Question about Jews

[Holyspirit213]

Who is the messiah? Isn't it true that Jesus Christ claimed to be a messiah?

[ThatGirlAgain]

Why are we discussing issues having to do with Jesus being the Messiah in the Judaism forum?

The stated purpose of this forum is "to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to." And that would include the subject of whether Jesus was the Messiah. According to the teachings of every branch of the Jewish religion, he was not.

This thread should be moved to Christianity and Apologetics.

I am discussing the Jewish roots of the Jesus story. I do not even believe that an original historical Jesus (likely but not definite) thought of himself as anything more than a prophet. But I was not looking to debate anything, just offer comments.

Anyone who does want to debate, go start a thread in C&A. Anyone who just wants to talk about it, start a thread in Random Ramblings. But cnorman is right. It does not belong here.

EDIT: The thread was being moved even as I was typing this.

[Holyspirit213]

I think Judaism Judaism consists of obiedience and faithfulness. I think they were disobedient to god in a sense that murder was committed. If the Jews believed in the Torah do much at the time, how can they castrate a man so badly? What happens to the laws of the Torah when they commit murder? Isn't that like the number one rule for all faiths except Muslims of course. ?

[99percentatheism]

I mean the Jew was a Judaism master but what about his followers, why didn't they get along if they were both descendants of Abraham?

By "the Jew" I presume you are referring to Jesus. You call him a "Judaism master" ..... do you mean a wise man, a sage, a man very well educated in Jewish theology and law and looked upon by the Jewish community as a source of wisdom and guidance on how to best obey the law?

It does seem that Jesus was not such a man, as the preaching that is attributed to him is that living the Law - the Torah - and actually following the instructions given by G-d, should be abandoned. He actually preached against the Torah and observance of Torah law.

I'm not quite sure just who you are talking about when you say "his followers" and am not at all clear who it is that you say didn't get along, even though they are both descendants of Abraham. Maybe if you clarify, I can give you a better answer.


As far as Jesus being the messiah foretold in the Jewish scripture, the Tanakh ..... we can only assess what actually happened. The Jewish prophesies about the Jewish messiah are very specific about what will happen. And when those things happen, the person who brought them about will be proclaimed by Jews - unanimously - the messiah. In Judaism, the messiah is not G-d or divine in any way. He will be a human being, not G-d or a part of G-d and will not be worshiped as G-d. He will be tasked by G-d with accomplishing certain things during his lifetime. And when those things happen, we will know that the messiah has arrived.

Those things have never happened yet.

That's how Jews know that the messiah has not yet come.

No one knows what the Hebrews/Israelites believed in before the Babylonian exile. Judaism, "Rabbi's and Synagouges" came from that environment. Great men of "Judaism" like the RAMBAM (from Moses to Moses) far more than likely have shaped what "Jews" of today practice and believe in.

[Holyspirit213]

How come Jews didn't see him as messiah when the Torah says the messiah is both wolf and a sheep. It is somewhat appealing to me to see the "wolf" who is the crucified one on the left cursing Christ and gets pecked and the one on the right who asks him for his protection on the right and the middle being Christ of course.

[Suluby]

I think Judaism Judaism consists of obiedience and faithfulness. I think they were disobedient to god in a sense that murder was committed. If the Jews believed in the Torah do much at the time, how can they castrate a man so badly? What happens to the laws of the Torah when they commit murder? Isn't that like the number one rule for all faiths except Muslims of course. ?

Castrated??? Who was castrated??


What are you talking about? I honestly can't make heads or tails of this.


.

[Suluby]

How come Jews didn't see him as messiah when the Torah says the messiah is both wolf and a sheep. It is somewhat appealing to me to see the "wolf" who is the crucified one on the left cursing Christ and gets pecked and the one on the right who asks him for his protection on the right and the middle being Christ of course.

The reason that Jews do not see in Jesus the messiah foretold in the Tanakh is that Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish prophesies of what the messiah would actually accomplish while he lives.

Messiah is a job title ..... and since nothing messianic occurred while Jesus lived, we know that he was not the messiah we await.


The stories told in the Christian bible have no effect on the theology of Judaism.


.

[cnorman18]

No one knows what the Hebrews/Israelites believed in before the Babylonian exile. Judaism, "Rabbi's and Synagouges" came from that environment. Great men of "Judaism" like the RAMBAM (from Moses to Moses) far more than likely have shaped what "Jews" of today practice and believe in.

