Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[Nickman]

I will begin by agreeing with your assessment of Is.7:14. The problem is not with Is.7:14, but with a proper undestanding of Mattityahu's use of the term "fulfill". It is common for rabbis to take a well known passage and use it to illustrate a point being made that is not directly related to the context of the original passage. This is what I believe Mattityahu is doing when he uses the term "fulfilled". The point of the illustration is filled out in the point of the midrash. In this specific case, the salvation of the nation of Israel, that is assured through the birth of the child who's mother calls him Emmanuel, is seen in the coming of Yeshua. As the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz, whom his mother called Emmanuel, garaunteed that Ahaz would be delivered from Retzin the king of Aram and Pekach the son of Remalyah, king of Isra'el, so Adonai's people would be saved from HaSatan and the apostate leadership of Isra'el through Yeshua.

Jesus was never called "god with us". Please provide said usage.

I never said He was. I said, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz was. Mattityahu is playing off of that to make a point from a shared cultural tradition. He is not saying that Yesha'yahu was in fact speaking directly to the birth of Yeshua. It is common understanding that HaMashiach will save Isra'el from her enemies. This story of Emmanuel is about Isra'el being save from her enemies. So, Mattityahu frames the birth of Yeshua in the context of Emmanuel, because he is making the point that Adonai is with us. Again, you might not agree with that view, but it is not an uncommon method of rabbinic teaching.

No, Matthew rips Isaiah 7:14 out of context and states that Jesus fulfilled this messianic prophecy.

Matthew 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel [g] (which means God with us).

This was fulfilled already as I have shown to be true. This shows that Matthew didn't understand that it was already fulfilled and he makes the verse into something it is not.

Wrong again mate. The prophet said that an "Almah"=unmarried woman would be with child etc, and Matthew said nothing about a virgin, what Matthew says is, "All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 The "Parthenos=unmarried girl," will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel.

The word virgin in reference to the mother of Jesus, was not introduced into the bible until 405 AD with the erroneous translation by Jerome in the Latin vulgate.

BTW, I have never, never, never, never, said that Jesus was God, but that he was the host body through which the spirit of the "SON of MAN," revealed himself.

And your statement was that Jesus was never called, "God is with us" and you asked for evidence to prove that he has been called "God is with us."

Good heavens man are you that blind? Open your eyes man. Are you honestly trying to say that the children of the bride of the Anti-Christ and all their denominational daughter bodies, do not worship Jesus as their God? Do they not pray to Jesus who they believe is with them, as their God? have you never heard them say, "Jesus our 'god is with us'?"

Again you didn't provide any verses that say that Jesus is call "god with us"

I don't have to, none of the apostle believed that Jesus was God and nowhere will you find that reference in the holy scripture, for what the scripture says, is that the child born to the "Parthenos=unmarried woman" would be called "GOD IS WITH US," and only a blind person would believe that he has not been referred to as the God who is with us.

1st Timothy 1: 1; "From Paul, an apostle of Jesus the anointed one by order of GOD OUR SAVIOUR and the anointed one Jesus OUR HOPE.

I also showed Isaiah 7:14 being fulfilled in 8:3. So the subject is moot if your trying to make Matthew 1:22-24 to be a fulfillment of Isaiah.

[The Tongue]

I will begin by agreeing with your assessment of Is.7:14. The problem is not with Is.7:14, but with a proper undestanding of Mattityahu's use of the term "fulfill". It is common for rabbis to take a well known passage and use it to illustrate a point being made that is not directly related to the context of the original passage. This is what I believe Mattityahu is doing when he uses the term "fulfilled". The point of the illustration is filled out in the point of the midrash. In this specific case, the salvation of the nation of Israel, that is assured through the birth of the child who's mother calls him Emmanuel, is seen in the coming of Yeshua. As the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz, whom his mother called Emmanuel, garaunteed that Ahaz would be delivered from Retzin the king of Aram and Pekach the son of Remalyah, king of Isra'el, so Adonai's people would be saved from HaSatan and the apostate leadership of Isra'el through Yeshua.

