I tried "being a Christian" and having faith, now

[Muddy Muffins]

I apologize if it seems tangential, but I'm starting with a bit of a story.

I'm still young, and until Christmas of 2011, I had always I had always accepted Christianity like my parents told me to. I never questioned it because my parents were, for some reason, hesitant to teach me about it, even when I asked. So all I thought was that God was perfect. Seeing as I didn't know what "perfect" was to Christians, I made up my own perfect, and made God that. Or rather, I assume that because whenever I prayed for advice or guidance, he always seemed to tell me exactly what I wanted to hear, which never worked out well in practice. I'm not convinced I was ever talking to anyone, as much as I'd like to believe I was.

Later, on that Christmas, I was forced to go to church(something we rarely did). I was incredibly annoyed, because we went so late at night. I then realized that it probably isn't a good thing to be annoyed to worship someone you're supposed to love that much. So of course I half-heartedly consulted with him like I normally do. I still felt like I didn't want to go. I always assumed what my gut said to do was what God was telling me to do. So anyway, at the request of my parents, I go. Skipping over the details for brevity, the people at the church and my parents said some things I really disagreed with. No matter how much I consulted with God, I really couldn't come to terms with these things. It's that night I really thought about it. Was I really talking to anyone? How had I gotten so much bad guidance from an omniscient being? How could an omniscient being say things I disagreed with so much, and not even personally guide me to believe these things?

Over the course of that night, I realized I didn't believe in God. I could stop talking him altogether, and couldn't care less. I felt no love for whatever I was talking to. I felt no respect. Nothing. I really believed I did speak with him, but as I said, the inconsistencies with my communication with him and christian teachings and the poor guidance suggest otherwise. I could not for the life of me connect with this supposed God that the bible spoke of.

Story was longer than I meant it to be, but getting to the point... I currently define myself as an atheist, although if I may further explain my stance; I do not believe in any God a religion describes. The existence of a God in general isn't inconceivable to me, I simply have no reason to believe it yet. So for now, I'll call myself an atheist. I've tried as hard as I could to connect to this God, and simply couldn't without fabricating my own God that didn't violate my morals. If faith is the path to God, where did I go wrong? I'd like to be as open-minded as possible about this.

[Divine Insight]

I have said and believed much the same thing, but I'm not sure we're right. I am going to suggest there is less difference between atheists and theists than either realize. I think I'll start a new subtopic about this. I've thought about this for a while, and tho' I'm going to give it a provocative title, I am uncomfortable with saying "Religious people have no moral values of their own at all."

I agree that saying "Religious people have no moral values of their own at all.", is incorrect.

The point that I was really trying to make is that if they actually have moral values of their own then they really don't need their religion.

What I should have said to be more correct is this, "Religious people who claim that they need religion and God to have moral values have no moral values of their own at all."

But that should be a self-evident tautology. If they claim that they need their religion and God to have moral values, then clearly without the religion and God they would have none. Therefore they have no moral values of their own by their very own demand that they would have no moral values if it wasn't for their God and religion.

[TheTruth101]

If you dont belive in a higher supreme power that created you, then you are saying you are God yourself, that you were created on your own, and its funny that we saw a prime example by your 1 statement that prophecy being filled.
us being the Sons of God,and you claiming your moral values are higher than ours, indeed, Atheists mentality were prophecised by Christ in the revelations.

Most of your absurdities stem from your own erroneous act of jumping to totally false conclusions.

Where have I ever said that my moral values are any higher than anyone else?

Also, who are you referring to when you refer to "ours". Do you have a multiple personality disorder?

The things you claim were prophesied by Jesus wouldn't apply to me anyway. To begin with I'm not an atheist despite your erroneous lies.

I don't claim to be above God anymore than Jesus did. Jesus agrees with me that we and the father are one, and according to the Gospels he went out of his way to make that point. So you are in denial of what Jesus is even rumored to have claimed in the Gospels anyway.

Besides why are you so hell-bent on using Jesus as a battering ram for hatred?

I have never put you down. You are becoming egotistically defensive and offensive entirely on behalf of Jesus. You need to stop that and allow Jesus to stand on his own two feet if you believe that he can.

