Why do some people believe mormons are not christian?

[Kuan]

So, you can probably tell I'm Mormon and I'm willing to debate my religion or answer questions. The purpose of this thread though is that I have had many people tell me I'm not Christian even though I believe in Jesus. I'm wondering why that is. Thanks for any answers!

[dianaiad]

.

Exhaustive to say the least. If I were a Mormon, I would run away from them as fast as my feet could travel. Everything you shared is right on. Muslims need to read this too! Thanks for sharing it.

ExhausTING, rather....and almost entirely wrong. Not simply 'wrong opinion,' but factually incorrect.

but then, most such stuff is, no matter what the target faith happens to be.

What makes you so sure?

Two things:

First, I'm a Mormon and I know what my beliefs are. Really. I've been studying them (and our history) for over fifty years, and am very familiar with the stuff written by critics. For instance, the article posted above, to which I just replied? Plagiarized from a Baptist anti-Mormon pamphlet written by Cooper P. Abrams III. Pretty typical stuff, actually.
--though this one is more courteously written than most.

Second, those who use such tactics against Mormons will use them against anybody else they don't like. Some of the stuff written about Catholicism makes Ed Decker look like a Mormon missionary, and The Maze of Mormonism look like an LDS missionary pamphlet.



Ah, well.

Oh, i didn't know you were. Do you consider yourself a Christian? Did you convert or were you born into it? If you don't mind.

Long story short?

Yes, and...

Both, sorta.

I'm a fourth generation Mormon..but neither one of my parents were "active." In fact, Dad was raised 'atheist,' and Mom went along with him for the first decade or so of their marriage. Neither my siblings nor I were given much religious training before we were in our teens.

Then the missionaries got 'holt of' my Dad, and whoosh....off we went, as completely a convert family as one could want.

[Burninglight]

.

Exhaustive to say the least. If I were a Mormon, I would run away from them as fast as my feet could travel. Everything you shared is right on. Muslims need to read this too! Thanks for sharing it.

ExhausTING, rather....and almost entirely wrong. Not simply 'wrong opinion,' but factually incorrect.

but then, most such stuff is, no matter what the target faith happens to be.

What makes you so sure?

Two things:

First, I'm a Mormon and I know what my beliefs are. Really. I've been studying them (and our history) for over fifty years, and am very familiar with the stuff written by critics. For instance, the article posted above, to which I just replied? Plagiarized from a Baptist anti-Mormon pamphlet written by Cooper P. Abrams III. Pretty typical stuff, actually.
--though this one is more courteously written than most.

Second, those who use such tactics against Mormons will use them against anybody else they don't like. Some of the stuff written about Catholicism makes Ed Decker look like a Mormon missionary, and The Maze of Mormonism look like an LDS missionary pamphlet.



Ah, well.

Oh, i didn't know you were. Do you consider yourself a Christian? Did you convert or were you born into it? If you don't mind.

Long story short?

Yes, and...

Both, sorta.

I'm a fourth generation Mormon..but neither one of my parents were "active." In fact, Dad was raised 'atheist,' and Mom went along with him for the first decade or so of their marriage. Neither my siblings nor I were given much religious training before we were in our teens.

Then the missionaries got 'holt of' my Dad, and whoosh....off we went, as completely a convert family as one could want.

Have you had a burning in the bossom? So, you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet that spoke the truth. Muslims believe the last prophet was Muhammad to fix the Bible and Joseph Smith came to fix the churches by starting his own, and putting together the book of Mormon to stabilize the Bible. The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus through Jesus and for Jesus. Since Satan is his creation, how can he be the spiritual brother to His own creation. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence!

[dianaiad]

Have you had a burning in the bossom? So, you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet that spoke the truth. Muslims believe the last prophet was Muhammad to fix the Bible and Joseph Smith came to fix the churches by starting his own, and putting together the book of Mormon to stabilize the Bible. The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus through Jesus and for Jesus. Since Satan is his creation, how can he be the spiritual brother to His own creation. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence!

Oh, I should have known not to bite. (sigh)

Actually, I had that 'burning in the bosom' (not bossom) that was described by the apostles as the reason they knew that the risen Christ had walked with them: Luke 24:32. You know, that 'did our hearts not burn within us?" part.

