Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.
The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!
Did Allah start Christianty?
Moderator: Moderators
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Burninglight
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Post #31
Burninglight,
QUOTE: "I didn't say there were no types and shadows before Jesus. I said that is all they had, but when Christ came the types and shadows did no good. You need to read more carefully! I gave you examples of the THE SHADOWS and types. If you don't read more carefully, we will go in circles, and I am not willing to do that with you. If you want paradise it is a gift God gives only through Jesus Christ"
ANSWER:
This is what you said:
quote:" For the first (Adam) people created there were no types and shadows. Jesus is the last Adam"
What does this mean?? That there were no "types and shadows" for the first Adam so how are the first creation of people getting eternal paradise??? When Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't existent and the only way according to the bible of attaining eternal paradise is by believing in him.
If you want paradise my friend follow what your Lord has commanded you to follow. You don't need to go through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get it, be sincere in your heart and ask for guidance and you will find it, God willing
QUOTE: "I didn't say there were no types and shadows before Jesus. I said that is all they had, but when Christ came the types and shadows did no good. You need to read more carefully! I gave you examples of the THE SHADOWS and types. If you don't read more carefully, we will go in circles, and I am not willing to do that with you. If you want paradise it is a gift God gives only through Jesus Christ"
ANSWER:
This is what you said:
quote:" For the first (Adam) people created there were no types and shadows. Jesus is the last Adam"
What does this mean?? That there were no "types and shadows" for the first Adam so how are the first creation of people getting eternal paradise??? When Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't existent and the only way according to the bible of attaining eternal paradise is by believing in him.
If you want paradise my friend follow what your Lord has commanded you to follow. You don't need to go through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get it, be sincere in your heart and ask for guidance and you will find it, God willing
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #32
The first Adam was perfect without sin and had direct fellowship with God. During that time there were no types and shadows of what man must do to secure a good relationship with God and to be saved. He was already in paradise, but after the first Adam sinned things changed. Adam was no longer right with God and sinned entered the world through our father Adam. Jesus is the last Adam that never sinned. He was the only man that ever lived without sin. Until Jesus came on the scene man had types and shadows of God' plan for salvation. I have mentioned what some of them were such as the sacrificing of innocent lambs and etc. Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. If you have Jesus you have life, If you don't have Him as the son of God who shed His blood for you, you don't have life. It is just that simpleHaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight,
QUOTE: "I didn't say there were no types and shadows before Jesus. I said that is all they had, but when Christ came the types and shadows did no good. You need to read more carefully! I gave you examples of the THE SHADOWS and types. If you don't read more carefully, we will go in circles, and I am not willing to do that with you. If you want paradise it is a gift God gives only through Jesus Christ"
ANSWER:
This is what you said:
quote:" For the first (Adam) people created there were no types and shadows. Jesus is the last Adam"
What does this mean?? That there were no "types and shadows" for the first Adam so how are the first creation of people getting eternal paradise??? When Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't existent and the only way according to the bible of attaining eternal paradise is by believing in him.
If you want paradise my friend follow what your Lord has commanded you to follow. You don't need to go through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get it, be sincere in your heart and ask for guidance and you will find it, God willing
Post #33
Burninglight
QUOTE: "The first Adam was perfect without sin and had direct fellowship with God. During that time there were no types and shadows of what man must do to secure a good relationship with God and to be saved. He was already in paradise, but after the first Adam sinned things changed. Adam was no longer right with God and sinned entered the world through our father Adam"
ANSWER: This theory suggests that the Injeel was only sent to a group of people which is what Islam confirms, otherwise when sin entered the world through Adam these people needed to be guided and saved, so how are these people up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him) get eternal paradise?? Because you said:
quote:" For the first (Adam) people created there were no types and shadows. Jesus is the last Adam"
When did these shadows start?
QUOTE: "Jesus is the last Adam that never sinned. He was the only man that ever lived without sin"
ANSWER: This is incorrect Prophets of God are infallible in conveying the commands and message of God, but they are not infallible in any other regard. They may make mistakes, forget things, or commit minor sins. As for Major sins they do not.
According to your scriptures Jesus (peace be upon him) was a sinner:
It is well known that John's baptism was considered a sign that one had repented of sin.
Proof:
"A baptism in token of repentance, for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4).
Mark presented Jesus as a repentant sinner:
Proof:
"people "flocked" to John, "and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sinsIt happened at this time that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John" (Mark 1:5, 9).
