Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.
The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!
Did Allah start Christianty?
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Burninglight
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Post #41
Well, I think you are wrong about 'no idolizing of Jesus'. He got turned into a God.Burninglight wrote:There is no such thing as idolizing Jesus Christ, and Muslims do idolize Muhammad, but they'll never admit the truth about that.Wyvern wrote:If such is the case why is it that mere caricatures of mohammed caused mass demonstrations in the islamic world? Looking at the behavior of the followers it's pretty obvious muslims idolize mohammed much more than christians do jesus. Just because it is not officially allowed in islam does not mean it does not happen.QUOTE: "I find it amazing how within your religion mohammed is so idolized while at the same time everything he stood for according to you is so thoroughly rejected by the followers of his religion"
ANSWER: This is not true we don't idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him) like the Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him) this is not allowed in Islam.
The difference between a servant and a slave.QUOTE: "Maybe you do not have a thorough understanding of the language, there is a large difference between a slave and a servant"
ANSWER: In relation too
The fact that Muslims pray the shahadah proves they idolize Muhammad and they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahadah. So Muslims can never fool those knowledgable of Islam.
God is not a man , and God is not a son of man. Jesus is both a man and a son of man.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
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Burninglight
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Post #42
This is true in part only. Jesus is the express image of all that God is. All things were made by Him, through Him and for Him. There is nothing that was made that wasn't made by Him whether they be things seen or unseen; so, how can anyone idolize the person of Jesus Christ under the circumstances?Goat wrote:Well, I think you are wrong about 'no idolizing of Jesus'. He got turned into a God.Burninglight wrote:There is no such thing as idolizing Jesus Christ, and Muslims do idolize Muhammad, but they'll never admit the truth about that.Wyvern wrote:If such is the case why is it that mere caricatures of mohammed caused mass demonstrations in the islamic world? Looking at the behavior of the followers it's pretty obvious muslims idolize mohammed much more than christians do jesus. Just because it is not officially allowed in islam does not mean it does not happen.QUOTE: "I find it amazing how within your religion mohammed is so idolized while at the same time everything he stood for according to you is so thoroughly rejected by the followers of his religion"
ANSWER: This is not true we don't idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him) like the Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him) this is not allowed in Islam.
The difference between a servant and a slave.QUOTE: "Maybe you do not have a thorough understanding of the language, there is a large difference between a slave and a servant"
ANSWER: In relation too
The fact that Muslims pray the shahadah proves they idolize Muhammad and they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahadah. So Muslims can never fool those knowledgable of Islam.
God is not a man , and God is not a son of man. Jesus is both a man and a son of man.
Jesus was not turned into God. In the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was God Jn 1. Jesus is the Word! Besides, you are at odds with Muslims, Jews and Christians, because you don't believe in God; so, why do you even care?
Post #43
Burninglight
QUOTE: "There is no such thing as idolizing Jesus Christ, and Muslims do idolize Muhammad, but they'll never admit the truth about that.
The fact that Muslims pray the shahadah proves they idolize Muhammad and they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahadah. So Muslims can never fool those knowledgable of Islam"
ANSWER: Any knowledgable Muslim would think you were crazy.
Jesus is being idolized, through statues and pictures of him, worshipping him, associating parners with God, as for the shahada being idol worship this is incorrect, the shahada actually emphasis and rejects the concept of idol worship and acknowledges Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a Messenger not a God.
This is the meaning of the Shahada:
I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.
The second half of the shahada means: that Prophet Mohammad (Peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) is the servant and chosen messenger of Allah. No one must have two opinions about this matter. In fact the Muslim has to obey the commands of the Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), to believe him in what he has said, to practise his teachings, to avoid what ha has forbidden, and to worship Allah (God) alone according to the message revealed to him, for all the teachings of the Prophet were in fact revelation and inspirations conveyed to him by Allah (God) therefore this is not associating partners with God at all.
QUOTE: "There is no such thing as idolizing Jesus Christ, and Muslims do idolize Muhammad, but they'll never admit the truth about that.
The fact that Muslims pray the shahadah proves they idolize Muhammad and they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahadah. So Muslims can never fool those knowledgable of Islam"
ANSWER: Any knowledgable Muslim would think you were crazy.
Jesus is being idolized, through statues and pictures of him, worshipping him, associating parners with God, as for the shahada being idol worship this is incorrect, the shahada actually emphasis and rejects the concept of idol worship and acknowledges Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a Messenger not a God.
