When Does The Bible Become Fact?

[AcrylicInk]

If you don't believe the Bible is literally true - particularly the creation story - at what point do you believe it becomes historical fact?

[cnorman18]

Not many people still believe that God created the earth in six 24-hour days, or that Adam and Eve were real people - or at least not the only two humans created. A lot of Christians believe they are myths that represent God's power and the fact that he created everything.

For people who don't believe these stories, when do you think the Bible becomes fact? For example is Noah's Ark real or just a myth? Or Moses and the exile out of Egypt?

Sorry, I was half asleep when I wrote the original question

First: Be careful sleeping and typing. It could result in some very bad things about you ending up on Facebook.

Second:
The O.P.
I guess the way I would view that is if you believe its the inerrant word of God then one must also believe its rooted in fact. 144 hrs to recreate the earth for man (the last 24 he rested so the only creation would be the establishment of the Sabbath). An actual World Flood. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Tower of Babel (creation of multiple languages). Exodus from Egypt. Conquest of Canaan. Establishment of Davidic Throne. You get the point. Unless it is the inerrant word of God and he's a fiction writer. That could also be possible.

I guess the point it becomes fact is when you decide to believe it is the inerrant word of God and accept that. Otherwise you have little to base your belief on.

My two cents.

Have a blessed day.

And mine:

"Deciding to believe" something doesn't seem like much to base anything on...

I do see what you mean. However, when you actually look at the truth of the matter, you will see that much of what we know is based on what we 'decide' is right or wrong. We all make our own decisions from simple stuff, like what car companies we buy from and what sports teams we prefer, to the more intensive like which politicians we vote for and which companies we work for. These are everyday decisions we all make based off what we 'decide'.

Then there is the larger life altering decisions about what we believe and disbelieve. Do you believe what the Episcopalians do? What about the Jews? Maybe you wish follow the paths of the Hindu? Or perhaps you will 'decide' to follow atheism or agnosticism?

It goes on down the line with many other things. You and I weren't there when the Civil War was fought. So we have to 'decide' which of many historians guesses is the 'real' reason we 'think' the war was fought. We have to use bits and pieces of documents and assorted facts and then draw conclusions. Not all of said conclusions will agree. So then we 'decide' what it is the best fit for our mind.

Perhaps when you read Carl Sagan you 'decide' he is smart but way off base. Perhaps when you read T.D. Jakes you feel he is right on and you 'decide' that he is right about God. Maybe when you read Richard Dawkins you 'decide' he is right about evolution and that there is no god. Perhaps when you read Ruth Tucker you decide she is a crack pot and needs to spend time in an asylum.

Either way you are deciding what to believe. You may not like that phrase but it is still correct. I have 'decided' that I can prove enough that the Bible is indeed fact, that I follow it. Not everyone can see what I see due to current beliefs blocking them, shaky foundations not allowing them to build well or an outright hostile mind that will not see it.

That's fine though. My beliefs are mine. They are for me to have and follow. I love to share them with others and I fully accept the fact that many hate them. But thats their decision. It's what they 'decided'.

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve,... ,as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.� - Joshua 24:15

That's very well said, and there's actually very little of that with which I would disagree. About the only thing that I would seriously question is this:

"Not everyone can see what I see due to current beliefs blocking them, shaky foundations not allowing them to build well or an outright hostile mind that will not see it."

There are several other possible reasons, chief among them that some might not see what you see because it might not be there. You are assuming that your beliefs are absolutely right; I don't agree -- but then I don't think that it fundamentally matters, either. Here is a column that explains, I think, why I don't have to be wrong for you to be right, and vice versa. We can believe differently, and both of us still serve the Good and the True.

I would also note that not agreeing with your beliefs is not the same as "hating" them, whatever you have been told. I retain a great deal of respect and even reverence for the Christian faith, even though it is no longer my own.

Of course, I have a small advantage there. In my religion, you see, what you BELIEVE -- a.k.a. what you THINK -- doesn't matter much; what you DO is of primary importance, and indeed what you think only matters at all insofar as it affects what you do. Indeed, the Jewish religion has no formal doctrines, no beliefs which one must hold (though there are some which are forbidden) in order to be "saved" -- and of course being "saved" is of no interest to us either. That is not a Jewish concept but a Christian one, like that of Hell. Judaism is concerned with THIS world and THIS life; the next, if there is one -- we have no formal teachings on that subject either -- we leave to God. If there is one. And, if there is a next life, no one will be excluded from it on account of believing the wrong things.

