No one deserves to go to Hell

[Jake]

No one deserves to go to Hell. According to the Bible, Hell is a lake of burning sulfur. It's probably several thousand degrees. Not to mention the fact that Hell must expand as more souls enter it each day, so the temperature could actually be increasing. But no matter the exact temperature of the burning lake, I'm here to argue that no one, not even Hitler, deserves Hell. Let's use Hitler as an example, because if I prove he doesn't deserve Hell, I think we can assume no one else does either.

I'll provide you with some approximated statistics. The exact numbers don't matter all that much. About eleven million people died in the Holocaust. Now, the natural life expectancy during that time period was about 65. Let's assume there was an even distribution of ages (0-65) throughout the victims of the Holocaust. About 167,000 people from each of the age groups died. So 167,000 newborns were robbed of 65 years of life, 167,000 one-year-olds were robbed of 64 years of life, and so on. So each victim was robbed of 33 years of life on average, or all of the victims were collectively robbed of 363,000,000 years of life, depending on how you want to look at it. And, of course, I haven't even accounted for the suffering caused to the Holocaust survivors (and the suffering of the dead victims BEFORE they died).

Now, it would be justifiable to rob Hitler of 363 million years of life, would it not? Unfortunately, that's completely impossible. Even if we had managed to find and execute Hitler before he died, his crime would have dwarfed the meager punishment we were able to deal out. Some might argue that he is now getting exactly what he deserves in Hell. But let's think about that for a moment.

The other day, I picked up a firework on the Fourth of July and burned by thumb. (I know, I know, it wasn't very responsible of me!) Anyway, it hurt pretty badly. I shudder to think about having that pain in every part of my body. But when I think about having that pain in my body permanently, and at several hundred times the intensity, the pain I would be enduring is inconceivable. I'm sure most people here can relate. We've all burned ourselves on hot stoves or open flames before.

Take a moment to try to grasp what "forever" means. Imagine experiencing the pain of burning your fingers on a match, except put that pain in every nerve of your body. Now multiply that pain by a few hundred times. Now imagine having to withstand that burning for ten seconds. One minute. Ten minutes. One hour. A day. A week. A year. Two years. Five years. Ten years. A hundred years. A thousand years. A million years. Five trillion years. Even a few hours could drive a person to insanity. But think about trillions of years passing by, and you are no closer to being relieved from the pain. Think of a quadrillion years times a quintillion years times a Googolplex years, feeling the burning of the sulfur as intensely as you felt it at the beginning of your torment.

Furthermore, punishment is meant to deter future crimes, and since those who are in Hell are already dead, they are being tortured pointlessly. I fail to see the purpose in this. It seems to be simply a product of God's vengeance and sadism. Although in his defense, he is immortal, and perhaps does not realize that time seems to pass more slowly for humans than it does for him. If God is immortal, then a second to him is an infinite amount of time to us, and he probably has no concept of how long forever actually is. Regardless, no one deserves Hell whether God realizes what he's doing to the damned or not.

If you try to convince me that Hitler actually deserves this punishment, a punishment of far greater torment than he ever delivered to any other humans, lasting an INFINITE amount of time longer than the mere 363 million years of life he stole, then you have indeed no moral compass. I would even categorize you as dangerous or unstable. But not even you deserve Hell. No one deserves Hell. Not the Devil, not even God, who puts people there in the first place.

I dare you to prove me wrong. I dare you to conceive of a crime that could be worthy of even a million years in Hell.

Before I open the floor to discussion, let me say that I understand some people may know in the back of their minds that Hell is wrong, but they would never admit it for fear of going there themselves. While I think it's sad that anyone could delude themselves to being so fearful, I would also ask that anyone who agrees with me, but doesn't want to admit it, not argue against me. I'm looking to debate anyone who genuinely believes some people deserve Hell. If you don't want to agree with me for fear of angering God, just push that thought further into the back of your mind and forget you ever saw this post.

Now then, let the debate begin.

[Jake]

First of all, my reply will probably be much shorter than your post, but rest assured, I did read all of it and even took notes on a sheet of paper as I went. I only have three areas I want to focus on, however: free will, God's purpose and intent, and the justification of Hell. As far as I'm concerned, you've done an excellent job of explaining (according to your beliefs) what happened, but you haven't explained why it had to happen.

Free Will

But They realized only by a truly free will choice, (made by faith, hope without proof), could a created person become a real loving person offering real praise and worship. (Natural unassailable logic.)