Do you agree with the moral values proposed by Jesus?

If you do, then you are no different from me. You are the one who has judged the moral values taught by Jesus to be in harmony with your own moral values.

On the other hand, if you disagree with the moral values of Jesus, then why would you even bother to worship him as a demigod?

You're in the same boat with me whether you like it or not. You necessarily have to have your own ideas of what is moral. And you judge Jesus' morality based upon that. That necessarily has to be the case. In fact, the only way that you could possibly claim that it's not the case is to claim that you have no clue what is moral or what isn't moral and you're merely accepting the Christian's claims (i.e. the authors of the New Testament) that Jesus had good moral values.

There's no getting around it. You can't claim to have gotten your moral values from a God, because if you did, then you don't have any sense of morality of your own.

@ Divine Insight
Sorry I cut in. I just had to on this. Forgive me.

Athesists learn of morals from the mass media or the structured rules of the society at some point. All laws of the given society stems from philosophy, and philopsophy is in nature with God, not of another "one" being. If that were the case, dictatorship in North Korea would be spread amongst all world to be the right way into ruling or giving morals. And as all know, North Korea is frowned upon by the outer world for their failed morality.

I would say your right that atheists learn morals from society, but I would add that theists do too. Our morals are no different from each other. The difference is that one of these groups claims supremacy for what they learned in society as if they are more righteous and they learned from god. They don't acknowledge the societal influence on their own morals.

I disagree that we necessarily learn our moral values from society. I'm quite sure that this is true of many people, because many people are indeed blind followers. They either blindly follow what they see as authority figures, or they blindly follow what they see as the masses. In other words they choose to follow the majority.

However, everyone isn't dust in the wind like that. There are many examples of individuals who have a mind of their own. They have rejected the idea of following what the masses do simply because the masses are doing it. And they have also questioned the moral claims of authority.

I'm certainly one of these people. I have never followed the masses. And I question all authority. In fact, as a citizen of the USA I claim that I am an Earthling first, and a citizen of the USA second. In other words, my moral values are aimed to what is good for the planet and humanity first, and only then do I consider what might be good for the USA or its citizens.

So my moral values have never come from a "Follow the Leader" approach to live. Instead, I evaluate life for myself and draw my own conclusions of what I consider to be the higher moral values.

Therefore my moral values come entirely "From Me", they do not come from government, society, or religion.

I will confess that I had a great role model for very high moral values in my mother. But again, just as with the moral values of Jesus, that's my assessment. Therefore I'm simply giving my mother and Jesus a "Thumbs Up" of approval. Moreso to my mother than to Jesus as IMHO, my mother held higher moral values that the Gospels attribute to Jesus, both through his teachings as well as through his actions.

So my moral values come "From Me". They do not come from society, (in fact I blatantly disagree with many of the moral values held by the society in which I live). They do not come from government (although I applaud Obama as doing the best he can considering the circumstances). And they certainly don't come from any God, (I passionately disagree with the immoral values attributed to the God of Abraham in the OT). I also hold that if Jesus truly was a demigod sent specifically by the God of Abraham to be beaten and nailed to a pole to pay for the sins of man, then this God is an example of extremely pathetic and immoral values.

So I don't get my moral values from anyone by myself. How could I? I can't even point to a single solitary other source of morality that I would agree with in entirety. So I can't have gotten my moral values from any such source.

I agree with much of the moral values that had been attributed to Jesus, but if Jesus truly was a demigod who was speaking on behalf of the God of Abraham, then he would lose all moral value instantly. The very idea of a God who would purposefully set out to have an innocent man beaten and nailed to a pole as a public example of his love would totally annihilate any and all moral values that might have been associated with Jesus. So the Christian picture loses any and all sense of morality.

My morality comes from me. Period.

You said here

"Atheists who have high moral values are clearly the most God-like creatures in the universe. "

Nevermind, I have been debating mostly with Athesist, I thought you yourrself concluded to being an Atheist. It's different when one speaks for a set of their own beliefs, meaning preaching their own word vs. giving encouragement to another set of another ones belifs. In either case, you shouldnt inspire Atheists
to live their life beliving that way, it is not in accordance to Gods laws in any spiritual establishment.