Peace to you. Believe what you will, and so will I. I do not say you are condemned for believing as you do; please grant me the same courtesy.

[Fides et Veritas]

That's very well said, and there's actually very little of that with which I would disagree. About the only thing that I would seriously question is this:

"Not everyone can see what I see due to current beliefs blocking them, shaky foundations not allowing them to build well or an outright hostile mind that will not see it."

There are several other possible reasons, chief among them that some might not see what you see because it might not be there. You are assuming that your beliefs are absolutely right; I don't agree -- but then I don't think that it fundamentally matters, either. Here is a column that explains, I think, why I don't have to be wrong for you to be right, and vice versa. We can believe differently, and both of us still serve the Good and the True.

I would also note that not agreeing with your beliefs is not the same as "hating" them, whatever you have been told. I retain a great deal of respect and even reverence for the Christian faith, even though it is no longer my own.

Of course, I have a small advantage there. In my religion, you see, what you BELIEVE -- a.k.a. what you THINK -- doesn't matter much; what you DO is of primary importance, and indeed what you think only matters at all insofar as it affects what you do. Indeed, the Jewish religion has no formal doctrines, no beliefs which one must hold (though there are some which are forbidden) in order to be "saved" -- and of course being "saved" is of no interest to us either. That is not a Jewish concept but a Christian one, like that of Hell. Judaism is concerned with THIS world and THIS life; the next, if there is one -- we have no formal teachings on that subject either -- we leave to God. If there is one. And, if there is a next life, no one will be excluded from it on account of believing the wrong things.

Peace to you. Believe what you will, and so will I. I do not say you are condemned for believing as you do; please grant me the same courtesy.

Greetings.

Yes, I figured that was a sound rebuttal. Thank you for reading and addressing.

First. I do not believe that you are wrong and 'going to hell� for it. That concept is not Biblical. You will find as you read my posts and check into my views you find the difference between what I believe and what mainstream 'xtians' believe.

You see Xtians don't actually follow their Bibles. They claim to base their beliefs of of a book and then live lives diametrically opposed to the words in that book. I do no such thing.

Now, while I do not agree that we can both be right, I do accept the fact that, your beliefs are yours. I do not desire to change your beliefs as that right is God's not mine. I am always happy to share my beliefs and share in the beliefs of others. However, I will never accept that the beliefs of anyone else are right. Specifically due to the fact that my beliefs are not mine. They are God's and I have merely chosen to subscribe to them. So for anyone else to be right God has to be wrong. That for me is never an option. It may seem extreme to some, but that is fine. I am not here for approval. I am here to follow God.

I will never be accused of saying 'I'm right, you're wrong.�, every time I go to the mattresses I take scripture. Not tradition, not belief, not ideas, just truth. Only what the Bible says is truth. It's not what other companion books say. It's not what you want it to say. It's not what your priest, pastor, rabbi, reverend or whomever says. Like the Bereans you have to hold to the 'more, sure word of prophesy' and as those of Thessalonica were admonished to do, you must Prove things out. These are that matter. Nothing else.

Now I do realize that it seems a bot arrogant of me. But that's the opinion of others and that does not impact me. I care greatly what God sees and what his opinion of me is.

Also. I truly do not think in the terms of right and wrong with the beliefs of others. I recognize that many have a little truth and a little lie. Some more of one, some more of the other. Welcome, to a world designed by one being. All things intertwine. All religions have some faction of the truth within them Other than the religion that God gave to man all others are counterfeits created by the god of this world (Satan). He knows the stories, he knows the beliefs and mixes enough in to keep believers conveniently deceived. It's his MO. Deceived is the word I would use to describe those who do not believe what God says. It's that simple to me. It's not that they are wrong. After all a deceived person has no comprehension of them being wrong. So how do you prove otherwise.