Creating a person who is merely a meat or spiritual robot saying, "I love you, I praise you," is obviously inadequate. Causing such fear and dread, or seducing awe in a person so they say, ever so fondly, "I love you, I praise you as my GOD!"" is also inadequate.

Therefore They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice. Such a choice would have to be a true free will choice uncoerced by anything at all and made on faith, ie. hope without proof because proof before the choice was made would coerce the choice,

This is what I think God should have done: he should have presented the facts: I created you, and you have free will. And he would have proved these things. He wouldn't have told anyone to love him and he wouldn't have threatened to punish anyone. Then people would have either decided to love him simply out of gratitude that he created them, or they would have decided not to love him, for their own personal reasons.

In fact, I believe that love made on faith is far less meaningful than love based on information. For example, if someone simply saw me on the street, came up, and told me they loved me because they had faith that there must be some reason to love me, I wouldn't be flattered, I would think they were delusional. But if one of my oldest friends came up to me and told me they loved me, because they'd known me for so long and they knew who I was and loved me for it, then I would be genuinely grateful.

God's Purpose and Intent

They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice.

Why? What is achieved by this? What is the point? Why did God do any of this?

Justification of Hell

It was also apparent that IF a love so pure it could never turn against the object of its love was to be possible by a personal true free will choice, then, for a true choice to be present, it must also be possible that the outcome of the personal true free will choice could be pure evil, or an evil so committed to evil it will never / can never choose to reject their evil to try to seek good.

Why was it apparent? Why couldn't God simply create Heaven, and then create a dark place where no one is happy but no one is being tortured by fire? You've jumped straight to the conclusion that if there is something good, there must be something equally bad. This isn't logical. We don't live in a world of polar opposites. And even if I accepted your logic that if there is Heaven there MUST be Hell, I would argue that there shouldn't be a Heaven if it comes at such a high cost. I would gladly die forever and never go to Heaven if I could save people from going to Hell.

I apologize if I misunderstood your story, it was a bit hard to follow. I haven't written here in my post half of what I wrote in my notes during my first reading of your post, because I've decided critiquing the inconsistencies and fallacies in your logic isn't really relevant. What I want to know is why did God need to do any of this and do you really believe someone should burn for their sins instead of having the error of their ways explained to them rationally, with love and compassion?

[Serpent Oracle]

My question first please:

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils?

Show some quid pro quo and I'll to provide the answers you have asked to be given...

Peace, Ted

Well, since you haven't told me what demons and devils are and what exactly they're doing to harm the rest of creation, it's difficult to answer. Assuming they are doing SOMEthing on Earth to corrupt humanity, I suppose they could be either put somewhere far away from humans or simply destroyed forever. But eternal torture is sadistic and unnecessary.

Ted/ttruscott seems to think posting copy pasted nonsense is a substitute for debate...

I shall wait until one of the christians actually posts something debatable.

[Serpent Oracle]

Now then, let the debate begin.

Eh, those cast into hell are humans, and will survive no more than a few milliseconds before losing consciousness and life for all eternity.

The punishment for sinning is death, and the punishment of death is everlasting.

In other words, it last forever, or is everlasting.

That is, they will never live again.

I don't see a problem with that.

Everyone sins apparently so everyone should go to Hell then...do you have a problem with that?

[Serpent Oracle]

God created us so we could have loving communion in a realtionship with us.

How pathetic of Him.

Such a relationship is only available by true free will choice.

Excellent I choose not to have any relationship with God then.

IF pure love (a love so pure it can never deny the object of that love) is accessed by true free will then pure evil (an evil so pure it can/will never change nor stop hating and trying to destroy the object of that evil) is also accessible.

Mumbo Jumbo...psycho babble...

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

The only person who can save you, is yourself.

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils? Is a demon born as a baby any less evil because it has a new body? What would you do with Rosemary's baby?

There is no such thing as good and evil for starters, morality is relative to cultures and ages.
What would you do with Rosemary's baby?..something illegal I am pretty sure.
If I was a Police officer reading this I would have you traced and monitored, unless I have got the wrong end of the stick entirely..

The fact that demons and devils live on earth among us and do not show their true pure evil is a blessing from GOD that their evil is controlled and surpressed so we can live here. IS satan smart enough to have some of his demonic minions live lives of worldy good and peace? You betcha!

A psychotic statement.

So number one, the life one leads cannot be the criteria for hell, only your self chosen eternal character and self created eternal relationship with GOD.

So it doesnt matter what you do, malevolent or benign...all that matters is you pay lip service to God...how bizarre.

