Genesis and Science

hiramabbi2 · Post by **hiramabbi2** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:32 am

My Take - Open for Discussion:

"In the beginning God Created the heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, (Water) and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements. The text is correct in showing that the water was not directly created, or spoken into being, because it consists of elements of the Air or Atmosphere. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and came from the Atmosphere and is not shown as a separate creation.

This is correct in today's scientific knowledge, but IF the Bible were written by Ancient men, Moses would not have known this. He would have written that in the beginning God created the Air, Dust, and Water, but since God Himself is the Author, He correctly shows that the Atmosphere and Ground were created, and the Water was not a separate creation but instead, came from the Atmosphere.

The Hungry Atheist · Post by **The Hungry Atheist** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:17 am

The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements.

How do you figure that? None of those is actually a chemical element, of which there are now upwards of a hundred that make up the Universe we live in. Air has a lot of stuff in, roughly 79% Nitrogen and 20% Oxygen, but it varies depending on humidity and stuff. Water is a compund of hydrogen and oxygen, like you say, but doesn't come from the air - for a start, there's no hydrogen in the air on Earth.

IF the Bible were written by Ancient men...

... they could've written things in whatever order they like, so long as it made some kind of "sense" by the minimal knowledge of the world they had at the time. The vast majority of our discoveries about how the world works makes us realise that if God really dictate the entire Bible, he really should've known better.

hiramabbi2 · Post by **hiramabbi2** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:30 pm

hiramabbi2 wrote:My Take - Open for Discussion:

"In the beginning God Created the heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, (Water) and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements. The text is correct in showing that the water was not directly created, or spoken into being, because it consists of elements of the Air or Atmosphere. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and came from the Atmosphere and is not shown as a separate creation.

This is correct in today's scientific knowledge, but IF the Bible were written by Ancient men, Moses would not have known this. He would have written that in the beginning God created the Air, Dust, and Water, but since God Himself is the Author, He correctly shows that the Atmosphere and Ground were created, and the Water was not a separate creation but instead, came from the Atmosphere.

The Hungry Atheist wrote:
How do you figure that? None of those is actually a chemical element, of which there are now upwards of a hundred that make up the Universe we live in. Air has a lot of stuff in, roughly 79% Nitrogen and 20% Oxygen, but it varies depending on humidity and stuff. Water is a compund of hydrogen and oxygen, like you say, but doesn't come from the air - for a start, there's no hydrogen in the air on Earth.

Let me show how/what the Scripture says about this from the start to answer your question...

GENESIS 2
v4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

v5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

v6 But there went up a mist (evaporation) from the earth, and watered (condensation) the whole face of the ground.

I suggest you study the Scripture more seriously so that you'll understand what the Author of the Genesis was actually saying from the start, before any your "scientist" ever came into existence.

ENIGMA · Post by **ENIGMA** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:39 pm

v6 But there went up a mist (evaporation) from the earth, and watered (condensation) the whole face of the ground.

I suggest you study the Scripture more seriously so that you'll understand what the Author of the Genesis was actually saying from the start, before any your "scientist" ever came into existence.

Hmm, you know, it sounds like knowledge that would have been immediately apparent to any farmer/goat herder at the time. After all, what is rain? Water falling from the sky. Why do the village water buckets get lighter on a hot day? Because water returns back up to the sky to fall again.

So in other words, you got nothing... figures.

hiramabbi2 · Post by **hiramabbi2** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:38 pm

ENIGMA wrote:
v6 But there went up a mist (evaporation) from the earth, and watered (condensation) the whole face of the ground.

I suggest you study the Scripture more seriously so that you'll understand what the Author of the Genesis was actually saying from the start, before any your "scientist" ever came into existence.
Hmm, you know, it sounds like knowledge that would have been immediately apparent to any farmer/goat herder at the time. After all, what is rain? Water falling from the sky. Why do the village water buckets get lighter on a hot day? Because water returns back up to the sky to fall again.

So in other words, you got nothing... figures.

Could somebody please help me understand if this Atheist Poster is actually complaining, whining or a making a rebuttal?

It seems to me, the poster is agreeing to the scientific process of evaporation and condensation as described in detail in the Book of Genesis, did he not? I thought so.

I like to hear from THA if I satisfied his curiosity, from the "start", where is he?

ENIGMA · Post by **ENIGMA** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:43 am

Could somebody please help me understand if this Atheist Poster is actually complaining, whining or a making a rebuttal?