Other people describe it as a witness by the Holy Ghost. If you don't like the specific words used to describe an indescribable spiritual experience, you think up your own. As for me, I don't really have a problem with the wording used by apostles.

By the way, I don't think Muslims would be all that thrilled to find out that you claim that the Koran is simply a 'fix' to the bible, and the Book of Mormon wasn't given to us to 'stabilize' the bible, either---whatever the flip that's supposed to mean.

As for the bit about Satan...well, yes, we do believe that 'all things' were created by God the Father through Jesus Christ, His Son. We are NOT Trinitarians.

....and the bible doesn't say what you claim it does.

[Burninglight]

Have you had a burning in the bossom? So, you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet that spoke the truth. Muslims believe the last prophet was Muhammad to fix the Bible and Joseph Smith came to fix the churches by starting his own, and putting together the book of Mormon to stabilize the Bible. The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus through Jesus and for Jesus. Since Satan is his creation, how can he be the spiritual brother to His own creation. Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence!

Oh, I should have known not to bite. (sigh)

Actually, I had that 'burning in the bosom' (not bossom) that was described by the apostles as the reason they knew that the risen Christ had walked with them: Luke 24:32. You know, that 'did our hearts not burn within us?" part.

Other people describe it as a witness by the Holy Ghost. If you don't like the specific words used to describe an indescribable spiritual experience, you think up your own. As for me, I don't really have a problem with the wording used by apostles.

By the way, I don't think Muslims would be all that thrilled to find out that you claim that the Koran is simply a 'fix' to the bible, and the Book of Mormon wasn't given to us to 'stabilize' the bible, either---whatever the flip that's supposed to mean.

As for the bit about Satan...well, yes, we do believe that 'all things' were created by God the Father through Jesus Christ, His Son. We are NOT Trinitarians.

....and the bible doesn't say what you claim it does.

Muslims shouldn't have a hard time with that since they believe the Quran was supposed to confirm the Bible, and they believe the Bible is corrupted. So I call it fix. if you don't like that term, like you said to me use your own.

As far as I know, Mormons don't believe the Bible is corrupted. Moreover, Mormon missionaries better get their story straight, because it isn't a consistent message. An LDS missionary told me that the Bible can be interpreted so many ways.

He gave me this illustration. If you take a Bible and put a nail through it, you can still turn it and come up with different views and interpretations, but the Book of Mormon puts a second nail in it to give it stabililty so it stays in one direction. That's what the flip I meant. I got it from your missionaries. From what you say, I can tell they don't know what they are talking about or is it you?

So what is the purpose of the book of Mormons and how do you see the Bible? You don't believe in the trinity, that is what makes us Christians. I can see how that puts a spin on the Bible and confusion as to why you consider yourselves Christians!
What did I claim the Bible says that it doesn't?
Finally, you didn't answer my question. How can Jesus be the brother of His own creation?

Peace to truth seekers

[dianaiad]

As far as I know, Mormons don't believe the Bible is corrupted.

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Article of Faith # 8.

Moreover, Mormon missionaries better get their story straight, because it isn't a consistent message. An LDS missionary told me that the Bible can be interpreted so many ways.

...and there are HOW many Christian sects out there, each one interpreting it slightly differently? And there are HOW many different versions/translations of the Bible? You think that missionary was wrong?

He gave me this illustration. If you take a Bible and put a nail through it, you can still turn it and come up with different views and interpretations, but the Book of Mormon puts a second nail in it to give it stabililty so it stays in one direction. That's what the flip I meant. I got it from your missionaries. From what you say, I can tell they don't know what they are talking about or is it you?

Oh, I see....you got it from an rhetorical device used by a missionary. Not a bad one, either...my apologies. I didn't quite understand what you were getting at.

.........but I don't think you understood quite what the missionary was saying, either. We consider the Book of Mormon to be 'another testament of Christ." Not to change or 'stabilize' the BIBLE--but to confirm and direct religious truth which is contained IN the Bible. The Book of Mormon 'stabilizes' the bible exactly the same way the Bible stabilizes the Book of Mormon--or the way the NT 'stabilizes the OT, or the gospel of Luke 'stabilizes' the gospel of John--or Acts 'stabilizes' Peter's letters. Exactly that way, no more and no less.