And, as far as hell goes, I do not know what is symbol and what is exactly real and I do not care. I am learning to trust GOD that whatever HE wants to do with a demon or a devil, (whether in human form or spirit being, whether an old human or a very young human), is fine by me.

People who believe the above need psychological help in my scientific opinion.

Holiness is a choice to hate evil and choose only good and the base, the essence of idolatry is to stand against GOD's will for HIS eternal enemies.

The act of hatred itself is deletrious, you should not hate.

If God is all powerful then His having enemies seems a bit pointless.

[Serpent Oracle]

No one deserves everlasting eternal punishment.

Only a truly sick mind could envisage that as being appropriate.

Hitler does not deserve everlasting punishment, despite his genocidal assault upon millions of innocent men women and children.

There is nothing Holy about vengeance and inflicting suffering.

Certainly people who do not believe in God but otherwise are decent human beings do not deserve Hell.

The argument raised by Ted that these Godless humans are demonic pretenders in human form is a fine example of the total insanity of Abrahamic religion & faith.
Also it's a good representative argument to have such people kept under house arrest or perhaps incarcerated in a psychiatric institution...I found his comments about 'demonic' babies particularly disturbing.

He could do more damage to the credibility of Christianity as a religion of Love & Forgiveness in one post than a legion of Devils ever could...and for that I take this oppurtunity to thank him.

Thanks Ted...you are doing a great job, keep it up.

[Serpent Oracle]

As with most such speculative matters, we do not claim to know the answers, and we leave them to God.

Or, in its shorter form: "We trust God."

Or we could act rationally and dismiss such speculations, including the existence of the Christian tripartite God, as mindless nonsense.

We could see the false doctrine of Heaven and Hell for what it really is...a Carrot and a Stick...tools of control, to suppress and to manipulate.
This method works well with Donkeys and other dumb animals.

BTW if anyone thinks I am persecuting Christianity, they are right, but it's my religious duty to do so...my personal religion demands that I attack the Abrahamic faiths relentlessly and without cessation whenever possible.
So...while the Christians feel that they can persecute atheists and gays and even other types of religionist (like Satanists) with self righteous impunity...they must remember that it works both ways...and I will show no mercy, none at all.
There can be no reconcilliation or compromise...Christianity has been almost destroyed in my nation...thanks to all the hard work of thousands of sentients..Church attendance is the lowest in the western world here in England...and we are very proud of that indeed...but we cannot rest on our Laurels we must strive on...and bring the secular crusade to every corner of this planet...freeing people from superstition fear persecution and even death or torture.

We light a candle in the darkness of dogma, we are the light bearers

We (scientists) will lead mankind to the very stars...no fake promises of an ethereal Heaven...no dire threats of eternal Hell.

I know that many people embrace religion because the culture of their nation is so twisted and dysfunctional...like that of the USA...seeking refuge from the gross consumerism...that I understand...but you do not have to choose Christianity or Islam...there are better philosophies of living.

[ttruscott]

...
This is what I think God should have done: he should have presented the facts: I created you, and you have free will. And he would have proved these things. He wouldn't have told anyone to love him and he wouldn't have threatened to punish anyone. Then people would have either decided to love him simply out of gratitude that he created them, or they would have decided not to love him, for their own personal reasons.

Morning Jake,
first, thanks for the kind words about my clumsy efforts.

IF GOD as GOD told you HE was your creator and that you had free will, would you respond to HIM freely, ie without any concern as to the great difference of power for instance? I see the potential for this to coerce our will so it is not entirely free.

So, IF he presented the same fact but from a non-divine appearance but like one of us it is up to us to do with that as we want, believe or not as you say.

There are a lot of folk who believe that GOD did in fact create us the way you suggest...that HE had no moral imperative but created us to be able to find our moral perfection by our collective trial and error over the millenia. But the Bible seems to insist that HE is not a watchworks kind of guy, but takes a great interest in our lives and moral development.

The Bible story seems to insist that a moral imperative was indeed necessary to GOD as it formed the essence of the purpose He created us to fulfill. Love, praise, worship all have an amoral or evil opposite.

So to me it seems that the direction HE suggested for our free will with consequences fully explored comes from HIS reavealed nature as a moral being wanting a loving realtionship, (and not an ant colony in a narrow glass house).

I can only assume that by doing it this way, He in fact was giving it HIS stamp of approval so to speak as the perfect way to achieve HIS purpose.

In fact, I believe that love made on faith is far less meaningful than love based on information....

What is missing form my summary is that we have no idea of how long this process took for the ideas about GOD and our free will to diseminate though the community of spirits. But a community seems to be there which imples that people did get to know each other very well and to have favourites, lovers in a non-physical sense, etc.