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. (Matthew 3:13-15)
Furthermore according to the bible Job was sinless also:
Job 2:3
"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless (tam) and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
Job 8:20
"Surely God does not reject a blameless (tam) man or strengthen the hands of evildoers"
Psalms 37:37
"37 Consider the blameless (tam), observe the upright; there is a future for the man of peace"
QUOTE: "Until Jesus came on the scene man had types and shadows of God' plan for salvation. I have mentioned what some of them were such as the sacrificing of innocent lambs and etc. Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. If you have Jesus you have life, If you don't have Him as the son of God who shed His blood for you, you don't have life. It is just that simple"
ANSWER: Jesus never gave himself the title "Lamb of God".
It is John the Baptist who called Jesus the "Lamb of God" (John 1:29), but Jesus is called "Lamb of God" because he took away the sins of mankind, yet the title is false because Jesus was not crucified (Psalms 20:6) so therefore he was not the Lamb of God.
The Prophet Muhammad warned us about this:
I heard the Prophet saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle." (Narrated 'Umar, Sahih Bukhari)
Basically, the Holy Prophet rejected all forms of extremism. The Holy Quran is clear and simple, God is worshipped alone and the Prophet is a Messenger and Slave.
Again according to your scriptures all humans all brings are servants of God:
All human beings are servants of God (1 Peter 2:16), so its blasphemy to worship Jesus. The Gospels record Jesus saying:
'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' (Matthew 15:8-10)
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.". (Luke 6:47-49)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)
Furthermore God hates human sacrifice, isn't this the same God???
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. (Isaiah 1:11)
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:7-8)
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. (Psalms 40:6)
QUOTE: "The first Adam was perfect without sin and had direct fellowship with God. During that time there were no types and shadows of what man must do to secure a good relationship with God and to be saved. He was already in paradise, but after the first Adam sinned things changed. Adam was no longer right with God and sinned entered the world through our father Adam"
ANSWER: This theory suggests that the Injeel was only sent to a group of people which is what Islam confirms, otherwise when sin entered the world through Adam these people needed to be guided and saved, so how are these people up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him) get eternal paradise?? Because you said:
quote:" For the first (Adam) people created there were no types and shadows. Jesus is the last Adam"
When did these shadows start?
QUOTE: "Jesus is the last Adam that never sinned. He was the only man that ever lived without sin"
ANSWER: This is incorrect Prophets of God are infallible in conveying the commands and message of God, but they are not infallible in any other regard. They may make mistakes, forget things, or commit minor sins. As for Major sins they do not.
According to your scriptures Jesus (peace be upon him) was a sinner:
It is well known that John's baptism was considered a sign that one had repented of sin.
Proof:
"A baptism in token of repentance, for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4).
Mark presented Jesus as a repentant sinner:
Proof:
"people "flocked" to John, "and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sinsIt happened at this time that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John" (Mark 1:5, 9).
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. (Matthew 3:13-15)
Furthermore according to the bible Job was sinless also:
Job 2:3
"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless (tam) and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
Job 8:20
"Surely God does not reject a blameless (tam) man or strengthen the hands of evildoers"
Psalms 37:37
"37 Consider the blameless (tam), observe the upright; there is a future for the man of peace"
QUOTE: "Until Jesus came on the scene man had types and shadows of God' plan for salvation. I have mentioned what some of them were such as the sacrificing of innocent lambs and etc. Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. If you have Jesus you have life, If you don't have Him as the son of God who shed His blood for you, you don't have life. It is just that simple"
ANSWER: Jesus never gave himself the title "Lamb of God".
It is John the Baptist who called Jesus the "Lamb of God" (John 1:29), but Jesus is called "Lamb of God" because he took away the sins of mankind, yet the title is false because Jesus was not crucified (Psalms 20:6) so therefore he was not the Lamb of God.
The Prophet Muhammad warned us about this:
I heard the Prophet saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle." (Narrated 'Umar, Sahih Bukhari)
Basically, the Holy Prophet rejected all forms of extremism. The Holy Quran is clear and simple, God is worshipped alone and the Prophet is a Messenger and Slave.
Again according to your scriptures all humans all brings are servants of God:
All human beings are servants of God (1 Peter 2:16), so its blasphemy to worship Jesus. The Gospels record Jesus saying:
'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' (Matthew 15:8-10)
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.". (Luke 6:47-49)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)
Furthermore God hates human sacrifice, isn't this the same God???
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. (Isaiah 1:11)
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:7-8)
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. (Psalms 40:6)
Post #34
Why is it then so many muslims have embraced extremism? Is you god in favor of extremism?Basically, the Holy Prophet rejected all forms of extremism. The Holy Quran is clear and simple, God is worshipped alone and the Prophet is a Messenger and Slave.
According to yours all humans are slaves to god.Again according to your scriptures all humans all brings are servants of God:
Post #35
Wyvern,
QUOTE: "Why is it then so many muslims have embraced extremism? Is you god in favor of extremism?"
