I was wondering if anyone who considers homosexuality a sin, could tell me what is wrong with it.
I'm talking in the sense of utilitarian morals. How does homosexual intercourse, or homosexual marriage, increase the suffering in the world?
Homosexuality
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The Ex-Mormon
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Post #31
This isn't correct. The Bible doesn't condemned Homosexuality, as we understood it today (as a loving same gender relationship), it condemned homosexuality not as a sin, but as a result of sin. E.g., wrote Paul in Romans chapter 1 about Christians which visiting pagan temples and forget God and his rules. In these temple, shrine prostitution was a daily business. Gay, straight, with animals, what ever they want, they can get it.
Paul use the word "natural" ("physin") and "unnatural" (para-physin) to describe such acts. But what does this words really means. Unnatural doesn't mean something, which isn't found in nature, it means what is AGAINST the OWN NATURE!
Post #32
@Ex-Mormon:
in NIV, Romans 1 : 26-27 start with the words "Because of this". I assume that's the reason you make the assumptions that homosexuality is the consequence of sin. But it doesn't mean God doesn't condemn it.
Leviticus 20:13:
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
"put to death" is quite clear to me that God condemns it. Compare to some other sins in the chapter where the offender would only be held responsible, but not put to death. One can certainly argue that its scope is only for gays, not lesbians (the verse only mentioned man, not woman). well, I can't find any explicit reference to lesbians other than Romans 1:26-27. all I can say is, God explicitly condemns gays in the bible (not just "because of this" topic like mentioned above).
in NIV, Romans 1 : 26-27 start with the words "Because of this". I assume that's the reason you make the assumptions that homosexuality is the consequence of sin. But it doesn't mean God doesn't condemn it.
Leviticus 20:13:
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
"put to death" is quite clear to me that God condemns it. Compare to some other sins in the chapter where the offender would only be held responsible, but not put to death. One can certainly argue that its scope is only for gays, not lesbians (the verse only mentioned man, not woman). well, I can't find any explicit reference to lesbians other than Romans 1:26-27. all I can say is, God explicitly condemns gays in the bible (not just "because of this" topic like mentioned above).
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The Ex-Mormon
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Post #33
The Bible was written a very long time ago. At that time, the people did not know what we know today. One cannot judge or condemn homosexuality therefore with the knowledge of the pastpreacher wrote: @Ex-Mormon:
in NIV, Romans 1 : 26-27 start with the words "Because of this". I assume that's the reason you make the assumptions that homosexuality is the consequence of sin. But it doesn't mean God doesn't condemn it.
Leviticus 20:13:
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
"put to death" is quite clear to me that God condemns it. Compare to some other sins in the chapter where the offender would only be held responsible, but not put to death. One can certainly argue that its scope is only for gays, not lesbians (the verse only mentioned man, not woman). well, I can't find any explicit reference to lesbians other than Romans 1:26-27. all I can say is, God explicitly condemns gays in the bible (not just "because of this" topic like mentioned above).
And still something:
If you have the possibility of reading the theological dictionary of Kittel's about the NT; deal with Romans 1(Verses 25-27) and the word "PARA-PHYSIN" there once. You will be surprised! The said book by the way is a standard reference for Protestant clergymen.
My arguments are correct because it comes from the original texts and biblical research results also.
Post #34
@Ex-Mormon:
no human shall judge other humans. a quote from Jesus in John 8:7:
Hebrews 12:14:
Leviticus 20:13 has literally put the last nail in the coffin regarding gay issue. it's God Himself that issued that command. Not Paul with his letters, nor any of the apostle (humans), but God Himself. So gays, God condemns you all, but no human is allowed to condemn you.
Regarding Romans verse, if God give those people up to something worthy of death penalty, that just would mean God really hates them. I just can't see any possible way to spin it as justification to homosexuality.
no human shall judge other humans. a quote from Jesus in John 8:7:
The bible however will judge you. So, what am I saying here? should a christian judge or not? after all, bible is identical with christians. so if bible condemns, christians should too, don't you think?Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.