I take this from verses that suggest satan was in high regard and a choir master before he came to reject GOD's purpose. [Ezekiel 28:13, Isaiah 14:11-14] which tells us a lot about the society of spirits before the choice and the fall. There was community, achievment and a hierarchy of achievment and status.

Time and community must have been involved and I'm sorry that even my long version left such important things out. It must have been much more 'organic' than the sterile decide or die I've given. Sorry... You are the first person to ask about this aspect of things so I've never included it in even my long form, though I've been thinking of it for a long time. Perhaps this question and answer style is ok, though.

God's Purpose and Intent

They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice.

Why? What is achieved by this? What is the point? Why did God do any of this?

The whole point is love. The premise is love can only be real if is comes by true free will. Therefore, the logic follows that GOD had to set up a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own true free will choice.

Their free will had to uncoerced and their decision had to be based on a full understanding of all results, including the fact that this info came from this unproven god's pov.

Justification of Hell

It was also apparent that IF a love so pure it could never turn against the object of its love was to be possible by a personal true free will choice, then, for a true choice to be present, it must also be possible that the outcome of the personal true free will choice could be pure evil, or an evil so committed to evil it will never / can never choose to reject their evil to try to seek good.

Why was it apparent? Why couldn't God simply create Heaven, and then create a dark place where no one is happy but no one is being tortured by fire? You've jumped straight to the conclusion that if there is something good, there must be something equally bad. This isn't logical. We don't live in a world of polar opposites. And even if I accepted your logic that if there is Heaven there MUST be Hell, I would argue that there shouldn't be a Heaven if it comes at such a high cost. I would gladly die forever and never go to Heaven if I could save people from going to Hell.

In order of your questions in this paragraph:

The apparent nature of free will choice being able to create either a full spectrum of good and evil to the extreme limit of each depends upon the nature of choice. A true choice must have at least two alternatives or more.

If pure love is one alternative, what is the other? It seems apparent to me that if I can choose evil lite instead of love, I can also choose an evil that is completely black.

Then there is the definition of what is evil and good...? Once GOD is involved, HIS will is good, outside HIS will is evil. Rejecting HIS will forever is total evil. Accepting HIS will is good but falling away after that is evil lite, ie it can be 'fixed' by the gospel promise.

My thoughts about the nature of hell as a dark place of separation or a lake of fire are not set as you may have noticed from my refusal to say more than hell exists.

IF we were created as eternal spirits (which has a certain GODly élan about it) then hell must be eternal but
IF we get our eternal life from GOD at our resurection, ie we were not created eternal, then hell may just be a place of ending.

We get to choose and put our faith in either one, (or reject both as many do).

Is the lake of fire allegorical for the suffering one will feel when separated from GOD for eternity by their own choice? Or is it fact? I have no idea, nor do I yet feel the need to choose. Whatever GOD wants to do with HIS eternal enemies will be fine to me as I am learning to trust HIS will on such things much better than my own understanding.

My thoughts about your thoughts of "gladly dying forever to save someone from hell;"

that is pretty much how the elect first fell, choosing to rebel against GOD's plan to damn the reprobate (those devolved by self chosen opposition into demons and devils).

Remember I wrote:

Some enterprising spirits asked: "But what if we choose to bow to you as God to escape hell and then ignored you forever?"

Well, that did happen and most likely for just such a reason as you have expressed here, except for the forever part.

Life on earth is physical so we can feel pain on a full mental, spiritual, bodlily level. All pain comes form being against or outside of GOD's will, ie being in a state of sin.

This pain is designed and your whole life (if you are elect) is designed to bring you to the realization that evil is in fact bad, ie morally repugnant and GOD's will is loving and morally perfect.

We are being trained in holiness and our teachers are the non-elect who constantly prove they will never repent, they will never stop attacking GOd's people, they will never stop hating. They make bad countrymen, worse neighbours and horrible family members.

The end result has been promised: all the sinful elect will be brought back to their first true free will acceptance of GOD's will and become holy which will bring the judgment day upon HIS eternal enemies.

As for the cost of heaven being hell: in the realm of possibilities it must have been obvious that creation of beings capable of making true free will decisions must open creation to:
1. all accepting HIS will
2. all rejecting HIS will
3. a mix of both

so to proceed at all must indicate that even if no one chose HIS will it was worth the chance. And if even one chose HIM and become elect and all others failed, and that one later rebelled, Christ would die on the cross to redeem him and bring him back.