Jesus was never called "god with us". Please provide said usage.

I never said He was. I said, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz was. Mattityahu is playing off of that to make a point from a shared cultural tradition. He is not saying that Yesha'yahu was in fact speaking directly to the birth of Yeshua. It is common understanding that HaMashiach will save Isra'el from her enemies. This story of Emmanuel is about Isra'el being save from her enemies. So, Mattityahu frames the birth of Yeshua in the context of Emmanuel, because he is making the point that Adonai is with us. Again, you might not agree with that view, but it is not an uncommon method of rabbinic teaching.

No, Matthew rips Isaiah 7:14 out of context and states that Jesus fulfilled this messianic prophecy.

Matthew 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel [g] (which means God with us).

This was fulfilled already as I have shown to be true. This shows that Matthew didn't understand that it was already fulfilled and he makes the verse into something it is not.

Wrong again mate. The prophet said that an "Almah"=unmarried woman would be with child etc, and Matthew said nothing about a virgin, what Matthew says is, "All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 The "Parthenos=unmarried girl," will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel.

The word virgin in reference to the mother of Jesus, was not introduced into the bible until 405 AD with the erroneous translation by Jerome in the Latin vulgate.

BTW, I have never, never, never, never, said that Jesus was God, but that he was the host body through which the spirit of the "SON of MAN," revealed himself.

And your statement was that Jesus was never called, "God is with us" and you asked for evidence to prove that he has been called "God is with us."

Good heavens man are you that blind? Open your eyes man. Are you honestly trying to say that the children of the bride of the Anti-Christ and all their denominational daughter bodies, do not worship Jesus as their God? Do they not pray to Jesus who they believe is with them, as their God? have you never heard them say, "Jesus our 'god is with us'?"

Again you didn't provide any verses that say that Jesus is call "god with us"

I don't have to, none of the apostle believed that Jesus was God and nowhere will you find that reference in the holy scripture, for what the scripture says, is that the child born to the "Parthenos=unmarried woman" would be called "GOD IS WITH US," and only a blind person would believe that he has not been referred to as the God who is with us.

1st Timothy 1: 1; "From Paul, an apostle of Jesus the anointed one by order of GOD OUR SAVIOUR and the anointed one Jesus OUR HOPE.

I also showed Isaiah 7:14 being fulfilled in 8:3. So the subject is moot if your trying to make Matthew 1:22-24 to be a fulfillment of Isaiah.

Don't stick too many tickets on yourself matey, you have merely said in reference to Isaiah's prophecy to King Ahaz, what bible students have been saying for hundreds of years.

My objection to you was in reference to your statement that Isaiah and Matthew were referring to a virgin being pregnant, which neither were.

Isaiah used the Hebrew term for an unmarried woman, "ALMAH" which can in no way ever be translated as "VIRGIN." The Hebrew has a term for "VIRGIN" which is (bethulah) the word that is used in every instance in the Old Testament where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man is referred to. Young's Analytic concordance give the meaning to "ALMAH" as (Concealment; Unmarried female).

Matthew, in translating into Greek, "which does not have a specific term for Virgin" the prophecy of the Lord through Isaiah, for whatever reasons that Matthew chose to reference Isaiah, used the Greek word "Parthenos," which carries the basic meaning of an unattached male or female, and refers to "Virgin" only by implication, such as the young Panthenos =The unmarried Mary, implied that she was a virgin three months before she was found to be pregnant with the child of Joseph the son of Heli, by stating that at that time, she had never known a man.

[The Tongue]

Was Jesus the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible? No! Jesus was the one who was chosen to be King and High priest in the line of succession to Melchezedic, but Like Solomon of whom God said, He shall be my son and I shall be his Father, He is not the Messiah, who brings the nations of the world into subjection to his chosen heir and successor.

Elijah, the prophet of fire, who was carried up to stand before Enoch, and who is to appear immediately before the day of God's wrath, like our Heavenly Father Enoch, has now been in the valley of man for three days also. He is soon to be reborn on earth as was Enoch, and he will quicken his chosen host body by his presence and that body in which He who will soon be seen is his glorious Temple of Light, around whom the required number of Jews and Gentiles, who are the resurrected body of Christ=the anointed one, and who will take the thrones that are prepared for them, will be gathered.