So what is the purpose of the book of Mormons and how do you see the Bible? You don't believe in the trinity, that is what makes us Christians.

No, what makes us Christians is our belief in Jesus Christ. There are many Christians who are not Trinitarians; it's not a requirement.

But if you are going to get picky, we DO believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are the three members of the Godhead; each God. However, we believe that They are completely different Persons. God the Father is not Jesus, Jesus is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is neither the Father nor the Son.

In other words, we are not the sort of Trinitarians that most modern Trinitarians describe the Three as---we are not modalists.

I can see how that puts a spin on the Bible and confusion as to why you consider yourselves Christians!
What did I claim the Bible says that it doesn't?

It doesn't say that one must be a Trinitarian in order to be Christian, for one thing.

Finally, you didn't answer my question. How can Jesus be the brother of His own creation?

Yes, I did.
I don't believe that we are God's creations. I believe that we are His children--with everything that implies. ALL of us are His children. That includes Satan and all his followers, the angels (which we believe are not separate creations...but simply us with the job description 'messengers') and us. So spiritually everybody is a child of God, even those children who rebelled. So yeah, in that sense Satan is Jesus' brother--but in that sense so are you Satan's brother (and yes, to Jesus as well); in that sense, and in that sense only.

In fact, the first time I ever heard someone say to me, in terms of shock and disbelief..."you think that Jesus and Satan are brothers!" My first thought was...yeah, so--aren't we all? Because we certainly are all siblings, in that sense--and that is the sense in which we believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

It is, quite frankly, one of the purely DUMBEST arguments against Mormonism I've ever heard, if you want to know the truth. I mean....really? THAT'S what you have conniptions over? Y'all don't even understand what that actually IMPLIES! If you did, THAT is what you would be talking about. Sheesh.

Now, since according to the story (both yours and mine) Satan rebelled and separated from the rest of us, he sorta took himself out of the family genealogy. He certainly will never have a body, live, die, or be resurrected the way you and I will be.

............and Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. Not simply the spiritual Son of God the way the rest of us are, but physically, as well. Satan doesn't share any of that.

Peace to truth seekers

OK. Tell that to Walter Martin, Ed Decker and Jack Chick.

[Burninglight]

As far as I know, Mormons don't believe the Bible is corrupted.

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Article of Faith # 8.

Moreover, Mormon missionaries better get their story straight, because it isn't a consistent message. An LDS missionary told me that the Bible can be interpreted so many ways.

...and there are HOW many Christian sects out there, each one interpreting it slightly differently? And there are HOW many different versions/translations of the Bible? You think that missionary was wrong?

He gave me this illustration. If you take a Bible and put a nail through it, you can still turn it and come up with different views and interpretations, but the Book of Mormon puts a second nail in it to give it stabililty so it stays in one direction. That's what the flip I meant. I got it from your missionaries. From what you say, I can tell they don't know what they are talking about or is it you?

Oh, I see....you got it from an rhetorical device used by a missionary. Not a bad one, either...my apologies. I didn't quite understand what you were getting at.

.........but I don't think you understood quite what the missionary was saying, either. We consider the Book of Mormon to be 'another testament of Christ." Not to change or 'stabilize' the BIBLE--but to confirm and direct religious truth which is contained IN the Bible. The Book of Mormon 'stabilizes' the bible exactly the same way the Bible stabilizes the Book of Mormon--or the way the NT 'stabilizes the OT, or the gospel of Luke 'stabilizes' the gospel of John--or Acts 'stabilizes' Peter's letters. Exactly that way, no more and no less.

So what is the purpose of the book of Mormons and how do you see the Bible? You don't believe in the trinity, that is what makes us Christians.

No, what makes us Christians is our belief in Jesus Christ. There are many Christians who are not Trinitarians; it's not a requirement.

But if you are going to get picky, we DO believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are the three members of the Godhead; each God. However, we believe that They are completely different Persons. God the Father is not Jesus, Jesus is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is neither the Father nor the Son.

In other words, we are not the sort of Trinitarians that most modern Trinitarians describe the Three as---we are not modalists.

