus(a.s) told that.
Then same God will guides us!
Then we'll see great dreams too!
I claim I'm a wise person, and someone says I'm a wise person, I ready for wisdom test between us.
Everyone say we are truth.
I'll accept and submitt that immediately.

Friend PBUY:
I agree God is one, that is nothing new that Muhammad brought. The Jews and the Christians always believed in the oneness of God. All Muslims say blasphemous things about Jesus when the say He is not who He said he was and who God said he was in the Scripture that came before. The same God does not guide us. The god of Islam is not the same God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has a beloved son that the god of Islam hasn't; so, we are all dancing to the beat of a different drummer.

The Bible says Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9 obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

This is not in the Quran. There is no way I can received any security from the word's of Allah in the Quran. The Bible tells me what to do and how to live and walk in a security that is absent in Islam. For instance, it is written in 1 Peter:


Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

I do hope you come to the knowledge of truth for your soul's sake.
I don't believe you answered all my questions. Since you are wise and you are ready for a wisdom test between us do you want to debate me head to head?

[Yusef]

Dear Friend!
Have you ever seen a Moslim who has been converted??
Have you ever seen one who has a best car[German, Japanese, American, Korean, Italian]; then converts it with a Chinese or Iranian car??
Have you ever seen who says the technology of Africa is better than Japan??
So you could not convert me,
because I'm a Muslim, and a Muslim never convert to any religions.
There is just a doubt for Muslims and it's just the difference among their own beliefs[Shi'eh & Sonni].
An example of a wise and logical person is The "Haven", our friend! that's the absolutely clear in his writings.
but you say just childish answers![I'm sorry for say that],
because you say your own belief without any scientific and logical reasoning! Just blindly dogma:
You say God has son,
we say doesn't have!
You say we are the truth,
we say we are!
You say this Gospel is original,
we say isn't!
You say we're followers of Jesus(a.s),
we say we are real followers of Jesus(a.s)
And more that these aren't useful sayings for a discussion.
I say again and again and again that everyone say we ourselves are truth!
* PEACE BE UPON ALL WISE MEN *
* PBU ALL REAL JEWS AND CHRISTIANS *
they who are real follower of the original Books[Torah,Gospel,Qor'an]
PBU anyone who is clearing himself from any badness from: Jealousy, lie, Arrogance, blindly dogma, Sex(none-marriage) and...
They will find the Bestest(God willing)

[Burninglight]

You say we don't have the original Gospel, but we don't deny it. We say you don't have the original Quran and can prove it, but you deny it. It seems like most Muslims don't want to be confused with logic, reason, and facts, because their minds are made up to believe that everything is wrong if it contradicts the Quran. Let me use some logic and reason with you since you exalt it so highly: Since Allah and Muhammad didn't understand the concept of the Christian trinity. Why should we follow a god that has such limited knowledge?

Christians knew more about it than them or than what is documented in the Quran or Sunnah. Allah implied that the three are the Father, Mary and the son, because he says don't say three, and he also questions Jesus asking "Did you say take your mother and yourself as two Gods besides me?"

This question shows ignorance of what is stated in the Bible and in what Christians believe constitutes the trinity. Catholics are the only ones that call Mary the mother of God and pray to her, but even they never considered her part of the 3 (trinity). Can't Muslims see this is a server discrepancy? That is why very uninformed Christians convert to Islam, but don't kid yourself, some of the most knowledgable Muslims have convert to Christianity, and the ones that don't like Deedat, die horrific deaths that are full of fear and torment.

You say my comments and questions are childish, but I notice you don't answer them or take up my challenge. I am not trying to convert you, I just want you to have a proper understanding of the gospel.

The Bible says: Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[a] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.� 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
24 for“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.�
And this word is the good news that was preached to you.
1Peter

I can only hope and pray that God opens your eyes