The Jewish Messiah is Elijah the prophet of fire.

Sirach Chapter 48; Until there arose a prophet like fire, whose word was like a burning furnace, He shut up the heavens so that no rain should fall, and thrice did he call down fire from heaven.

How terrible wast thou, Elijah! Who anointed Kings for retribution, and a prophet as successor in thy place. Who was taken upward in a whirlwind and hidden in the heavenly chambers.

Who art ready for the time, as it is written, to still wrath before the fierce anger of God and to turn the heart of the fathers unto the children and to restore the tribes of Israel. Blessed is he that sees thee and dies.

The Passover, represents the day when the angel of death will Passover the earth and visit every house that is not protected by the blood of the sacrificial lamb, and it was the custom of the Jews at the Passover meal, to sent the youngest and most innocent of the household to open the door and allow the spiritual Elijah who appears immediately before the great day of Gods wrath, to enter their house.

The 850 false prophets that were slaughtered by Elijah, were all Baal worshippers, much the same as the Baal worshippers of today, those of the universal church, who worship the immortal God in the image of a mortal man, and the male members of the Jesuite order, who are known as Servite Friars or Servants of Mary their heavenly queen, who herself was supposed to have been born of immaculate conception and was carried to heaven and is now worshipped as the Mother of God, who they claim is co-redeemer of the body of Man, and the mediator between man and her son, who they believe is the co-creator of the cosmos, these are all Baal worshippers and will be brought to nothing by the fiery spirit of Elijah, the Messenger of God.

One of the most important Holy days of their heavenly queen, is the Feast of the Assumption, celebrated every year on August 15, its a very old feast of the Church, celebrated universally by the sixth century, and it commemorates the death of Mary and her bodily assumption into Heaven, before her body could begin to decompose. Like those servants of Mary, the servants of Asherah, would pray to their heavenly mother to intercede with their Baal God for them.

According to ancient mythology, Asherah, the mother goddess, was the wife of El the creator, and mother of seventy gods, (Jesus chose 70 brothers and sent them out to preach the good news) of whom Baal was the most famous, and through their heavenly mother of the Gods, they worshipped also, Baal the most important of her sons.

King James Translation: When Ahab returned, without the prophets of Baal from the grove,, and told Jezebel everything that Elijah had done, and how he had put ALL the prophets of Baal to death by the sword. She sent a message to Elijah, saying, may the Lord strike her dead, if she had not done to him by the same time tomorrow, that which he had done to one of them. Then Elijah, who had put all 850 prophets of Baal to the sword, bolted, in fear of his life.

How wonderful it would be, if today's worshipers of Baal, could see the error of their ways and turn to the immortal God, who manifests himself in the entire creation, before the appearance of the fiery visitation of Elijah the Messenger, who is to come and prepare the way for the Lord?

Elijah who was carried up to stand by Enoch's side
Stood by the brook of Kishron where the priests of Baal all died
It was he who gave the order and the waters all turned red
As fifty and eighty hundred more, false prophets all fell dead.
Will you fight the war 'gainst ignorance? The war that will be won
By those who weild the S-word of God, the sharpe two edged tongue....The Tongue

In Jesus, we saw the descending spirit of the The Son of MAN In John the Baptist, you saw the ascending evolving spirit of the Son of Man, the prophet of fire, the fire and brimstone preaching prophet of God, who had slaughtered the priests of Baal and his Goddess mother.

Elijah is the Son of Man," that the Old Testament scriptures refer to as revealed by Jesus himself, when asked in Mark 9: 12; why it was written that Elijah must come first, he answered, Elijah is indeed coming first, (Future tense) and will restore all things, yet why do the scriptures say, that the Son of Man, must suffer many thing and be treated with contempt But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him (The Son of Man) in scripture.

MALACHI 3: 1-2; The Lord Almighty says, I will send my messenger (Elijah) to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple (His chosen host body, who shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of brilliant and blinding light.) The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.