I can show a Xtian that the Bible forbids Christmas trees and they will make every excuse and still erect the tree in December. It's what they do. It's their tradition. Pretty simple. They don't care what God said. All thy care about is what they want God to say, what they think God has said or what someone told them God said. This is why Christianity has a bad name. For 2000 + years they have been doing this. Bible says A they do B and then tell us how God meant for them to do B. Or that the A part only applies to some other group. It's become a circle of ignorance that permeates the entire mainstream religious movement.

Also, I welcome Judaism. It's brother to me. Jews (a small group of Israel) still remains close to God's heart. They always will. They are part of the people that God chose. That's a big heritage. If it wasn't for the Jews (specifically Levi) the Old Testament and God's word would have been lost. Levi held onto the history despite Babylon, despite Europe. They maintained their history which is a big part of world history.

The only thing that bothers me with Jews is something that is mostly not their fault. The world assumes that Jews = Israelite. Not completely true. All Jews are Hebrews. All Israelites are Hebrew. The Hebrews formed a nation called Israel. That nation split into two separate nations One to the North called Israel and one to the South named Judah. Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria 120 yrs before Judah was taken into captivity by Babylon. Judah returned from captivity. Israel never did. They disappeared when their captors migrated into Europe. The Nation known today as Israel today is merely just the tribe of Judah, Benjamin, a large portion of Levi (as the temple was in Jerusalem) and bits and pieces of the others. It is not inclusive. The other 10 tribes did not keep their identity as the Jews did and as a whole do not know whom they are today. A small minority in this world know through the Bible where the lost ten Tribes of the northern nation are today. This why I look on Jews as my brothers. I am of the tribe of Manasseh. Without the strong national memory of my brothers and the power of God this knowledge would be lost to me.

Most Jews that I know do not hate Christians. They do not hold much enmity towards anyone. The group on here that tends to hate Christianity is atheists. Not all mind you but that is where I run into the most hatred. So do not assume please that I was saying you hate. It was inclusive response that includes not only you but other readers as well.

I apologize for causing you to think otherwise.

[cnorman18]

Just a couple of remarks here:

Now, while I do not agree that we can both be right...

I never said that. I said that it isn't important. I said that "We can believe differently, and both of us still serve the Good and the True." Who is "right," in terms of theological doctrines, is trivial compared to what we actually do in terms of how we treat our fellow humans (and animals, and the planet). Again, that may be a difference in our basic beliefs; in your religion, what one believes may be all-important, as it seems to be for most Christians. We can agree to disagree there, too.

...I will never accept that the beliefs of anyone else are right. Specifically due to the fact that my beliefs are not mine. They are God's and I have merely chosen to subscribe to them. So for anyone else to be right God has to be wrong.... Only what the Bible says is truth. It's not what other companion books say. It's not what you want it to say. It's not what your priest, pastor, rabbi, reverend or whomever says....

I can find no other way to read that but that you are claiming that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is absolutely correct and true; in other words, it's not what any of those other people or sources say, it's what YOU say.

And please don't tell me that it isn't what YOU say, it's what GOD says. You have no more right to make that claim than anyone else, unless you're claiming to be a Prophet of God and that God speaks to you directly. If all you have is the Bible, you're no more an authority on what it means than I am, or any other person.

Now I do realize that it seems a bot arrogant of me.

More than "a bit." It's breathtakingly, jaw-droppingly, stunningly arrogant. In fact, I have rarely read anything MORE arrogant.

But that's the opinion of others and that does not impact me.

And so is that. No one's opinion matters but yours, and...

I care greatly what God sees and what his opinion of me is.

...and you claim to know God's thoughts on the matter and that He judges you to be correct and all others in error?

Wow. "Arrogant" hardly covers it.

I really have nothing to say about the rest of your post, with a couple of exceptions:

If it wasn't for the Jews (specifically Levi) the Old Testament and God's word would have been lost. Levi held onto the history despite Babylon, despite Europe. They maintained their history which is a big part of world history.

