Coming home . . .

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Haven

Coming home . . .

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Hi all,

I don't know if this is the best sub-forum to post this, and I don't know if this will be well-received, but here it is: after months of research, agonizing, and attempted debunking, I've decided to leave atheism and return to the faith of my childhood, Christianity. I don't have the time to post a long diatribe (yet, I will tomorrow), but in a nutshell the evidence for atheism was illusory and the evidence for (non-fundamentalist) Christian theism was simply too strong to ignore. I have always placed the pursuit of the truth over the pursuit of atheism, and that pursuit -- though it originally took me in an anti-theist position -- is bringing me home. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, mods, if you want to move this to RR, then please do. However, I am hoping to foster at least some discussion on atheism vs. theism, naturalism vs. Christianity, so I think this is a good place for it.

To everyone who's spoken with me here over the past few months, thanks, I really appreciate it. To my theist "foes," I'm sorry that I tried to attack your views; I now recognize you were likely right. To my fellow atheists, I thank you for your support. This doesn't mean that I will become some raving fundamentalist lunatic, I'm still into rationalism, it just led me in a new (old) direction. If you want more details, just ask.

Thanks :)

Debate questions: Is Haven crazy? Have I lost my mind? Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible?

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9381
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 907 times
Been thanked: 1261 times

Re: Coming home . . .

Post #31

Post by Clownboat »

theopoesis wrote:I suppose I should at least answer the OP questions:
Haven wrote: Debate questions:Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible? [/i]
(1) This would entirely depend upon your definition of what counts as admissible "evidence." I am inclined to consider Christian theism as a prerequisite for a plausible worldview (among possible others) which have the metaphysical components necessary to make evidence available.
What leads you to believe that "Christian" theism could be a prerequisite? I can understand arguing that theism could be a prerequisite, but how do you conclude that your theistic version of a belief is the correct one?
Could indoctrination not be a factor?

It's the same thing that confuses me when people see evidence of a god in the universe. I get the opinion of seeing a god (I disagree), but how is the jump made from that to the Christian god?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

Haven

Post #32

Post by Haven »

After thinking about this some more, doing some reading, and speaking with friends (both theist and atheist), I've had second thoughts about my de-deconversion. Emotion played a larger role than I care to admit, and when looking at it as a whole, there still isn't enough evidence to conclude that God(s) exist. My desire to believe, to "return home" overrode my knowledge that theism is untenable. I'm returning to atheism, and deeply embarrassed I posted this.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9381
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 907 times
Been thanked: 1261 times

Post #33

Post by Clownboat »

Haven wrote:After thinking about this some more, doing some reading, and speaking with friends (both theist and atheist), I've had second thoughts about my de-deconversion. Emotion played a larger role than I care to admit, and when looking at it as a whole, there still isn't enough evidence to conclude that God(s) exist. My desire to believe, to "return home" overrode my knowledge that theism is untenable. I'm returning to atheism, and deeply embarrassed I posted this.
Continue to examine things carefully, and hold on to that which is good. I think that is the best that we as humans can do.

I got that quote from a good book. :eyebrow:
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #34

Post by McCulloch »

McCulloch wrote: As in the case of all abstract entities, a definition is required.
theopoesis wrote: Please demonstrate this requirement. I do not find it self-evident.
I hold a utilitarian view on language. Language is used to communicate ideas. We need to have a common understanding of what the words mean in order that communication occurs when using words. A word like tree may not be precisely defined, but in most contexts, we know what is meant. I know that tall growing leafy thing over there is a tree. In other contexts, a definition may be required, in order to distinguish between a tree and other tree-like plants.

But in the case of an abstract entity, without a definition, we don't know what we are talking about. You say god and I, for one, do not know what you mean. Communication has not occurred.
theopoesis wrote: In point of fact, modern theories of language differ on this point. Many forms of speech-act philosophy, or Wittgenstein's idea of language games, suggest that words can still perform a function without necessarily having a clear definition, or at least one that can be "pictured."
I get confused reading Wittgenstein.
theopoesis wrote: There also may be counter-factuals to your claim. I can't think of an English example off the top of my head (perhaps English is a specifically definitional/pictorial language), but the Greek αν might suffice. αν is considered "untranslatable" and simply indicates a shift to making a clause conditional. It has no clear equivalent in Latin, English, or German, and seems to serve only a grammatical purpose. However, it still has a function. Since no one is alive who still speaks ancient Greek natively, we cannot know for sure. But I suspect it undermines your claim.
Let's see, you use a word which may serve some grammatical purpose in an ancient form of a language to prove that it is OK to have a noun in modern English communication with no discernible meaning. Right?
McCulloch wrote: Defining God as ineffable to me is useless. Sure there may be some ineffable entities out there. But, their existence is entirely moot due to their ineffability.