But who will be able to endure the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears? He will be like strong soap, like a fire that refines metal. He will come to judge like one who refines and purifies silver. As a metal worker refines silver and gold, So the Lords messenger (Elijah) will purify the priests so that they bring the right kind of offerings, etc.

Who is the messenger who prepares the way for the Lord? Who is he who destroyed those Baal worshippers who would dare to worship the immortal god in the form of a mortal man?

As Jesus was the earthly temple for Enoch who had been in the valley of man for three days, or rather three periods of one thousand years, then Who is the earthly Temple which will be quickened by the spirit of Elijah who has now been in the valley of man for three days also?

Through his earthly servant Jesus, the Lord said; He who believes on me, even though he dies, yet shall he live again, but he who believes on me and lives, will never die.

Jesus did not have to die, he was the compilation of all the spirits of good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, and who were judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and had been gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch our ancestral Father, in the bosom of Abraham and his descendants and over them, the second death had no power, but to prove that the concept that the death of the body was the end of life, he was obedient to our Father even unto his cruel death on the cross.

John 14: 30; I cannot talk to you much longer, because (DEATH) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me. But the world must know that I love the Father, that is why I do everything as he commands me.

Jesus the host body to our ancestral Father has proven that they who believe on Him who sent Jesus, even though they die, yet shall they live again. The chosen host body to Elijah, will prove that he who lives and believes, shall never die.

The indwelling ancestral Father of Jesus, who dwelt behind the veil of the flesh within the inner most sanctuary of the temple that was the body of Jesus, was Enoch, the compilation of all the spirits of Good people who had been gathered to him in his evolution to become Jesus, who learned through suffering to be true to and an extension of WHO HE WAS.

On the cross, Jesus cried out, My God, my God, why have you abandoned me," as the spiritual Enoch ceased to be an individual entity, and the graves of the spirits of who he was their compilation, were opened, and three days later, they entered the city of Jerusalem, where they showed themselves as the risen Christ.

Matthew 27: 52, And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that slept arose. Verse 53, And came out of the graves and three days later after the resurrection, they went into the Holy city and appeared to many.

One would expect the risen body to appear to the family of Jesus first, and this is exactly what we see.

The first to see one of they, who were of body of the risen Christ, the 365 day old unblemished Lamb of God, reborn on earth as Jesus who was offered up for our sake, were his Mother, Mary the wife of Cleophas and her Adelphe Mary Magdalene, who, although looking straight at him, thought that he was the gardener, until he spoke her name.

The next to who one of the risen body of Christ appeared, were Cleophas who is also called Alpheaus the carpenter, who is the biological father of James the youngest of Mary's three biological sons, and James was the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision, and Cleophas was the husband of Mary, who, with his son Simon, 'to another marriage,' who was to inherit the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision after his half brother, 'James the righteous,' was killed at the instigation of the same Sadducee sect that had his full brother Jesus killed.

Although Cleophas and Simon walked and talked with one of the risen body of Christ for some 11 kilometres, they did not recognise him for who he was, until Simon saw the manner in which he broke the bread, Cleophas then returned to Jerusalem, where eleven of the disciples, which included Simon Peter and Simon the Patriot, were cowering in a darkened room, the only one absent that evening when Jesus appeared in that dimly lit room in the form that they recognised as Jesus, was Thomas Didymus Jude another half brother of Jesus, who was called the Twin, although nowhere does the bible say that he was an actual twin or whether he just held a striking resemblance to someone else. But back to Cleophas, who said to the eleven, "He has risen, he appeared to Simon," who was of course Simon the brother of Jesus who succeeded James the younger as the head of the church founded by Jesus.

Then there were the seven disciples who were fishing on Lake Galilee having no success at all, when someone on the bank told them to throw their net on the right side of the boat in which they caught 153 fishes, sitting down to eat with the person who had a fire prepared with fish on it and some bread, not one of the seven disciples of Jesus who had walked and talked with him, dared to ask who he was, but they understood that he was of the risen body of Christ.