Anyway, sorry about that. I forgot you were an Agnostic.

Will post later.

[Danmark]

I have said and believed much the same thing, but I'm not sure we're right. I am going to suggest there is less difference between atheists and theists than either realize. I think I'll start a new subtopic about this. I've thought about this for a while, and tho' I'm going to give it a provocative title, I am uncomfortable with saying "Religious people have no moral values of their own at all."

I agree that saying "Religious people have no moral values of their own at all.", is incorrect.

The point that I was really trying to make is that if they actually have moral values of their own then they really don't need their religion.

What I should have said to be more correct is this, "Religious people who claim that they need religion and God to have moral values have no moral values of their own at all."

But that should be a self-evident tautology. If they claim that they need their religion and God to have moral values, then clearly without the religion and God they would have none. Therefore they have no moral values of their own by their very own demand that they would have no moral values if it wasn't for their God and religion.

I am stealing this and posting it on the new subtopic:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 483#522483

[TheTruth101]

You mention that I use Christ to lash out a form of hatred. The truth of the matter is, I do use Christ to lash out my form of the truth. Hatred is a meaning of offending others, and as Christ have called another one a dog for not abiding by him, I am simply, in all respects, just following his footsteps.

Now, the whole post about you claming you have a higher being that has enlighetend your life, but see it as you going against supreme authority is plain ignorant to say the least.

Perhaps you are imaging a braveheart figure going against authority and preaching freedom, however, what you fail to see is, the movie was made sorrounding his character, thus portraying him to be a some sort of heroic figure. The truth of it is, in reality, he's just a case of Bin Laden. In all, he's related with all the criminals that are behind bars going against societys laws. It's a fantasy divine insight, not reality.

Perhaps you do not have much work experience, the ones that obey the rules of the company, and adheres to the works of their boss stay within the company the longest, and eventually be made C.E.O.s of today. The others who work under your mentality gets replaced within a month in most cases.It's called being adaptive, in all, referenced as professionalism in the world of bussiness morals and laws.


As far as all your notions saying you dictate your own morals, it is a fantasy.You learn of your morals from the society. A baby dosent dosent know what is murder or what is a lie.

[Divine Insight]

You said here

"Atheists who have high moral values are clearly the most God-like creatures in the universe. "

Nevermind, I have been debating mostly with Athesist, I thought you yourrself concluded to being an Atheist. It's different when one speaks for a set of their own beliefs, meaning preaching their own word vs. giving encouragement to another set of another ones belifs. In either case, you shouldnt inspire Atheists
to live their life beliving that way, it is not in accordance to Gods laws in any spiritual establishment.

God's Laws? Can you point to any consistent unambiguous non-self-contradicting source of laws that anyone should believe came from some "God"?

I certainly hope you know better than to point to any of the Abrahamic religious doctrines as an example of this since disagreement even among the most devout believers of those religions has been well-established throughout history.

So where are we supposed to find an trustworthy "Laws of God" pray tell?

Besides, I'm not inspiring anyone to become an atheist. I was merely speaking of "Highly Moral" atheists. That would not include all atheists anyway.

Anyway, sorry about that. I forgot you were an Agnostic.

Will post later.

All humans are agnostic when it comes to knowing the true nature of reality, unless they have deluded themselves into believing that they are some sort of special prophet or demigod.

So anyone who doesn't fess up to being agnostic (i.e. without knowledge of the true nature of reality) is only fooling themselves. They certainly aren't fooling me.

Everyone likes to claim that they are seeking "TheTruth" (or worse yet they claim to know it), yet they are seldom capable of even being truthful with their very own self.

The first step toward truth is to acknowledge that the truth is you are necessarily agnostic via your very condition of being human.

[TheTruth101]

You said here

"Atheists who have high moral values are clearly the most God-like creatures in the universe. "

Nevermind, I have been debating mostly with Athesist, I thought you yourrself concluded to being an Atheist. It's different when one speaks for a set of their own beliefs, meaning preaching their own word vs. giving encouragement to another set of another ones belifs. In either case, you shouldnt inspire Atheists
to live their life beliving that way, it is not in accordance to Gods laws in any spiritual establishment.