The only thing that bothers me with Jews is something that is mostly not their fault. The world assumes that Jews = Israelite. Not completely true. All Jews are Hebrews. All Israelites are Hebrew. The Hebrews formed a nation called Israel. That nation split into two separate nations One to the North called Israel and one to the South named Judah. Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria 120 yrs before Judah was taken into captivity by Babylon. Judah returned from captivity. Israel never did. They disappeared when their captors migrated into Europe. The Nation known today as Israel today is merely just the tribe of Judah, Benjamin, a large portion of Levi (as the temple was in Jerusalem) and bits and pieces of the others. It is not inclusive. The other 10 tribes did not keep their identity as the Jews did and as a whole do not know whom they are today. A small minority in this world know through the Bible where the lost ten Tribes of the northern nation are today. This why I look on Jews as my brothers. I am of the tribe of Manasseh. Without the strong national memory of my brothers and the power of God this knowledge would be lost to me.

I would love to know what your sources are for these rather astonishing factual claims. If you have no nonBiblical source and claim that you learned all of them from the Bible, where in the Bible do you read these things? And further, how do you know you are of the tribe of Manasseh?

Then, we have this:

Most Jews that I know do not hate Christians. They do not hold much enmity towards anyone.

That much, at least, is true; or at least I would agree with it, which is not, of course, quite the same thing.

The group on here that tends to hate Christianity is atheists. Not all mind you but that is where I run into the most hatred. So do not assume please that I was saying you hate. It was inclusive response that includes not only you but other readers as well.

Likewise; that is to say, I was not giving a personal response in the sense than I thought that you were attributing hate to me personally. I said, and meant, that "not agreeing with your beliefs is not the same as 'hating' them," and that goes for atheists too.

I really don't think I'd care to go on with this conversation. I don't expect you to answer my questions directly; I've seen such claims before, many times, and I've never seen any of those who make them come forward with any convincing reason to believe that they are born of anything but -- as both you and I said -- arrogance. Most simply fall back to vague hints and innuendo; the best that any who DO try to back up their claims have ever been able to do is to give convoluted and contrived Bible interpretations, complete with complicated mathematical derivations, more unsubstantiated claims of "insider" knowledge of what some passages "really" mean, and MORE unsubstantiated claims of obscure and little-known symbolism in Scripture that conveniently fits their theories. Some, of course, simply claim to have received a direct revelation from the Almighty Himself. And I've never, repeat, never, found any reason to take ANY of this obvious nonsense seriously for even a moment.

If you're the exception, please enlighten me.

Oh, and "You won't believe me, so why should I try" is the oldest dodge on this forum. If you have anything to back up your rather bold claims here, let's see what you've got. Otherwise, don't be surprised if your ideas are dismissed here as so much hot air and, er, arrogance.

[Fides et Veritas]

Just a couple of remarks here:

Now, while I do not agree that we can both be right...

I never said that. I said that it isn't important. I said that "We can believe differently, and both of us still serve the Good and the True." Who is "right," in terms of theological doctrines, is trivial compared to what we actually do in terms of how we treat our fellow humans (and animals, and the planet). Again, that may be a difference in our basic beliefs; in your religion, what one believes may be all-important, as it seems to be for most Christians. We can agree to disagree there, too.

...I will never accept that the beliefs of anyone else are right. Specifically due to the fact that my beliefs are not mine. They are God's and I have merely chosen to subscribe to them. So for anyone else to be right God has to be wrong.... Only what the Bible says is truth. It's not what other companion books say. It's not what you want it to say. It's not what your priest, pastor, rabbi, reverend or whomever says....

I can find no other way to read that but that you are claiming that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is absolutely correct and true; in other words, it's not what any of those other people or sources say, it's what YOU say.

And please don't tell me that it isn't what YOU say, it's what GOD says. You have no more right to make that claim than anyone else, unless you're claiming to be a Prophet of God and that God speaks to you directly. If all you have is the Bible, you're no more an authority on what it means than I am, or any other person.

Now I do realize that it seems a bot arrogant of me.

More than "a bit." It's breathtakingly, jaw-droppingly, stunningly arrogant. In fact, I have rarely read anything MORE arrogant.

But that's the opinion of others and that does not impact me.

And so is that. No one's opinion matters but yours, and...

I care greatly what God sees and what his opinion of me is.

...and you claim to know God's thoughts on the matter and that He judges you to be correct and all others in error?