Even when he ascended up into heaven as a cloud, some of the 11 disciples doubted that it was he.

1 Peter 4: 18-20, For Christ was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, and in his spiritual existence he descended into the world of dead and he preached the good news to those who were disobedient in the days when Noah was building the boat.

Chapter 4: 6, and the good news was preached to the dead, to those who had been judged in the physical existence as all are judged, so that in their spiritual existence they might live as God live,s and God is the indwelling spirit to whom all the spirits of good people who fall asleep in righteousness are gathered.

Those spirits to whom Jesus had descended and preached the good news, those who had been Judged in the flesh as all are judged and had been found worthy of the resurrection, are the spirits that were poured out as fire on the heads of all those who had believed the words of our saviour which were spoken through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, and they in their spiritual existence, dwelt within the body of man, gathering to themselves the good spirits of the descendants of the ones, who, on the day of Pentecost received their share of the hidden Manna, a little tongue of fire, a living spiritual cell of the body of our saviour who gave his immortal body of light for us and who rose Jesus from death as the first fruits of those who are to be redeemed from the dead past of the only exception of all mankind, who, at the age of 365 was carried into the eighth heaven.

For Enoch says; And God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first day after his works, and it is a day eternal, with neither hours, days, weeks, months, or years: For all time is stuck together in one aeon, and all who enter therein shall be surrounded by great light, and they shall know peace.

And they, the spiritual cells of the immortal Son of MAN who now live in their spiritual existence as God lives, will be resurrected as the body of Christ when they have each gathered to themselves the required number of righteous spirits who have paid the blood price for the sins of their life on earth, and they who are but the compilation of those enclosures of spirits who do not have to suffer the second death, are they of the first resurrection, will each choose for themselves an earthly host body, in which to be reborn on earth, who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and the resurrected body of CHRIST will rule the Sabbath, the day of the Lord.

From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (Who I Am,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.

After The Day of the Lord, the Great Sabbath of one thousand years, the seventh day from the first day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930, fire will descend from heaven and incinerate all physical life forms on this planet, fulfilling the prophecy of the Lord through his prophet Zephaniah 1: 2-3; The Lord said, I am going to destroy everything on earth. All human beings and animals, birds, and fish. I will bring about the down fall of the wicked. I will destroy all mankind, and no survivors will be left. I, the Lord, have spoken.

!8; On the day when the Lord shows his fury, not even all their silver and gold will save them. The whole earth will be destroyed by the fire of his anger. He will put an end---a sudden end---to everyone who lives on earth.

During the thousand years of peace, and knowing the cataclysmic event that awaits the earth and with the great wealth paid as tribute by the nations of the earth, a genetic bank of all the relevant life forms will be created to repopulate the earth when it is again capable of sustaining Life.

When all physical life forms on this planet has been incinerated, the elect and chosen who were the resurrected body of the ANOINTED ONE, over who the second death has no power, will be caught up to heaven to sit with Jesus=Enoch in the throne of Godhead to the entire creation visible and invisible, and it is He, who, when the time is right, and all the infrastructure for the sustainability for mankind has been restored on the earth, will say; And now, let us make man in our image.

Under the guidance of Jupiter (Planet) man prepares, by means of religious exercises, for the journey to the life beyond (the human existence) and he attains rest under the influence of Saturn. (Basra Encyclopaedia), --- De Boer, Philosophy in Islam, p, 88.

The world being melted and re-entered into the bosom of Jupiter, this God continues for some time totally concentered in himself: . . . afterwards we see a new world spring from him, perfect in all its parts; animals are produced anew; an innocent race of man is formed under more favourable auspices, in order to people this earth. " Seneca, Epist, 9, and Qucest. Nat. L. 3, c, ult.

PS:..........This Thomas=Tauma, the Aramiac for twin, is also called Didymus, which is the Greek for twin, he is Thomas Didymus Jude, the brother of Jesus and the son of the carpenter Alpheaus/Cleophas the second Husband Of Mary the mother of Jesus.