Hebrews 12:14:
live peacefully with your neighbors, not just with fellow christians, but with all your neighbors. however, when they ask about what the bible say about their lifestyle, christians should speak the truth about what's written in the bible. christians should not judge, but they should tell the truth when asked. King David did business with neighboring (idol worshiping) kingdoms. Israel traded with all countries far and near, and coexisted peacefully with them all, well, excluding the times when they went to war with or invaded by other nations.Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Leviticus 20:13 has literally put the last nail in the coffin regarding gay issue. it's God Himself that issued that command. Not Paul with his letters, nor any of the apostle (humans), but God Himself. So gays, God condemns you all, but no human is allowed to condemn you.
Regarding Romans verse, if God give those people up to something worthy of death penalty, that just would mean God really hates them. I just can't see any possible way to spin it as justification to homosexuality.
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The Ex-Mormon
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Post #35
@ Preacher,
It is easy to give the responsibility to a God who is invisible and not existing. Or justifying the homophobia of one's own with that. But it is heavy, to face the facts.
And fact is; that the Bible does not claim what fundamentalist Christians understand about homosexuality.
An example:
"Homosexuality" was punished with the death in Leviticus. But also:
Eat or touch pigs
Wearing of clothes with mixed fibers
Adoration of other gods (the God of the Jews did not tolerate competition and other Gods)
Talking bad about the parents
Wear tatoo
As a pregnant woman have sex
And these are only some of the punishments threatened with the death.
You would become this as " look at a death worthy punishment today; if your friend carries a Tatoo, or your children clothes are from mixed fibers?
It is easy to give the responsibility to a God who is invisible and not existing. Or justifying the homophobia of one's own with that. But it is heavy, to face the facts.
And fact is; that the Bible does not claim what fundamentalist Christians understand about homosexuality.
An example:
"Homosexuality" was punished with the death in Leviticus. But also:
Eat or touch pigs
Wearing of clothes with mixed fibers
Adoration of other gods (the God of the Jews did not tolerate competition and other Gods)
Talking bad about the parents
Wear tatoo
As a pregnant woman have sex
And these are only some of the punishments threatened with the death.
You would become this as " look at a death worthy punishment today; if your friend carries a Tatoo, or your children clothes are from mixed fibers?
Post #36
@Ex-Mormon:
If Jesus hasn't died for us in the cross 2000+ years ago, yes, all those things you mentioned about touching pigs or mixed garments are sins and the punishment written for each of those sins will still apply now. I haven't had the time to read to verify whether all the things you mentioned were punishable by death in old testament, but I'll just assume you've read and verified that they're punishable by death. if that's the case and Jesus hasn't died for us to pay for our sins, then yes, people committing those sins today are punishable by death.
The reason why God considers these as sins are quite reasonable actually. Pigs are known to carry diseases (tapeworm variant in pigs is the scariest one compared to tapeworms found in bovine). mixing animal and plant fiber is known to make poor material for clothing. the stronger fiber will tear away the weaker fiber. and this practice of mixing fibers is known to lower the cost of production in expense of quality. Also, the mixed fiber represents the mixing between believer and non believer, through marriage for example. God wants to show one concept in salvation where it's considered a sin to mix between the believer and unbeliever.
a lot of sins were punishable by death in the old testament, but not anymore since Jesus has died for our sins. but that doesn't mean they're not sins anymore. they're still considered sins, but you don't need to be put to death anymore. they will make you die quicker though, like eating porks will increase your cholesterol and risk of infected by tapeworms, etc.
all the meat that's considered clean by God have been proven safer to eat for humans. as for those unclean meats, medicine has also proven that they're quite harmful to humans. you don't drop dead immediately after eating unclean meats, you just die a little quicker. that's all.
and I don't quite understand about the first sentence about "giving responsibility to God". what do you mean by this?
If Jesus hasn't died for us in the cross 2000+ years ago, yes, all those things you mentioned about touching pigs or mixed garments are sins and the punishment written for each of those sins will still apply now. I haven't had the time to read to verify whether all the things you mentioned were punishable by death in old testament, but I'll just assume you've read and verified that they're punishable by death. if that's the case and Jesus hasn't died for us to pay for our sins, then yes, people committing those sins today are punishable by death.