If God is truly ineffable, then you cannot say, "God want this" or "God has a Son" or even "God loves" without denying the god's ineffability.
theopoesis wrote: I think traditional Christian doctrine has claimed that God is ineffable in terms of God's quiddity, His "whatness." To say that God is ineffable is to say that we cannot explain what God is directly. But it need not necessarily follow that we cannot explain what God does, assuming God's quiddity is such that it can do anything at all.
I think that I may be able to follow this argument successfully. We may not know what God is, but we can know what God does. Right. An analogy might be Gravity. Physicists are still puzzled as to what it really is, but we can demonstrate its effect. You lose me on the God thing though. We don't know what it is we are talking about when we say God, and we also don't know what it is that the god does, or at least I don't know. Gravity could possibly be defined by its effect. God, well, perhaps you could define God by what it is you believe that the God did or does. I believe that some theists do that. They define God as the uncreated creative entity. Then they take a giant unsupported leap of faith from there to believing that God has a will, a son, a plan and a revelation to humanity.


__________________________________________________

Slopeshoulder wrote: I feel very strongly that evidentiary apologetics is beside the point.
I disagree. Evidence based reasoning is the foundation of rational thought.
Slopeshoulder wrote: Existence is not a category that pertains to God. God gods.
Is the word God a noun or a verb? Is the expression God gods nonsense or is it a meaningless tautology?
Slopeshoulder wrote: I don't think rationalism is a road to faith
We do agree here.
Slopeshoulder wrote: Rationality certainly can and must have a role in religious life, to ward off dangerous extremisms and silly beliefs,
What is to me are silly beliefs are to you may be articles of faith. What to you are silly beliefs may be to others, their articles of faith. How to distinguish, if we dispense with rational thought?

__________________________________________________

revelationtestament wrote: I do not care to live in a world where everyone is concerned only with themselves.
Neither do I. It is a hurtful stereotype then a theist implies that without a belief in God we atheist all must be self-absorbed hedonists.
revelationtestament wrote: This is rational as even Spock recognized: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.
You do know that Spock is a fictional character. In fact, his species is fictional.
revelationtestament wrote: God provides evidence for His existence,
On this we disagree.
revelationtestament wrote: This involves developing a relationship with Him - not using rational thought.
I have no idea what this means.
revelationtestament wrote: Maybe McCullough would agree with this - I have noticed his signature saying the truth will set you free.
I believe that truth does set us free. I am unaware that faith is a demonstrated valid way of discerning truth.
revelationtestament wrote: I believe one problem many would-be-Christians have is that they find themselves struggling with and rejecting so many things taught in the various churches because they seem irrational or seem to contradict one another or the scriptures. This is a problem brought about by man-made doctrines. I would posit in your continued search for truth and happiness to rely upon the scriptures. If you read something that seems right in a book, turn to God with it.
A church that teaches only what the Bible teaches. What a concept! Why has no one thought of that before! Abandon all man-made doctrines!

Note to any historians: this has been tried before. More than once.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

theopoesis
Guru
Posts: 1024
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:08 pm
Location: USA

Post #35

Post by theopoesis »

Clownboat wrote:
What leads you to believe that "Christian" theism could be a prerequisite? I can understand arguing that theism could be a prerequisite, but how do you conclude that your theistic version of a belief is the correct one?
Could indoctrination not be a factor?
Indoctrination certainly could be a factor. But I wasn't necessarily raised a Christian. I read my way into it at first, and only later had a conversion experience. I admit I'm only 27, so I read my way into it young, but I only irregularly attended church as a kid, and the church I went to was pretty watered down. They would just feed us snacks and teach us a short moral lesson. The sermon was full of stories and little substance. Still, I must admit that my becoming a Christian was much more likely given that I was born in a nation full of Christians. Still, given the Christian doctrine of providence, that need not be a hindrance to me. I just want to be up front.