Knowing that in ART, Thomas Didymus Jude, the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, is depicted with a carpenters rule and square, we must ask the question, "Who is the Carpenter to whom Mary was married at that time, when her family consisted of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Was it Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah, who was her first husband, or was it Alpheaus/Cleophas the second husband of Mary and the Father of James the biological son of Mary and the youngest boy in the family, plus Simon and Jude, who is also called Judas Thomas, meaning twin?

In "The Acts of Thomas, sometime called by its full name, "The Acts of Judas Thomas," 2nd-3rd century CE, "The Apostles cast lots as to where they should go, and to Thomas, Judas, brother to Jesus fell India. Thomas was taken to King Goddophares the ruler of Indo-Pathian Kingdom as an architect and carpenter by Habban.

[Mithrae]

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

As far as I'm aware - and I've brought this up numerous times without contradiction - there are only two places in the Tanakh in which specific future individuals are called 'messiah' (anointed). One of those is the Persian king Cyrus the Great, whose conquest of Babylonia led to the Jews' return to Judea and the rebuilding of the temple (Isaiah 45:1). The other is:

• Daniel 9:25. And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.
  26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

Jewish translations (Chabad version above and 1917 JPS version) have two 'messiahs' here, one after 7 sevens and one after 62 sevens; Christian translations tend to have one 'messiah' after 7 and 62 sevens. Either way, it's clearly a prediction that a 'messiah' would be cut off and be no more after 7 sevens and 62 sevens, followed by the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and the temple).

The most obvious beginning of the 7 sevens and 62 sevens is c538 BCE when (mere months after the alleged date of Daniel's writing) permission was given for the Jewish people to return and rebuild their temple (Ezra 1). The second most obvious beginning is "the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem" given by Artaxerxes (Nehemiah 1&2). The first suggests a 'messiah' who would die around 55 BCE (c538 minus 483), followed by the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. The second suggests a 'messiah' who would die around 38 CE (c445BCE minus 483), followed by the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

There's difficulties with either view - there was no everlasting righteousness and all that nonsense, so in neither view did the full 70 sevens come out right - but frankly I'd say Christians have the better part of the bargain there: They actually have a 'messiah' who was cut off at least in vaguely the right time-frame (c30-36 CE). And it was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 CE by the Romans; in three thousand years that's happened twice, once <50 years before Daniel allegedly wrote, and once <40 years after this alleged 'messiah' died.

[Clownboat]

...If I was a poor Jew, I would be eager too. Now, who did Jesus target? The rich or the poor?...

Well, there was Zacchaeus who was wealthy enough. And Matthew was also a tax collector in league with the Romans. And Joseph of Arimathea was wealthy. John and James were apparently among the upper levels of society, given their association with the high priest and their family fishing business. And whoever provided the room for the Last Supper would have had access to wealth, to say nothing of the women who supported Jesus financially.

...Not a good argument in my opinion.

Okay, you're entitled to your opinion.

Perhaps I should have been more clear.
- Jesus did not avoid rich people, but his target audience was the poor. His initial base of followers was likely taken over from John the Baptist after he lost his head.

I was addressing the "some people were eager to follow him claim".

I have to be honest, this is the first time I have heard the "family fishing business" claim. Is that assumed, or is there evidence that points to that? Being a fisherman was a lowly job in those days, owning a boat could be a different story.

[Clownboat]

Nope. I'm saying that the resurrection was a bonus, a surprise, coming from a God who is portrayed in the OT as a very surprising character.

Actually, you said:
"So it seems the issue of Messiahship hinges on whether the resurrection occurred, and not on what Jews today happen to think. Thus, your objection/point is not valid unless you can demonstrate that the resurrection did not occur." (Page 1 I believe)

[Nickman]

Don't stick too many tickets on yourself matey, you have merely said in reference to Isaiah's prophecy to King Ahaz, what bible students have been saying for hundreds of years.

My objection to you was in reference to your statement that Isaiah and Matthew were referring to a virgin being pregnant, which neither were.