Wow. "Arrogant" hardly covers it.

I really have nothing to say about the rest of your post, with a couple of exceptions:

If it wasn't for the Jews (specifically Levi) the Old Testament and God's word would have been lost. Levi held onto the history despite Babylon, despite Europe. They maintained their history which is a big part of world history.

The only thing that bothers me with Jews is something that is mostly not their fault. The world assumes that Jews = Israelite. Not completely true. All Jews are Hebrews. All Israelites are Hebrew. The Hebrews formed a nation called Israel. That nation split into two separate nations One to the North called Israel and one to the South named Judah. Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria 120 yrs before Judah was taken into captivity by Babylon. Judah returned from captivity. Israel never did. They disappeared when their captors migrated into Europe. The Nation known today as Israel today is merely just the tribe of Judah, Benjamin, a large portion of Levi (as the temple was in Jerusalem) and bits and pieces of the others. It is not inclusive. The other 10 tribes did not keep their identity as the Jews did and as a whole do not know whom they are today. A small minority in this world know through the Bible where the lost ten Tribes of the northern nation are today. This why I look on Jews as my brothers. I am of the tribe of Manasseh. Without the strong national memory of my brothers and the power of God this knowledge would be lost to me.

I would love to know what your sources are for these rather astonishing factual claims. If you have no nonBiblical source and claim that you learned all of them from the Bible, where in the Bible do you read these things? And further, how do you know you are of the tribe of Manasseh?

Then, we have this:

Most Jews that I know do not hate Christians. They do not hold much enmity towards anyone.

That much, at least, is true; or at least I would agree with it, which is not, of course, quite the same thing.

The group on here that tends to hate Christianity is atheists. Not all mind you but that is where I run into the most hatred. So do not assume please that I was saying you hate. It was inclusive response that includes not only you but other readers as well.

Likewise; that is to say, I was not giving a personal response in the sense than I thought that you were attributing hate to me personally. I said, and meant, that "not agreeing with your beliefs is not the same as 'hating' them," and that goes for atheists too.

I really don't think I'd care to go on with this conversation. I don't expect you to answer my questions directly; I've seen such claims before, many times, and I've never seen any of those who make them come forward with any convincing reason to believe that they are born of anything but -- as both you and I said -- arrogance. Most simply fall back to vague hints and innuendo; the best that any who DO try to back up their claims have ever been able to do is to give convoluted and contrived Bible interpretations, complete with complicated mathematical derivations, more unsubstantiated claims of "insider" knowledge of what some passages "really" mean, and MORE unsubstantiated claims of obscure and little-known symbolism in Scripture that conveniently fits their theories. Some, of course, simply claim to have received a direct revelation from the Almighty Himself. And I've never, repeat, never, found any reason to take ANY of this obvious nonsense seriously for even a moment.

If you're the exception, please enlighten me.

Oh, and "You won't believe me, so why should I try" is the oldest dodge on this forum. If you have anything to back up your rather bold claims here, let's see what you've got. Otherwise, don't be surprised if your ideas are dismissed here as so much hot air and, er, arrogance.

Poor Paul. Poor Jesus. These guys must have been so arrogant. Can you believe that they actually defended their beliefs and held that they were right where the rest were wrong? What is wrong with them?

I mean, how many times did Paul state that it wasn't his beliefs but those of Jesus instead? Wait!! Hold the presses!! Christ said it was his father's work and not his he was doing. Man Some people. Of all the nerve. And he actually claimed to be a Jew. Bet he made that up. Sat down with Simon and Garfunkel and worked out a lineage and claimed it.

Poor saps are running around following a fraud.

Note: Careful how you assume what others believe. I have made it my job to be informed of the beliefs of others. Though my knowledge can never be as full and accurate as those that are truly devoted I still have a strong working knowledge of most of Earths religions. Specifically Bible based (I tend to dismiss and forget non Biblical beliefs as I feel they hold no bearing).

I have worked exceedingly hard to prove what I know to be truth. Based off of God's inspired word. I have worked as hard to prove that the beliefs of others are false. Why? Because God is watching. He set the table and did not invite every dirty hand to it. Only those that hear what his word says and not the words of men can eat at said table. I want to be one of them. It is why I refuse to follow the paganism of others.