ANSWER: your going to have to ask them
QUOTE: "According to yours all humans are slaves to god"
ANSWER: that is correct slaves of God if you choose to be
QUOTE: "Why is it then so many muslims have embraced extremism? Is you god in favor of extremism?"
ANSWER: your going to have to ask them
QUOTE: "According to yours all humans are slaves to god"
ANSWER: that is correct slaves of God if you choose to be
Post #36
I find it amazing how within your religion mohammed is so idolized while at the same time everything he stood for according to you is so thoroughly rejected by the followers of his religion.QUOTE: "Why is it then so many muslims have embraced extremism? Is you god in favor of extremism?"
ANSWER: your going to have to ask them
Maybe you do not have a thorough understanding of the language, there is a large difference between a slave and a servant.QUOTE: "According to yours all humans are slaves to god"
ANSWER: that is correct slaves of God if you choose to be
Post #37
Wyvern,
QUOTE: "I find it amazing how within your religion mohammed is so idolized while at the same time everything he stood for according to you is so thoroughly rejected by the followers of his religion"
ANSWER: This is not true we don't idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him) like the Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him) this is not allowed in Islam.
QUOTE: "Maybe you do not have a thorough understanding of the language, there is a large difference between a slave and a servant"
ANSWER: In relation too???
QUOTE: "I find it amazing how within your religion mohammed is so idolized while at the same time everything he stood for according to you is so thoroughly rejected by the followers of his religion"
ANSWER: This is not true we don't idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him) like the Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him) this is not allowed in Islam.
QUOTE: "Maybe you do not have a thorough understanding of the language, there is a large difference between a slave and a servant"
ANSWER: In relation too???
Post #38
If such is the case why is it that mere caricatures of mohammed caused mass demonstrations in the islamic world? Looking at the behavior of the followers it's pretty obvious muslims idolize mohammed much more than christians do jesus. Just because it is not officially allowed in islam does not mean it does not happen.QUOTE: "I find it amazing how within your religion mohammed is so idolized while at the same time everything he stood for according to you is so thoroughly rejected by the followers of his religion"
ANSWER: This is not true we don't idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him) like the Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him) this is not allowed in Islam.
The difference between a servant and a slave.QUOTE: "Maybe you do not have a thorough understanding of the language, there is a large difference between a slave and a servant"
ANSWER: In relation too
Post #39
Wyvern,
QUOTE: If such is the case why is it that mere caricatures of mohammed caused mass demonstrations in the islamic world? Looking at the behavior of the followers it's pretty obvious muslims idolize mohammed much more than christians do jesus. Just because it is not officially allowed in islam does not mean it does not happen.
Protesting against mockery is not idolizing, how we worship is very important. Use of idols and people created from dust (such as Jesus, Mary, Buddha, etc...) to reach GOD Almighty is a form of idol worshiping itself, because these idols are being partnered with the One True Living GOD Almighty. They are being glorified and used as "holy symbols" to represent and reach GOD.
The Bible itself is clear about forbidding all forms of idol worshiping but unfortunately is happening.
QUOTE: "The difference between a servant and a slave"
ANSWER: What's your point?
QUOTE: If such is the case why is it that mere caricatures of mohammed caused mass demonstrations in the islamic world? Looking at the behavior of the followers it's pretty obvious muslims idolize mohammed much more than christians do jesus. Just because it is not officially allowed in islam does not mean it does not happen.
Protesting against mockery is not idolizing, how we worship is very important. Use of idols and people created from dust (such as Jesus, Mary, Buddha, etc...) to reach GOD Almighty is a form of idol worshiping itself, because these idols are being partnered with the One True Living GOD Almighty. They are being glorified and used as "holy symbols" to represent and reach GOD.
The Bible itself is clear about forbidding all forms of idol worshiping but unfortunately is happening.
QUOTE: "The difference between a servant and a slave"
ANSWER: What's your point?
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #40
There is no such thing as idolizing Jesus Christ, and Muslims do idolize Muhammad, but they'll never admit the truth about that.Wyvern wrote:If such is the case why is it that mere caricatures of mohammed caused mass demonstrations in the islamic world? Looking at the behavior of the followers it's pretty obvious muslims idolize mohammed much more than christians do jesus. Just because it is not officially allowed in islam does not mean it does not happen.QUOTE: "I find it amazing how within your religion mohammed is so idolized while at the same time everything he stood for according to you is so thoroughly rejected by the followers of his religion"
ANSWER: This is not true we don't idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him) like the Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him) this is not allowed in Islam.
The difference between a servant and a slave.QUOTE: "Maybe you do not have a thorough understanding of the language, there is a large difference between a slave and a servant"
ANSWER: In relation too
The fact that Muslims pray the shahadah proves they idolize Muhammad and they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahadah. So Muslims can never fool those knowledgable of Islam.