Isaiah used the Hebrew term for an unmarried woman, "ALMAH" which can in no way ever be translated as "VIRGIN." The Hebrew has a term for "VIRGIN" which is (bethulah) the word that is used in every instance in the Old Testament where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man is referred to. Young's Analytic concordance give the meaning to "ALMAH" as (Concealment; Unmarried female).

Matthew, in translating into Greek, "which does not have a specific term for Virgin" the prophecy of the Lord through Isaiah, for whatever reasons that Matthew chose to reference Isaiah, used the Greek word "Parthenos," which carries the basic meaning of an unattached male or female, and refers to "Virgin" only by implication, such as the young Panthenos =The unmarried Mary, implied that she was a virgin three months before she was found to be pregnant with the child of Joseph the son of Heli, by stating that at that time, she had never known a man.

I never once said that Isaiah says virgin. What I did say is that it most certainly does not mean virgin. Matthew says it does which is incorrect. Matthew tried to make Isaiah mean virgin. Jesus birth is said to be that of a virgin. This has nothing to support it in the Hebrew bible.

[The Tongue]

Don't stick too many tickets on yourself matey, you have merely said in reference to Isaiah's prophecy to King Ahaz, what bible students have been saying for hundreds of years.

My objection to you was in reference to your statement that Isaiah and Matthew were referring to a virgin being pregnant, which neither were.

Isaiah used the Hebrew term for an unmarried woman, "ALMAH" which can in no way ever be translated as "VIRGIN." The Hebrew has a term for "VIRGIN" which is (bethulah) the word that is used in every instance in the Old Testament where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man is referred to. Young's Analytic concordance give the meaning to "ALMAH" as (Concealment; Unmarried female).

Matthew, in translating into Greek, "which does not have a specific term for Virgin" the prophecy of the Lord through Isaiah, for whatever reasons that Matthew chose to reference Isaiah, used the Greek word "Parthenos," which carries the basic meaning of an unattached male or female, and refers to "Virgin" only by implication, such as the young Panthenos =The unmarried Mary, implied that she was a virgin three months before she was found to be pregnant with the child of Joseph the son of Heli, by stating that at that time, she had never known a man.

I never once said that Isaiah says virgin. What I did say is that it most certainly does not mean virgin. Matthew says it does which is incorrect. Matthew tried to make Isaiah mean virgin. Jesus birth is said to be that of a virgin. This has nothing to support it in the Hebrew bible.

I stand corrected, you did not say that Isaiah referred to the unmarried prophetess who bore his child as a VIRGIN. What the prophet did say was that an "Almah"=unmarried woman" would be with child etc, and although your whole agenda on this forum is to attempt to denigrate all christians, their God, and their Holy Book, Matthew said nothing about a virgin, what Matthew says is, "All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 The "Parthenos=unmarried girl," will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel.

The word virgin in reference to the mother of Jesus, was not introduced into the bible until 405 AD with the deliberate erroneous translation by Jerome in the Latin vulgate, in his attempt to support the lies of those who abandoned the Jesus as taught by the apostles, and went chasing after another Jesus who was more closely related to the dominating Roman and Greek religion of those days.

That religion, was that of the heavenly queen Isis and her godchild Horus, who was sired by Osiris, who stood on the top of the staircase of the lower kingdom, (The MOST HIGH from the previous world which was the world of the dead past.)

It would be impossible for you to distinguish between the last of the Roman icons of Isis with the godchild Horus on her lap and the earliest Roman icons of their new heavenly queen and her godchild Jesus/Horus on her lap. (Even though the RCC, does not claim that the spiritual Father of their Jesus was Enoch the Most High from the previous world that was destroyed by water.)

In translating the Hebrew words of the prophet Isaiah, that an Almah an unmarried female is with child and will bear a son, into Greek, which unlike the Hebrew language, does not have a specific term for virgin, the authors of the Septuagint and Matthew correctly used the Greek word Parthenos, which carries a basic meaning of girl, or unmarried youth, and denotes virgin only by implication.