There rebuttal entered.

Back to the O.P. What was it again?

Oh yeah. As I said originally The Bible becomes fact when you accept it as the Word of God. It becomes the Buy-Bull when you decide it was written by looney sheep herders.

Anything in between to me is dangerous. When do you draw the line between Fat and allegory? When is it a parable and when is it a prophesy? That takes you down the road of “private interpretation�, something strictly forbidden in the New Testament. I think that anything on the fence with this leads to doubt and questions that can never be answered.

One of my closest friends is a practicing, devout atheist (he would be so pissed for me calling him that), he fully believes the whole book is Bull. Though a few tings may be historical that does not make the book fact. No doubt. No worries, No wonder. Cold hard fact. The Bible is a lie.

For me I am on the opposite side of the theoretical fence. I believe it is God's word. No doubt. No worries. No wonder. Cold hard fact. The Bible is Truth.

That is probably the clearest answer I can give. In the end it is up to each of us to decide what is right and wrong (thanks for that Adam and Eve). You have to decide to be atheist, Hindu, Catholic, Druid, Osirian, Tyrinite or to be an honest to God worship of the great gnome empire of Gnomeggedon.

[cnorman18]

Just a couple of remarks here:

Now, while I do not agree that we can both be right...

I never said that. I said that it isn't important. I said that "We can believe differently, and both of us still serve the Good and the True." Who is "right," in terms of theological doctrines, is trivial compared to what we actually do in terms of how we treat our fellow humans (and animals, and the planet). Again, that may be a difference in our basic beliefs; in your religion, what one believes may be all-important, as it seems to be for most Christians. We can agree to disagree there, too.

...I will never accept that the beliefs of anyone else are right. Specifically due to the fact that my beliefs are not mine. They are God's and I have merely chosen to subscribe to them. So for anyone else to be right God has to be wrong.... Only what the Bible says is truth. It's not what other companion books say. It's not what you want it to say. It's not what your priest, pastor, rabbi, reverend or whomever says....

I can find no other way to read that but that you are claiming that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is absolutely correct and true; in other words, it's not what any of those other people or sources say, it's what YOU say.

And please don't tell me that it isn't what YOU say, it's what GOD says. You have no more right to make that claim than anyone else, unless you're claiming to be a Prophet of God and that God speaks to you directly. If all you have is the Bible, you're no more an authority on what it means than I am, or any other person.

Now I do realize that it seems a bot arrogant of me.

More than "a bit." It's breathtakingly, jaw-droppingly, stunningly arrogant. In fact, I have rarely read anything MORE arrogant.

But that's the opinion of others and that does not impact me.

And so is that. No one's opinion matters but yours, and...

I care greatly what God sees and what his opinion of me is.

...and you claim to know God's thoughts on the matter and that He judges you to be correct and all others in error?

Wow. "Arrogant" hardly covers it.

I really have nothing to say about the rest of your post, with a couple of exceptions:

If it wasn't for the Jews (specifically Levi) the Old Testament and God's word would have been lost. Levi held onto the history despite Babylon, despite Europe. They maintained their history which is a big part of world history.

The only thing that bothers me with Jews is something that is mostly not their fault. The world assumes that Jews = Israelite. Not completely true. All Jews are Hebrews. All Israelites are Hebrew. The Hebrews formed a nation called Israel. That nation split into two separate nations One to the North called Israel and one to the South named Judah. Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria 120 yrs before Judah was taken into captivity by Babylon. Judah returned from captivity. Israel never did. They disappeared when their captors migrated into Europe. The Nation known today as Israel today is merely just the tribe of Judah, Benjamin, a large portion of Levi (as the temple was in Jerusalem) and bits and pieces of the others. It is not inclusive. The other 10 tribes did not keep their identity as the Jews did and as a whole do not know whom they are today. A small minority in this world know through the Bible where the lost ten Tribes of the northern nation are today. This why I look on Jews as my brothers. I am of the tribe of Manasseh. Without the strong national memory of my brothers and the power of God this knowledge would be lost to me.