This is the meaning of the Shahada:
I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.
The second half of the shahada means: that Prophet Mohammad (Peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) is the servant and chosen messenger of Allah. No one must have two opinions about this matter. In fact the Muslim has to obey the commands of the Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), to believe him in what he has said, to practise his teachings, to avoid what ha has forbidden, and to worship Allah (God) alone according to the message revealed to him, for all the teachings of the Prophet were in fact revelation and inspirations conveyed to him by Allah (God) therefore this is not associating partners with God at all.
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Burninglight
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Post #44
No, there are Muslims that a Quranist, and they agree that the second part of the shahadah is an association that spells shirk. I agree, no matter how you twist and turn it. It is what it isHaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "There is no such thing as idolizing Jesus Christ, and Muslims do idolize Muhammad, but they'll never admit the truth about that.
The fact that Muslims pray the shahadah proves they idolize Muhammad and they associate him with Allah in the second part of the shahadah. So Muslims can never fool those knowledgable of Islam"
ANSWER: Any knowledgable Muslim would think you were crazy.
Jesus is being idolized, through statues and pictures of him, worshipping him, associating parners with God, as for the shahada being idol worship this is incorrect, the shahada actually emphasis and rejects the concept of idol worship and acknowledges Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a Messenger not a God.
This is the meaning of the Shahada:
I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.
The second half of the shahada means: that Prophet Mohammad (Peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) is the servant and chosen messenger of Allah. No one must have two opinions about this matter. In fact the Muslim has to obey the commands of the Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), to believe him in what he has said, to practise his teachings, to avoid what ha has forbidden, and to worship Allah (God) alone according to the message revealed to him, for all the teachings of the Prophet were in fact revelation and inspirations conveyed to him by Allah (God) therefore this is not associating partners with God at all.
Post #46
You do not need an idol to idolize someone. I believe this would also fall under your incomplete understanding of english. After all why do you think so many islamic children are named mohammed? This is another form of idolization, call it hero worship if it helps you understand better. I think you are also mistaking the use of idols as being the worshipping of idols, there is a big difference between the two.QUOTE: If such is the case why is it that mere caricatures of mohammed caused mass demonstrations in the islamic world? Looking at the behavior of the followers it's pretty obvious muslims idolize mohammed much more than christians do jesus. Just because it is not officially allowed in islam does not mean it does not happen.
Protesting against mockery is not idolizing, how we worship is very important. Use of idols and people created from dust (such as Jesus, Mary, Buddha, etc...) to reach GOD Almighty is a form of idol worshiping itself, because these idols are being partnered with the One True Living GOD Almighty. They are being glorified and used as "holy symbols" to represent and reach GOD.
Just because you have an idol does not mean the idol itself is being worshipped. Consider it as a prayer focus not unlike how all muslims face mecca to pray.The Bible itself is clear about forbidding all forms of idol worshiping but unfortunately is happening.
That you don't recognize a difference between the two.QUOTE: "The difference between a servant and a slave"
ANSWER: What's your point?
Post #47
Wyvern,
QUOTE: "You do not need an idol to idolize someone. I believe this would also fall under your incomplete understanding of english. After all why do you think so many islamic children are named mohammed? This is another form of idolization, call it hero worship if it helps you understand better. I think you are also mistaking the use of idols as being the worshipping of idols, there is a big difference between the two"
ANSWER: I didn't say you do, calling upon saints and the concept of Trinity is idol worship in and of it's self.
Let us define the meaning of idol-worship:
Idol-worship means the worshipping of a statue, idol, image or a human being, power, money, status, property etc. The list is endless.
Idol-worship is not confined to religions alone. It is evident in so many aspects of real life.
As long as a Christian regards Jesus (peace be upon him) as God, he is an idol-worshipper."
The difference is we don't worship Muhammad (peace be upon him) so how is it idolization??
If christianity prohibits idol worship,why are statue's or pictures of jesus (peace be upon him) being worshipped in church's? Images are prohibited according the the ten commandments is it not?
The Old Testament condemns idol worship:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]
A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:
"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."
"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth."
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]
QUOTE: "Just because you have an idol does not mean the idol itself is being worshipped. Consider it as a prayer focus not unlike how all muslims face mecca to pray"
ANSWER: According to Christianity you are prohibited from making idols so why do you have them?