A more accurate rendering of the Greek parthenos is a person who does not have a regular sexual partner, a widow with a family of children, would be a parthenos, Hanna who nursed the baby Jesus before Mary performed the ceremony of purification, was a widow of seven years, and is referred to as a parthenos for seven years, but she was in no way, a virgin.

To translate something from the Hebrew to the Greek, or from any language to another, one must not lose the essence of the original, and the original was, that An young woman was with child. Therefore, as the greater majority of churches now admit, that the words of Isaiah, which refer to a child that had been sired by him, was, A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc. Matthew 1: 23; should now read, Now all this happened to make come true what the Lord had said through Isaiah, A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc. Because they all now admit that those were the words of Isaiah 7: 14.

Parthenos, was often used in reference to non-virgins who had never been married. Homer uses it in reference to unmarried girls who were no longer virgins, and Homer was the standard textbook for learning Greek all throughout antiquity, so any writer of Greek, including Matthew, who translated Isaiahs words, that (An unmarried woman would be with child etc) while being well aware of this words versatile and indefinite meaning; was in no way implying that Mary was a virgin.

For the Hebrew has a specific term for virgin, Bethulah which word is used in every instance in the Old Testament where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man is referred to, which is obviously not the case with the unmarried woman/Almah, who is mentioned in Isaiah 7:14.

In Pergamos, as one of the final stages in the quest for enlightenment, the initiated adept would participate in sex with the Temple Virgin/Parthenos.

"Parthenos" did not mean possessing an intact hymen. A parthenos was simply an unmarried woman, a woman who claimed ownership of herself.

So I again repeat, as much as you would like to make Matthew out to be some lying hypocrite, he did not refer to a VIRGIN, when he translated the Hebrew Isaiah 7: 14; into Greek, which has no specific term for VIRGIN, and by using the Greek term Parthenos Matthew was in no way implying that Mary was a virgin, his emphasis was on the fact that the child that was born to the unmarried Mary would be called God is with us, which no person in their right mind can deny that he has been called for near on two thousand years.

Now then, as I have confessed to one and all, that I was incorrect when I said that your reference to Isaiahs prophecy was concerning a virgin, which we all know that it was not, and neither was Matthews translation of that prophecy, I now await your public confession to being wrong when you stated:

[Nickman wrote]Exactly, it is not an aspect associated with the messiah. Because of this glaring fact, Jesus is disqualified as messiah because the OT is completely silent on it, to the point of its nonexistence.

You have to make resurrection into a later addition by god. Thats not a very good argument. Your basically saying, "well its not in the OT but it is still part of what the messiah was supposed to do."

When in the Old Testament, the resurrection IS pointed to in Psalms 16: 10; because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful servant one see decay.

In Acts 2: 25; Peter reveals that it was to Jesus that King David was referring when he said, And I, mortal that I am, will rest assured in hope, because you will not abandoned me in the world of the dead; you will not allow your faithful servant to rot in the grave, etc.

But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for something that you have "Apparently" been unable to do throughout your posts that I have read.

[cholland]

Yes, the prophet Isaiah wanted to declare that God was going to show the Jews a sign so extraordinary and miraculous as a birth from a "young woman."

Isaiah 7:14 says a woman is with child and will soon give birth. This phrase is mistranslated by the Christians to make it a future pregnancy. It then gives some gushing about the child.

Isaiah 8:3 has Isaiah identifying the woman, and tells he had intercourse with the woman to insure she conceived. ..He went to the prophetess and insured she conceived. .. So.. we know have .. an woman conceivinving by the action of a man.. not God...

Immanuel Maher-shalal-hash-baz

[bluethread]

I never once said that Isaiah says virgin. What I did say is that it most certainly does not mean virgin. Matthew says it does which is incorrect. Matthew tried to make Isaiah mean virgin. Jesus birth is said to be that of a virgin. This has nothing to support it in the Hebrew bible.

Then are you saying that the jewish translators of the Septuagint were doing the same thing? They use the same greek word. What makes you think Mattityahu is not understanding Is. 7:14? Could he not be saying that Yesha'yahu spoke of what has been translated (almah), but here we have a true (virgin) and the child of this true will truly save Adonai's people?