I would love to know what your sources are for these rather astonishing factual claims. If you have no nonBiblical source and claim that you learned all of them from the Bible, where in the Bible do you read these things? And further, how do you know you are of the tribe of Manasseh?

Then, we have this:

Most Jews that I know do not hate Christians. They do not hold much enmity towards anyone.

That much, at least, is true; or at least I would agree with it, which is not, of course, quite the same thing.

The group on here that tends to hate Christianity is atheists. Not all mind you but that is where I run into the most hatred. So do not assume please that I was saying you hate. It was inclusive response that includes not only you but other readers as well.

Likewise; that is to say, I was not giving a personal response in the sense than I thought that you were attributing hate to me personally. I said, and meant, that "not agreeing with your beliefs is not the same as 'hating' them," and that goes for atheists too.

I really don't think I'd care to go on with this conversation. I don't expect you to answer my questions directly; I've seen such claims before, many times, and I've never seen any of those who make them come forward with any convincing reason to believe that they are born of anything but -- as both you and I said -- arrogance. Most simply fall back to vague hints and innuendo; the best that any who DO try to back up their claims have ever been able to do is to give convoluted and contrived Bible interpretations, complete with complicated mathematical derivations, more unsubstantiated claims of "insider" knowledge of what some passages "really" mean, and MORE unsubstantiated claims of obscure and little-known symbolism in Scripture that conveniently fits their theories. Some, of course, simply claim to have received a direct revelation from the Almighty Himself. And I've never, repeat, never, found any reason to take ANY of this obvious nonsense seriously for even a moment.

If you're the exception, please enlighten me.

Oh, and "You won't believe me, so why should I try" is the oldest dodge on this forum. If you have anything to back up your rather bold claims here, let's see what you've got. Otherwise, don't be surprised if your ideas are dismissed here as so much hot air and, er, arrogance.

Poor Paul. Poor Jesus. These guys must have been so arrogant. Can you believe that they actually defended their beliefs and held that they were right where the rest were wrong? What is wrong with them?

I mean, how many times did Paul state that it wasn't his beliefs but those of Jesus instead? Wait!! Hold the presses!! Christ said it was his father's work and not his he was doing. Man Some people. Of all the nerve. And he actually claimed to be a Jew. Bet he made that up. Sat down with Simon and Garfunkel and worked out a lineage and claimed it.

Poor saps are running around following a fraud.

Note: Careful how you assume what others believe. I have made it my job to be informed of the beliefs of others. Though my knowledge can never be as full and accurate as those that are truly devoted I still have a strong working knowledge of most of Earths religions. Specifically Bible based (I tend to dismiss and forget non Biblical beliefs as I feel they hold no bearing).

I have worked exceedingly hard to prove what I know to be truth. Based off of God's inspired word. I have worked as hard to prove that the beliefs of others are false. Why? Because God is watching. He set the table and did not invite every dirty hand to it. Only those that hear what his word says and not the words of men can eat at said table. I want to be one of them. It is why I refuse to follow the paganism of others.

There rebuttal entered.

Back to the O.P. What was it again?

Oh yeah. As I said originally The Bible becomes fact when you accept it as the Word of God. It becomes the Buy-Bull when you decide it was written by looney sheep herders.

Anything in between to me is dangerous. When do you draw the line between Fat and allegory? When is it a parable and when is it a prophesy? That takes you down the road of “private interpretation�, something strictly forbidden in the New Testament. I think that anything on the fence with this leads to doubt and questions that can never be answered.

One of my closest friends is a practicing, devout atheist (he would be so pissed for me calling him that), he fully believes the whole book is Bull. Though a few tings may be historical that does not make the book fact. No doubt. No worries, No wonder. Cold hard fact. The Bible is a lie.

For me I am on the opposite side of the theoretical fence. I believe it is God's word. No doubt. No worries. No wonder. Cold hard fact. The Bible is Truth.

That is probably the clearest answer I can give. In the end it is up to each of us to decide what is right and wrong (thanks for that Adam and Eve). You have to decide to be atheist, Hindu, Catholic, Druid, Osirian, Tyrinite or to be an honest to God worship of the great gnome empire of Gnomeggedon.