The reason why God considers these as sins are quite reasonable actually. Pigs are known to carry diseases (tapeworm variant in pigs is the scariest one compared to tapeworms found in bovine). mixing animal and plant fiber is known to make poor material for clothing. the stronger fiber will tear away the weaker fiber. and this practice of mixing fibers is known to lower the cost of production in expense of quality. Also, the mixed fiber represents the mixing between believer and non believer, through marriage for example. God wants to show one concept in salvation where it's considered a sin to mix between the believer and unbeliever.
a lot of sins were punishable by death in the old testament, but not anymore since Jesus has died for our sins. but that doesn't mean they're not sins anymore. they're still considered sins, but you don't need to be put to death anymore. they will make you die quicker though, like eating porks will increase your cholesterol and risk of infected by tapeworms, etc.
all the meat that's considered clean by God have been proven safer to eat for humans. as for those unclean meats, medicine has also proven that they're quite harmful to humans. you don't drop dead immediately after eating unclean meats, you just die a little quicker. that's all.
and I don't quite understand about the first sentence about "giving responsibility to God". what do you mean by this?
Post #37
So eating pork is still a sin, though not punishable by death....preacher wrote: a lot of sins were punishable by death in the old testament, but not anymore since Jesus has died for our sins. but that doesn't mean they're not sins anymore. they're still considered sins, but you don't need to be put to death anymore.
Do you eat pork since it's a sin?
And since jesus supposedly died for these sins, which by your own admission removes the "punishment by death" judgement, why do we still die (id dying is said to be punishment for sinning in the garden)?
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The Ex-Mormon
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Post #38
@ Preacher,
The "Redeemer" Christ is only one of many Middle Eastern legends. Such "persons" it gaves many in the Orient; the same was ascribed:
Born by a Virgin (actually should it be called "young woman")
Did miracles
Had disciples (seven or twelve)
One died a violent death; to give his testimonial through this.
This does not only apply to Jesus. but also on Horus (Egyptian God), Mytra and many other.
And in addition: What do religions which are anti-women, anti-Semitic and homophobic concern to me?
The "Redeemer" Christ is only one of many Middle Eastern legends. Such "persons" it gaves many in the Orient; the same was ascribed:
Born by a Virgin (actually should it be called "young woman")
Did miracles
Had disciples (seven or twelve)
One died a violent death; to give his testimonial through this.
This does not only apply to Jesus. but also on Horus (Egyptian God), Mytra and many other.
And in addition: What do religions which are anti-women, anti-Semitic and homophobic concern to me?
Post #39
@connermt:
no, I don't eat pork anymore after I heard the case of these tapeworms (before converting to christian). as for the so-called "removal of death punishment", it just simply meant God won't strike you dead the moment you did those sins anymore. it doesn't mean that the consequences of ancestral sins just disappear. however, if you managed to walk with God like Enoch or Elijah did, then perhaps you'll experience rapture where you're lifted up to heaven alive --> meaning you won't experience death.
@Ex-Mormon:
I assume you're talking horus in egyptian mythology? I think ten plagues inflicted upon egyptians by God effectively showed which God is more powerful. Each plague was a direct insult to egyptian gods who are claimed as guardians of each of the plague's target. also, Jesus' birth and death on the cross has been prophesied by so many prophets over thousands of years. was horus also like that? aside from that, why should we care about a bunch of defeated gods?
one of them being Zechariah 11:12 where it's prophesied that Jesus would be sold for 30 pieces of silver coins. the exact number is quite astonishing. did horus have something like that? need me remind you that it's only one of too many prophesies in the old testament regarding the coming of Jesus.