You shall not make for yourself an idol:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
(Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV))
QUOTE: "That you don't recognize a difference between the two"
ANSWER: what's the difference??
QUOTE: "You do not need an idol to idolize someone. I believe this would also fall under your incomplete understanding of english. After all why do you think so many islamic children are named mohammed? This is another form of idolization, call it hero worship if it helps you understand better. I think you are also mistaking the use of idols as being the worshipping of idols, there is a big difference between the two"
ANSWER: I didn't say you do, calling upon saints and the concept of Trinity is idol worship in and of it's self.
Let us define the meaning of idol-worship:
Idol-worship means the worshipping of a statue, idol, image or a human being, power, money, status, property etc. The list is endless.
Idol-worship is not confined to religions alone. It is evident in so many aspects of real life.
As long as a Christian regards Jesus (peace be upon him) as God, he is an idol-worshipper."
The difference is we don't worship Muhammad (peace be upon him) so how is it idolization??
If christianity prohibits idol worship,why are statue's or pictures of jesus (peace be upon him) being worshipped in church's? Images are prohibited according the the ten commandments is it not?
The Old Testament condemns idol worship:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]
A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:
"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."
"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth."
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]
QUOTE: "Just because you have an idol does not mean the idol itself is being worshipped. Consider it as a prayer focus not unlike how all muslims face mecca to pray"
ANSWER: According to Christianity you are prohibited from making idols so why do you have them?
You shall not make for yourself an idol:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
(Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV))
QUOTE: "That you don't recognize a difference between the two"
ANSWER: what's the difference??
Post #48
How can you argue against something you do not understamd in the least? If simply calling upon something is idol worship you most certainly do worship mohammed.ANSWER: I didn't say you do, calling upon saints and the concept of Trinity is idol worship in and of it's self.
They are a means to focus prayer just as you face mecca. How are islamic worry beads any different than a rosary?QUOTE: "Just because you have an idol does not mean the idol itself is being worshipped. Consider it as a prayer focus not unlike how all muslims face mecca to pray"
ANSWER: According to Christianity you are prohibited from making idols so why do you have them?
Freedom, slaves have no choice as to what they do while servants have the ability to choose.QUOTE: "That you don't recognize a difference between the two"
ANSWER: what's the difference??
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Burninglight
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Post #49
They're deviants? That is what they say about those that ascribe a partner to Allah in the Shahadah. For instance, they know that you can't just say you believe in Allah as your only true god; you must say and Muhammad is his messenger or prophet or apostle. If you don't mention or associate Muhammad's name in the shahadah prayer, you can't be a Muslim. How can you say Quranist are not Muslims, but you are when you are the one associating Muhammad with Allah in the second part of the shahadah?HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
That really makes sense, Muslims committing shirk in their prayers every day, when it is against their beliefs.
Such deviant sects are not part of Islam.
Post #50
Wyvern,
QUOTE: "How can you argue against something you do not understamd in the least? If simply calling upon something is idol worship you most certainly do worship mohammed"
ANSWER: What's there to understand it's very simple. We don't call upon Muhammad (peace be upon him) maybe deviant sects do.
QUOTE: "They are a means to focus prayer just as you face mecca. How are islamic worry beads any different than a rosary?"
ANSWER: It's an idol why would you need an idol to focus prayer, when this is disallowed in your religion. We don't worship an idol to direct ourselves to Mecca. Beads are not idols we don't worship beads, nor ask from them or direct our prayers to them.
QUOTE: "Freedom, slaves have no choice as to what they do while servants have the ability to choose"
ANSWER: Slaves in Islam have a choice, they can be set free.
QUOTE: "How can you argue against something you do not understamd in the least? If simply calling upon something is idol worship you most certainly do worship mohammed"
ANSWER: What's there to understand it's very simple. We don't call upon Muhammad (peace be upon him) maybe deviant sects do.
QUOTE: "They are a means to focus prayer just as you face mecca. How are islamic worry beads any different than a rosary?"
ANSWER: It's an idol why would you need an idol to focus prayer, when this is disallowed in your religion. We don't worship an idol to direct ourselves to Mecca. Beads are not idols we don't worship beads, nor ask from them or direct our prayers to them.
QUOTE: "Freedom, slaves have no choice as to what they do while servants have the ability to choose"
ANSWER: Slaves in Islam have a choice, they can be set free.