Our existance in the face of GOD's (supposed; HE is still hiding, eh?) interaction with us for HIS purpose tells us a lot about the elements of the best way possible for HIM to achieve HIS purpose.

I apologize if I misunderstood your story, it was a bit hard to follow. I haven't written here in my post half of what I wrote in my notes during my first reading of your post, because I've decided critiquing the inconsistencies and fallacies in your logic isn't really relevant. What I want to know is why did God need to do any of this and do you really believe someone should burn for their sins instead of having the error of their ways explained to them rationally, with love and compassion?

Whether they burn or not is unanswerable at this time, so I ignore it.

Proof destroys free will.

If I tell tell you behind this door is a tiger but behind that door is a way out, do you have a choice. Yes, you can choose to believe me or not. But if I show you a peek at the tiger and then at the path out, do you have a choice? In a sense you do but who will chose death, no extenuating circumstances, nothing else considered?

Really, knowing the proof of the tiger forces/coerces/constrains self interest to chose the door to life.

Remember "it is all about love?"
But the door to love cannot be forced that way. Love is only real if it come by true (based on full knowledge) free (completly uncoered in any way) will/volition/decision/choice.

So once the proof of the reality you are in is given, no free will choice can be made to change your mind. Love isn't like opening the door and seeing the tiger and so jumping back and shutting the door. That would be choosing self interest over death and pretending it was true love.

In the time of things, it happened that all true free will choices, ie based upon hope without proof, and changes of mind were over, so GOD gave us all the proof of HIS divinity and power by the creation of the physical universe before our eyes and ever knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise.

Could those who chose to scorn our GOD Almighty as a false god and worse because he lied about being god so they were in fact his superior and they would never bow to anyone,

could these now say with truth, "ok, I see the tiger, I repent and I will love you now that you have proven yourself"? I'm sure they did but I'm also sure that such a forced attitude would never bring them to true love or true acceptence of HIS will because it was a decision forced upon them and not their own true free choice at all.

That is why they can't be taught out of their choice nor loved back to to GOD. No amount of love or reason in the universe could change the fact that they could never by free will choose real love and no facsimile is acceptable to GOD.

Therefore, since they could never fulfill GOD's purpose for them (to love by free will) they had to be dealt with as HE had discussed with us all. What that means I wait to see.

Peace, Ted

[Serpent Oracle]

Could those who chose to scorn our GOD Almighty as a false god and worse because he lied about being god so they were in fact his superior and they would never bow to anyone,

That is not even a literate or grammatically coherent sentence but lets make a start here...

I am better than your God, far far better.

I am more moral, more empathic, more just and vastly more intelligent than your Abrahamic God as described by the Bible Torah and Koran.
I know this because I see what harm belief in Him has caused millions of people.
From Crusades to Witch hunts...your God has no concience or ethical constraint...there is no limit to His savagery and malevolence, just look at the case histories and if you can't think of any I can suggest about 20 from the top of my head.
No...I am far better than your God, a better being.

could these now say with truth, "ok, I see the tiger, I repent and I will love you now that you have proven yourself"? I'm sure they did but I'm also sure that such a forced attitude would never bring them to true love or true acceptence of HIS will because it was a decision forced upon them and not their own true free choice at all.

What a strange God, to create creatures soley to play a game with them, creating a demonic tempter and his legions to lure His children into eternal Hell and Damnation.

That is why they can't be taught out of their choice nor loved back to to GOD. No amount of love or reason in the universe could change the fact that they could never by free will choose real love and no facsimile is acceptable to GOD.

Real love?
You mean surrender your will and reason?
As the Muslims say...Surrender your will to become God's slave?
Blowing yourself up on Trains...stoning harlots...burning witches...conducting Holy Crusades...etc.

Better to reign in Hell I think

Much better, Satan is clearly the Thinker..

Therefore, since they could never fulfill GOD's purpose for them (to love by free will) they had to be dealt with as HE had discussed with us all. What that means I wait to see.

I can't wait.

Perhaps there will be a ledge or place in Heaven where you can watch the evil ones burn in agony forever?

I wonder if that one way ticket to paradise you got printed...is as real as you hope it is.

Incidently...do not ever ask for whom the Bell tolls...it tolls for thee.

[Serpent Oracle]

Btw not picking on you Ted..was invited here to assist the author of the thread, by the author of the thread.

Peace!

[ttruscott]

...

Every belief can be ridiculed and countered with an adverse interetation.

God supports the notion everyone gets to believe what they want.

I do not post to instruct but in hopes someone looks for GOD,

Peace, Ted