That being said, Christian theism seems superior to me for several reasons, and I'll have to be brief here. It would take a series of books to argue this thoroughly:

(1) The Trinity: Though it is common to suggest that there are trinities in multiple religions, I am not convinced of the same through my reading in comparative religion. A triad is distinct from a Trinity. I am convinced that teleology helps us overcome Hume's objection that we cannot deduce "ought" from "is". We can do so through this logical form: If moral agent A wants outcome O, A ought to do O. If outcome O is the teleological purpose of that agent, and if failing to act according to one's purpose is in fact self-destructive, then we can formulate a moral system based on a mutual desire of agent A for his/her own benefit, and of God G (from whom teleology originates). It is cooperative in the Christian metaphysic, and it truly can move from is to ought.

Now, suppose that you were to hold to a polytheistic view of the world, or an atheistic view. You could potentially run into problems with the teleological component of this whole metaphysic. If there were two distinct sources of creation, there could potentially be two distinct purposes, two distinct teleologies, and two distinct moral systems. Therefore, for moral coherence, we would need to posit a single source of teleology: monotheism.

Having done so, we run into the Euthyphro dilemma, which argues from a false dichotomy that morality would be meaningless if derived from God. I resolve this dilemma through the suggestion that God acts according to his character. In patristic thought, you could explain this by claiming that God's actions are Personal, and undertaken by the Three Persons of the Trinity, who are perfect hypostasizations of the divine nature and character. Thus, they work in perfect harmony according to a real moral standard that is not contingent on their will nor is external to their nature (thereby defeating Euthyphro as I understand it). The trinity is necessary first because without the three persons instantiating the same nature, there could be division and teleology would break down. But why not simple monotheism, as in Islam or Judaism?

The answer is in considering that "God is love." If we defeat Euthyphro by referring to God's character, then we would hope that God's character was loving in order to maintain any degree of morality as we know it. But to be loving, there must be relationality. In fact, I've read some sociological arguments (not by Christians or specifically talking about God) that indicates that to truly judge a social action, you must judge the action with respect to a minimum of three social agents. Hence the Trinity. Hence Christianity. (That's all very abreviated, but I hope it at least shows that my decision to favor Christianity isn't only arbitrary.

(2) The Incarnation: I'll be much briefer here, but there are many metaphysical ramifications for the transcendence and immanence of God. In God the Father, God is fully transcendent, in God the Son, God is revealed in His person, but hidden in his nature, and in God the Spirit, God is revealed in nature, but hidden in person. (This is incredibly oversimplified.) The point is, this is a very complex metaphysical scheme of immanence and transcendence that provides a lot of opportunity to address what I consider to be some of the major antinomies of important modern secular worldviews.

Above that, I find Christian theology to be internally coherent. I find Christian worship and practice personally edifying. I find some degree (limited) of historical evidence supporting various historical claims of Christianity. I find internal testimony within the Scriptures that seems to intuitively attest to their inspiration. I recognize that all of these things are very subjective. But coupled with the general arguments for an axiomatic theism in general, I find them compelling. I do not, however, expect everyone to do so.

I hope that was a satisfactorily long answer.

User avatar
Slopeshoulder
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post #36

Post by Slopeshoulder »

Haven wrote:After thinking about this some more, doing some reading, and speaking with friends (both theist and atheist), I've had second thoughts about my de-deconversion. Emotion played a larger role than I care to admit, and when looking at it as a whole, there still isn't enough evidence to conclude that God(s) exist. My desire to believe, to "return home" overrode my knowledge that theism is untenable. I'm returning to atheism, and deeply embarrassed I posted this.
You're looking for a third thing. Chill, it'll show up.

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Post #37

Post by Goat »

Haven wrote:After thinking about this some more, doing some reading, and speaking with friends (both theist and atheist), I've had second thoughts about my de-deconversion. Emotion played a larger role than I care to admit, and when looking at it as a whole, there still isn't enough evidence to conclude that God(s) exist. My desire to believe, to "return home" overrode my knowledge that theism is untenable. I'm returning to atheism, and deeply embarrassed I posted this.
Is there anything wrong with being emotional about it? Emotion is part of being human. While there isn't enough evidence to show that God exists, there are other paths than 'strict atheism'. Slopeshoulder's path acknowledges that lack of evidence for God, but believes anyway.