Largely true, but misleading. There was obviously a Jewish religion long before the Exile, and the Torah was redacted from documents that existed before that time; and the Pharisaic movement -- rabbis and synagogues -- developed a good deal later (and it's worth noting that Jesus was associated with that movement; his disciples called him "rabbi" and he spoke in synagogues).

Do you not accept what the Bible itself says, that the Torah was given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai? You seem to read the Bible pretty literally otherwise.

I am also puzzled by the disparaging tone here. Is there something wrong or objectionable about Maimonides? Why do you put "Judaism" and "Jews" in quotes?

[Goat]

I think Judaism Judaism consists of obiedience and faithfulness. I think they were disobedient to god in a sense that murder was committed. If the Jews believed in the Torah do much at the time, how can they castrate a man so badly? What happens to the laws of the Torah when they commit murder? Isn't that like the number one rule for all faiths except Muslims of course. ?

Well, I will point out that crucifixion is a Roman style of execution, and is not legal in Jewish law. There are 4 forms of execution legal for the Jewish people of that time frame would be, and crucifixion is not one of them.

[ThatGirlAgain]

I think Judaism Judaism consists of obiedience and faithfulness. I think they were disobedient to god in a sense that murder was committed. If the Jews believed in the Torah do much at the time, how can they castrate a man so badly? What happens to the laws of the Torah when they commit murder? Isn't that like the number one rule for all faiths except Muslims of course. ?

Well, I will point out that crucifixion is a Roman style of execution, and is not legal in Jewish law. There are 4 forms of execution legal for the Jewish people of that time frame would be, and crucifixion is not one of them.

The story told in the Gospels (true or not) is that the Jewish authorities tried to convict Jesus on grounds of blasphemy. When that failed they turned him over to the Romans, apparently telling them that Jesus was representing himself as King of the Jews, definitely a quick path to crucifixion. Pilate would have been more than ready to carry out a few executions after the recent uprising.

The reasons that the several Jewish authorities wanted Jesus out of the picture is also found in the Gospels. Jesus spared no pains in criticizing the Pharisees for over emphasis on the letter of the law and neglecting the spirit, and for general hypocrisy. The Sadducees were upset over that business at the Temple, interfering in the lucrative (as well as religiously motivated) money changing business during its peak season. That Jesus had huge crowds following him around and believing what he said did not help, especially that dramatic entrance into Jerusalem during the Passover preparation cycle no less when attention should have been on the Temple.

No surprise that Jesus ended up dead. True, this is how the story got told several decades after the putative event. Yet it does hold together neatly.

[Goat]

I think Judaism Judaism consists of obiedience and faithfulness. I think they were disobedient to god in a sense that murder was committed. If the Jews believed in the Torah do much at the time, how can they castrate a man so badly? What happens to the laws of the Torah when they commit murder? Isn't that like the number one rule for all faiths except Muslims of course. ?

Well, I will point out that crucifixion is a Roman style of execution, and is not legal in Jewish law. There are 4 forms of execution legal for the Jewish people of that time frame would be, and crucifixion is not one of them.

The story told in the Gospels (true or not) is that the Jewish authorities tried to convict Jesus on grounds of blasphemy. When that failed they turned him over to the Romans, apparently telling them that Jesus was representing himself as King of the Jews, definitely a quick path to crucifixion. Pilate would have been more than ready to carry out a few executions after the recent uprising.

The reasons that the several Jewish authorities wanted Jesus out of the picture is also found in the Gospels. Jesus spared no pains in criticizing the Pharisees for over emphasis on the letter of the law and neglecting the spirit, and for general hypocrisy. The Sadducees were upset over that business at the Temple, interfering in the lucrative (as well as religiously motivated) money changing business during its peak season. That Jesus had huge crowds following him around and believing what he said did not help, especially that dramatic entrance into Jerusalem during the Passover preparation cycle no less when attention should have been on the Temple.

No surprise that Jesus ended up dead. True, this is how the story got told several decades after the putative event. Yet it does hold together neatly.

Well, there are tons of reasons not to believe to story about the trial. It breaks all the Jewish laws when it comes to how it was conducted, and when it was done. Who ever wrote the story did not know the Jewish law when it came to how trials was conducted, and they had the Sanhedrin violating the Passover... as well as the process for conducting a trial.

The story was written well after the Christians were no longer welcome in the Jewish places of worship. It appears to me to be 'let's blame the Jews, and make nice to the Romans'.