I can see how that puts a spin on the Bible and confusion as to why you consider yourselves Christians!
What did I claim the Bible says that it doesn't?

It doesn't say that one must be a Trinitarian in order to be Christian, for one thing.

Finally, you didn't answer my question. How can Jesus be the brother of His own creation?

Yes, I did.
I don't believe that we are God's creations. I believe that we are His children--with everything that implies. ALL of us are His children. That includes Satan and all his followers, the angels (which we believe are not separate creations...but simply us with the job description 'messengers') and us. So spiritually everybody is a child of God, even those children who rebelled. So yeah, in that sense Satan is Jesus' brother--but in that sense so are you Satan's brother (and yes, to Jesus as well); in that sense, and in that sense only.

In fact, the first time I ever heard someone say to me, in terms of shock and disbelief..."you think that Jesus and Satan are brothers!" My first thought was...yeah, so--aren't we all? Because we certainly are all siblings, in that sense--and that is the sense in which we believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

It is, quite frankly, one of the purely DUMBEST arguments against Mormonism I've ever heard, if you want to know the truth. I mean....really? THAT'S what you have conniptions over? Y'all don't even understand what that actually IMPLIES! If you did, THAT is what you would be talking about. Sheesh.

Now, since according to the story (both yours and mine) Satan rebelled and separated from the rest of us, he sorta took himself out of the family genealogy. He certainly will never have a body, live, die, or be resurrected the way you and I will be.

............and Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. Not simply the spiritual Son of God the way the rest of us are, but physically, as well. Satan doesn't share any of that.

Peace to truth seekers

OK. Tell that to Walter Martin, Ed Decker and Jack Chick.

Yes, what makes us true Christians is believing in Jesus Christ as the only hope of salvation. It is being born again; it is trusting God's grace through our faith; It is believing God when he said there was no god before me nor shall there be after me; It is believing that Jesus is the unique son of God born of a virgin and without sin; the word of God incarnate; it is making Jesus the Lord of our life not just believing in Him. It is not to believe in the Adam god. It is to believe God is Spirit; It is to believe God is Holy; it is to believe that God is the Holy Spirit. Those who don't believe that are not True Biblical Christians.

Mormons give the appearance of having sound Christian doctrine by the Christian terms they use, but they mean something completely different than that of the congregation of churches. IMO, it is a cult. Cults say they are the only ones doing the ministry of God; Its leaders are only accountable to God. They say their way is the only true way. Cults have pride that go along with believing this. Some are better at hiding it than others.

Joseph Smith plagiarized from the KJV of the Bible saying he found golden plates. I read some of it and could see that he copied the translational errors in the KJV. True Biblical Christians belief that we are all God's creation, but we are not all God's children. Jesus said, "Ye are of your father the devil to the scribes and pharisees. They are the ones with the lying pens. So God has his children and Satan has his. Joseph Smith like Muhammad was not a confirmed prophet. In order to be a confirmed prophet he has to be of the right ancestral line; have done a miracle or given a prophecy that happens; be confirmed by other prophets and know the name of God. Joseph Smith like Muhammad doesn't pass the test!

Mormons have a different gospel that is no gospel at all and a different Jesus to go with it. True Biblical Christians believe that in the beginning was the word (Jesus) the Word was with God and the word was God. Jesus was the word God used to speak all things into existence without Him not anything was made that was made. All things were made by Jesus for Jesus and through Jesus. God was never a man and man will never become God. God said it Himself "I know no God before me and no god shall come after me." God won't let it happen.
The book of Mormon is another testament of another Jesus; not my Jesus not our Jesus!!!
Peace to truth seekers

[dianaiad]

Yes, what makes us true Christians is believing in Jesus Christ as the only hope of salvation.

We really do need to rename the 'True Scott' fallacy.

It is being born again; it is trusting God's grace through our faith; It is believing God when he said there was no god before me nor shall there be after me; It is believing that Jesus is the unique son of God born of a virgin and without sin; the word of God incarnate; it is making Jesus the Lord of our life not just believing in Him.

Well, you have no quarrel with Mormons in any of the above. You realize that, yes?

It is not to believe in the Adam god.

You have absolutely no idea what "Adam god" is. That's obvious by the way you brought it up. However, feel free to explain it.