anti-women, anti-semmitic and homophobic? are you serious? christianity is not like that. Jesus condemns homosexuality. that means you have till your physical body dies. if by then, you're still a homosexual, God will throw you to hell. as for anti-woman and anti-semmitic, that doesn't make sense. Jesus was born Jewish. Bible specifically commanded gentiles to help Israel nation. God Himself swore an oath that Israel is the apple of His eye and will not let Israel to be annihilated. and what baffles me most is anti-woman. Jesus' first disciples besides the apostle was the whore Mary Magdalene. in the old testament, you can see woman of prominent position like Judge Deborah. God made both man and woman according to His image (initially). God could've made Eve from dust just like He did Adam, but He intentionally took Adam's rib to create woman so that each completes each other.
even in old testament, if a man raped a woman pledged to be married, he mus tbe stoned to death. do you know how slow and painful it is to die by stoning? I don't think today's courts of law would sentence every single rapists to death nor have the stomach for it. death penalty is reserved only for those who rape and kill. but God put all rapists to death, even when they didn't kill the woman they raped.
whether you want to believe in the bible or not is entirely up to you. I'm here only to explain bible's punishment for homosexuals.
no, I don't eat pork anymore after I heard the case of these tapeworms (before converting to christian). as for the so-called "removal of death punishment", it just simply meant God won't strike you dead the moment you did those sins anymore. it doesn't mean that the consequences of ancestral sins just disappear. however, if you managed to walk with God like Enoch or Elijah did, then perhaps you'll experience rapture where you're lifted up to heaven alive --> meaning you won't experience death.
@Ex-Mormon:
I assume you're talking horus in egyptian mythology? I think ten plagues inflicted upon egyptians by God effectively showed which God is more powerful. Each plague was a direct insult to egyptian gods who are claimed as guardians of each of the plague's target. also, Jesus' birth and death on the cross has been prophesied by so many prophets over thousands of years. was horus also like that? aside from that, why should we care about a bunch of defeated gods?
one of them being Zechariah 11:12 where it's prophesied that Jesus would be sold for 30 pieces of silver coins. the exact number is quite astonishing. did horus have something like that? need me remind you that it's only one of too many prophesies in the old testament regarding the coming of Jesus.
anti-women, anti-semmitic and homophobic? are you serious? christianity is not like that. Jesus condemns homosexuality. that means you have till your physical body dies. if by then, you're still a homosexual, God will throw you to hell. as for anti-woman and anti-semmitic, that doesn't make sense. Jesus was born Jewish. Bible specifically commanded gentiles to help Israel nation. God Himself swore an oath that Israel is the apple of His eye and will not let Israel to be annihilated. and what baffles me most is anti-woman. Jesus' first disciples besides the apostle was the whore Mary Magdalene. in the old testament, you can see woman of prominent position like Judge Deborah. God made both man and woman according to His image (initially). God could've made Eve from dust just like He did Adam, but He intentionally took Adam's rib to create woman so that each completes each other.
even in old testament, if a man raped a woman pledged to be married, he mus tbe stoned to death. do you know how slow and painful it is to die by stoning? I don't think today's courts of law would sentence every single rapists to death nor have the stomach for it. death penalty is reserved only for those who rape and kill. but God put all rapists to death, even when they didn't kill the woman they raped.
whether you want to believe in the bible or not is entirely up to you. I'm here only to explain bible's punishment for homosexuals.
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The Ex-Mormon
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Post #40
@preacher,
Your problem seems to me to be; that you read the Bible as a documentary report. Facts are some into this; in turn fairytales and legends are other things.At the moment I just read a book from Dawkins. And became conscious for me through this; that Christians believe in an old book; that other sources were not confirming. Where is there e.g. another source which confirms Jesus' miracles? Where another source than the Bible which confirms Mose's "miracles". There is no other source than the Bible!
Christians must believe unproved assertions. They donate money, time and heart blood into a thing which is a chimera. I call something like that stupid!
Your problem seems to me to be; that you read the Bible as a documentary report. Facts are some into this; in turn fairytales and legends are other things.At the moment I just read a book from Dawkins. And became conscious for me through this; that Christians believe in an old book; that other sources were not confirming. Where is there e.g. another source which confirms Jesus' miracles? Where another source than the Bible which confirms Mose's "miracles". There is no other source than the Bible!
Christians must believe unproved assertions. They donate money, time and heart blood into a thing which is a chimera. I call something like that stupid!