THere is nothing wrong with being confused about it also :P (Just ask Confused).

This little story from Cnorman might be interesting to you
cnorman18
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

connermt
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5199
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:58 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Coming home . . .

Post #38

Post by connermt »

Haven wrote:Hi all,

I don't know if this is the best sub-forum to post this, and I don't know if this will be well-received, but here it is: after months of research, agonizing, and attempted debunking, I've decided to leave atheism and return to the faith of my childhood, Christianity. I don't have the time to post a long diatribe (yet, I will tomorrow), but in a nutshell the evidence for atheism was illusory and the evidence for (non-fundamentalist) Christian theism was simply too strong to ignore. I have always placed the pursuit of the truth over the pursuit of atheism, and that pursuit -- though it originally took me in an anti-theist position -- is bringing me home. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, mods, if you want to move this to RR, then please do. However, I am hoping to foster at least some discussion on atheism vs. theism, naturalism vs. Christianity, so I think this is a good place for it.

To everyone who's spoken with me here over the past few months, thanks, I really appreciate it. To my theist "foes," I'm sorry that I tried to attack your views; I now recognize you were likely right. To my fellow atheists, I thank you for your support. This doesn't mean that I will become some raving fundamentalist lunatic, I'm still into rationalism, it just led me in a new (old) direction. If you want more details, just ask.

Thanks :)

Debate questions: Is Haven crazy? Have I lost my mind? Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible?
Everyone has a choice. I choose to leave christianity and have zero intentions of rejoining that belief system.
That said, I truly hope you find what you're searching for. Good luck!

theopoesis
Guru
Posts: 1024
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:08 pm
Location: USA

Post #39

Post by theopoesis »

Haven wrote:After thinking about this some more, doing some reading, and speaking with friends (both theist and atheist), I've had second thoughts about my de-deconversion. Emotion played a larger role than I care to admit, and when looking at it as a whole, there still isn't enough evidence to conclude that God(s) exist. My desire to believe, to "return home" overrode my knowledge that theism is untenable. I'm returning to atheism, and deeply embarrassed I posted this.
For what it's worth, I'm a Christian who also agrees that there is not enough evidence to prove that God exists. But I've chosen another route of analysis. I'll suggest it in case it is helpful to you.

Perhaps it is best to select a few worldviews. Ones that don't define themselves by what they aren't, but constructively by what they are. So don't just look at theism and atheism, because then all you have are arguments that theism is or is not correct. You have no alternative. Instead, take several worldviews: Christian theism, Islamic Theism, Secular Humanism, whatever. Then ask a series of questions along the following lines:

(1) Does this worldview explain how I am a moral agent? Am I a moral agent? Is this worldview's explanation of this phenomenon adequate and internally logically consistent?
(2) Does this wordlview explain how I am a rational agent? Am I a rational agent? Is this worldview's explanation of this phenomenon adequate and internally logically consistent?
(3) Does this worldview explain how I am a (inter)personal agent? Am I a personal agent? Is this worldview's explanation of this phenomenon adequate and internally logically consistent?
(4) What does this worldview teach about what a human being is? Is this internally logically consistent?
(5) Do the conclusions given by the worldview in question for questions 1-4 cohere with one another, or do they logically contradict one another?

If one worldview seems to clearly answer these questions (and others like it) in ways that the others can't, go with that worldview. Because you have to be rational to be able to weigh evidence. You have to be moral to accept the evidence honestly, and you inescapably live as a person in an interpersonal world as you sift through the evidence. Any worldview that can't explain you as an evidence-gathering individual is inadequate.

If no worldview rises above the others at the end of this, at least you'll have a more thorough knowledge of the options.

User avatar
His Name Is John
Site Supporter
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:01 am
Location: London, England

Post #40

Post by His Name Is John »

The fact is Haven all those things you raised as to why you can't be an atheist make sense.

Stay a Christian for a while, learn what it is like to debate on this website as a Christian. Find the strenths and find the weakness (as you have done with atheism), then after a couple of weeks, re-asses your views.
Last edited by His Name Is John on Fri May 04, 2012 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“People generally quarrel because they cannot argue.�
- G.K. Chesterton

“A detective story generally describes six living men discussing how it is that a man is dead. A modern philosophic story generally describes six dead men discussing how any man can possibly be alive.�
- G.K. Chesterton

Post Reply