It is to believe God is Spirit;

..and we must 'worship Him in spirit and truth." Gotcha.

It is to believe God is Holy; it is to believe that God is the Holy Spirit. [/quote\

I see. You ARE a modalist. That's supposed to be a heresy, you realize this, yes?

Those who don't believe that are not True Biblical Christians.

I'll concede that you don't think so. You are, of course, wrong about that.

Mormons give the appearance of having sound Christian doctrine by the Christian terms they use, but they mean something completely different than that of the congregation of churches. IMO, it is a cult. Cults say they are the only ones doing the ministry of God;

Well, that leaves us out, since we don't claim that.

Its leaders are only accountable to God.

Aren't all religious leaders?

They say their way is the only true way.

Isn't that what you are saying?

Cults have pride that go along with believing this. Some are better at hiding it than others.

I'd say so, yes. Some project a great deal, as well.

Joseph Smith plagiarized from the KJV of the Bible saying he found golden plates.

There's something in the Bible about new scriptures being found on golden plates?

I read some of it and could see that he copied the translational errors in the KJV.

I rather imagine that he did. After all, he, like you, believed that the KJV was to be relied upon as a good translation. So when he got to those areas in the BoM which were obviously scriptures brought with the folks who left the old lands, he decided not to reinvent the wheel, and trust to what he thought was fairly trustworthy rather than do work that had already been done. That's MY opinion of what happened, anyway.

How ironic it is that you, who claim that the bible is absolute truth and is the Word of God, are claiming that Joseph Smith shouldn't have done that because there are ERRORS in the Bible?

Which side of this argument are you taking?

True Biblical Christians belief that we are all God's creation, but we are not all God's children.

Really? Where does it say that?

Jesus said, "Ye are of your father the devil to the scribes and pharisees. They are the ones with the lying pens. So God has his children and Satan has his.

So..you are claiming that Satan was literally the father of those Pharisees and scribes? Wanna tell me how that happened, exactly?

Joseph Smith like Muhammad was not a confirmed prophet.

Oddly enough, I disagree with you about Joseph Smith. I hate to break this to you...I'll put this as gently as I can.

You don't get to decide that.

In order to be a confirmed prophet he has to be of the right ancestral line; have done a miracle or given a prophecy that happens; be confirmed by other prophets and know the name of God. Joseph Smith like Muhammad doesn't pass the test!

Uh, HUH????? Ok, you have a whole bunch of requirements that I've not heard of. Care to expound on this? Especially with some proof that these ARE requirements?

Mormons have a different gospel that is no gospel at all and a different Jesus to go with it. True Biblical Christians believe that in the beginning was the word (Jesus) the Word was with God and the word was God. Jesus was the word God used to speak all things into existence without Him not anything was made that was made. All things were made by Jesus for Jesus and through Jesus. God was never a man and man will never become God. God said it Himself "I know no God before me and no god shall come after me." God won't let it happen.
The book of Mormon is another testament of another Jesus; not my Jesus not our Jesus!!!
Peace to truth seekers

Why do I even try?

[ttruscott]

Waaaaaaayback when we were just being exposed to our pre-conception existence we heard that the Mormons also believed this ideology so we set up a meeting with a local elder who showed up with a couple of stalwarts.

We explained our search and they explained their pov and we stumbled over some things they believed and we said we did not interpret the scriptures the same as they did due to the leading of our the Holy Spirit,

and with cold fire in his eye the elder said, "Your holy spirit is of the devil."

That was that, for sure.

Peace, Ted

[dianaiad]

Waaaaaaayback when we were just being exposed to our pre-conception existence we heard that the Mormons also believed this ideology so we set up a meeting with a local elder who showed up with a couple of stalwarts.

We explained our search and they explained their pov and we stumbled over some things they believed and we said we did not interpret the scriptures the same as they did due to the leading of our the Holy Spirit,

and with cold fire in his eye the elder said, "Your holy spirit is of the devil."

That was that, for sure.

Peace, Ted

So you've been paying Mormons back ever since?

Gotcha.

[Mr. LongView]

It's all good!

Seventh day, assembly of Yahweh, choose your poison.

Essentially christian in my mind.

Unlike beer, there is no such thing as a lite christian.

Claim what you will.

West side!