A bit disingenuous. Even though you equate yourself here with Paul and even Jesus himself, we have established elsewhere that you are a mere cultist -- an unquestioning follower of the bizarre theories and doctrines, aka the "private interpretations," of Herbert W. Armstrong. That's all I need to say on the matter.

Oh, yes: Sarcasm isn't debate, and it doesn't constitute a "rebuttal," never mind an actual defense of your claims or an actual argument.

[Fides et Veritas]

C man
There is a thread on Armstrongism if you want to attack it. Go there. Don't hijack this poor guys post. It's precisely why I went to the PM side to discuss our side topic.

And yes Sarcasm is a retort. When it's all that the other is worth. You have proven you don't believe God's word (and yes you can draw a line there between God and Armstrong all you want). But as a Jew I wouldn't expect you to. It's not your ways. Thats fine.

I know it may seem wrong to you but an apostle is an apostle and a prophet is a prophet. So of course I will use Biblical people in my laugh at your stance. It is basically summed up by "How dare God use a fallible man who allowed himself on no more than 5 occasions to step out of line. Must mean he is a false." Go look through the Torah for me and show me how much perfection you find.

Either way. Either continue in PM or go to the thread. Give Acrylic his post back.

[cnorman18]

C man
There is a thread on Armstrongism if you want to attack it. Go there. Don't hijack this poor guys post. It's precisely why I went to the PM side to discuss our side topic.

And yes Sarcasm is a retort. When it's all that the other is worth. You have proven you don't believe God's word (and yes you can draw a line there between God and Armstrong all you want). But as a Jew I wouldn't expect you to. It's not your ways. Thats fine.

I know it may seem wrong to you but an apostle is an apostle and a prophet is a prophet. So of course I will use Biblical people in my laugh at your stance. It is basically summed up by "How dare God use a fallible man who allowed himself on no more than 5 occasions to step out of line. Must mean he is a false." Go look through the Torah for me and show me how much perfection you find.

Either way. Either continue in PM or go to the thread. Give Acrylic his post back.

You first.

My own posts, beginning with #3, were on topic and to the point. Yours seem to consist of proselytizing for your cult, admitted or not. In this last one, I'm clarifying what you said in your previous, since you don't seem willing to speak frankly about your position and its antecedents in public. You don't take the Bible literally anyway; you take a bizarre and often indefensible personal interpretation of the Bible literally, and you do so because a self-anointed "prophet and apostle" told you to. That's the truth of the matter; and that fact that you want to sidestep that very relevant issue is not my problem.

Oh, yeah: "No more than 5 occasions"? Please. I invite anyone to Google "Herbert W. Armstrong Prophecy" and see for themselves. I have just now found one website that documents 209 false "prophecies." Besides the specific prophecies that the Apollo Program would fail and that no astronauts would return alive from the Moon, which I cited to you previously, Armstrong specifically prophesied that Britain would fall to the Nazis, that Soviet Communism would outlive the United States, that there would never be a State of Israel -- and, oh, yes, that Jesus would return in 1936, 1942, 1957, 1972, and 1975...

Rather more than 5 already. Feel free to sarcastically laugh at my post again.

Since you claim to take the Bible literally, Deuteronomy 18:22 is pretty specific on the matter of who is and is not a "prophet," as we have also discussed elsewhere.

I think we're both on topic on the thread; but only one of us is arguing honestly and with transparency. Attacking and ridiculing my posts (which you have explicitly admitted above), while claiming that my posts are worthy only of sarcasm, still isn't debating. It's ducking debate and -- as I've said -- proselytizing and continuing to claim to be above actual debate ("That is the opinion of others and that does not impact me").

If you're going to claim, or make the claim on behalf of your Holy Anointed Apostle, to be the Supreme Authority on the Bible and to be Absolutely And Inarguably Right when we're discussing the subject of Biblical literalism, you shouldn't be surprised when others ask you to defend those claims. That's called "debate," you see. As opposed to "arrogantly pontificating without being open to debate."

[otseng]

Moderator Clarification

Technically, this subforum is a not a debating subforum, so really no debates are to done here. Please continue debates in an appropriate subforum.


______________

Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

[cnorman18]

I propose that this entire thread be moved to a debate forum. It has been a debate thread from the first post.