How about generally showing how this particular bit of knowledge shows no more inspiration than can be provided by a simple farmer of the time period in question.

Now, perhaps you can point me to the passage where Jesus mentions relativity. Or Newtonian mechanics for that matter...

It seems to me, the poster is agreeing to the scientific process of evaporation and condensation as described in detail in the Book of Genesis, did he not? I thought so.

The Bali temple calendar happens to somehow exactly match-up for how one should grow rice in a relatively high yield and a sustainable manner. Any plans of converting? I didn't think so.

The Hungry Atheist · Post by **The Hungry Atheist** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:06 pm

I think the point, himarabbi2, is that the scripture isn't question isn't really displaying any particularly amazing insight. Evaporation and condensation of water are both fairly easily observable phenomena - even without an idea of the water cycle, you can watch water disappear from puddles and see rain falling from the sky. I don't know of any Bible claims that are so incredible that it seems more likely that God dictated every word of it himself, than that men simply did their best at working things out. Show me some infeasibly accurate and specific observations or predictions they made, and I might start giving your ideas some credence.

hiramabbi2 · Post by **hiramabbi2** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:50 pm

hiramabbi2 wrote:My Take - Open for Discussion:

"In the beginning God Created the heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, (Water) and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements. The text is correct in showing that the water was not directly created, or spoken into being, because it consists of elements of the Air or Atmosphere. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and came from the Atmosphere and is not shown as a separate creation.

This is correct in today's scientific knowledge, but IF the Bible were written by Ancient men, Moses would not have known this. He would have written that in the beginning God created the Air, Dust, and Water, but since God Himself is the Author, He correctly shows that the Atmosphere and Ground were created, and the Water was not a separate creation but instead, came from the Atmosphere.

The Hungry Atheist wrote:I think the point, himarabbi2, is that the scripture isn't question isn't really displaying any particularly amazing insight. Evaporation and condensation of water are both fairly easily observable phenomena - even without an idea of the water cycle, you can watch water disappear from puddles and see rain falling from the sky. I don't know of any Bible claims that are so incredible that it seems more likely that God dictated every word of it himself, than that men simply did their best at working things out. Show me some infeasibly accurate and specific observations or predictions they made, and I might start giving your ideas some credence.

I believe the point you were originally contesting was my Scriptural analysis of the Creation -- having the 3 elements neccesary for physical life form. Most specifically you were questioning the "Air or Atmosphere" not containing hydrogen "to start with", am I right?

I also honestly believe, you've been directly refuted by showing you exactly the passages documenting how the hydrogen came about in the atmosphere "from the start" which you were contesting, didn't I!

For you to down play now -- your biblical ignorance -- and make "a water puddles" argument about the process of evaporation and condensation is being ingenious

especially, when you're the one who brought the subject up "to start with".

The Hungry Atheist · Post by **The Hungry Atheist** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:01 pm

Okay, first of all, why do you always put the phrases "from the start" and "to start with" in bold quotes?

Anyway, I'm really not quite sure what exactly in particular you're arguing here. You haven't justified your statement "Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements", which I still claim is erroneous. There is also no hydrogen in the atmosphere, except possible trace elements, so I don't know quite why you're still talking about that. You really might have to clarify your point here.

Also, my "ingenious

" argument regarding the water puddles was intended to demonstrate that this particular instance of "Biblical wisdom" seems rather less than divine. Is this not a valid argument, or one simply not worth refuting, or what?

seventil · Post by **seventil** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:10 pm

ENIGMA wrote:
Could somebody please help me understand if this Atheist Poster is actually complaining, whining or a making a rebuttal?
How about generally showing how this particular bit of knowledge shows no more inspiration than can be provided by a simple farmer of the time period in question.

Now, perhaps you can point me to the passage where Jesus mentions relativity. Or Newtonian mechanics for that matter...

The word shamayim is used in the Bible to refer to the astronomical universe. The word itself is connected with the phrase stretched out eleven times in the Old Testament (Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; Zachariah 12:1). The concept here is that the cosmos is not static but the verb natah is used in an active participle form indicating that the process is ongoing.

^^^ Funny you mentioned relativity... It was Einstein's theory of relativity and the expanding universe that actually granted the Scripture above scientific merit.

source from: http://www.doesgodexist.org/MayJun01/Th ... Bible.html