God's Laws? Can you point to any consistent unambiguous non-self-contradicting source of laws that anyone should believe came from some "God"?

I certainly hope you know better than to point to any of the Abrahamic religious doctrines as an example of this since disagreement even among the most devout believers of those religions has been well-established throughout history.

So where are we supposed to find an trustworthy "Laws of God" pray tell?

Besides, I'm not inspiring anyone to become an atheist. I was merely speaking of "Highly Moral" atheists. That would not include all atheists anyway.

Anyway, sorry about that. I forgot you were an Agnostic.

Will post later.

All humans are agnostic when it comes to knowing the true nature of reality, unless they have deluded themselves into believing that they are some sort of special prophet or demigod.

So anyone who doesn't fess up to being agnostic (i.e. without knowledge of the true nature of reality) is only fooling themselves. They certainly aren't fooling me.

Everyone likes to claim that they are seeking "TheTruth" (or worse yet they claim to know it), yet they are seldom capable of even being truthful with their very own self.

The first step toward truth is to acknowledge that the truth is you are necessarily agnostic via your very condition of being human.

The laws of God are stated clearly within the 10 commandments. Within Judaism, the 613 commandments.

Again, one has to adhere to the laws of a higher being that is made different and higher to the rest, or, one has to adhere to the laws of another human being, that is made as same importance as you are. This is the only case that can be said, simply because,

You were not the beggining.


As far as one knowing nature and having to conclude that one has to be utterly ignorant to not know a higher deity exist stands true within my vocab as well.

The deeper and the bigger truth is, that you are not thinking of "levels" of heavens one will be placed. It is a deeper truth one should see after seeking the surface of reality, meaning agnotiscism.

[Danmark]

You mention that I use Christ to lash out a form of hatred. The truth of the matter is, I do use Christ to lash out my form of the truth. Hatred is a meaning of offending others, and as Christ have called another one a dog for not abiding by him, I am simply, in all respects, just following his footsteps.

Truth, you sadden me to talk like this. Some of it may be due to your clumsiness of speech, but it seems like you are using Christ as a justification to lash out angrily, even hating. This is unfortunate and does not serve you well.

When Jesus referred to the woman who wanted her daughter to be healed as a 'dog' he was testing her, perhaps teasing her in a friendly way. When she, a gentile, asked for His help, he told her came to serve His people, not the dogs [gentiles]. She caught his humor and returned it, saying 'even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the master's table.' Jesus must have laughed at how she played along with his joke, that her faith in Him was triumphed over her doubts and his feigned contempt. He rewarded her faith and healed the girl.

Another way of putting it Truth-boy, is as soon as you are able to heal the lame and help the poor, and are ready to die for those that persecute you, then perhaps you have the right to lash out with anger once in a while.

[Divine Insight]

Now, the whole post about you claming you have a higher being that has enlighetend your life, but see it as you going against supreme authority is plain ignorant to say the least.

I have never claimed in my life to have been enlightened by a higher being.

I have had visions and dreams of being enlightened by a higher being, however, I always point out that I have no way of verifying myself whether those dreams actually come from a higher being, or from my own subconscious imagination.

So I'm as honest about it as a person can be.

Perhaps you are imaging a braveheart figure going against authority and preaching freedom, however, what you fail to see is, the movie was made sorrounding his character, thus portraying him to be a some sort of heroic figure. The truth of it is, in reality, he's just a case of Bin Laden. In all, he's related with all the criminals that are behind bars going against societys laws. It's a fantasy divine insight, not reality.

I've never watched Braveheart. As far as Bin Laden goes, religious people often go against the laws of society in the name of their Gods. There's nothing new there.

Perhaps you do not have much work experience, the ones that obey the rules of the company, and adheres to the works of their boss stay within the company the longest, and eventually be made C.E.O.s of today.

That's baloney. In most companies if you want to get to a very high position of power you usually need to kiss someone's behind, often in a way that is contrary to your own moral values.

The others who work under your mentality gets replaced within a month in most cases.It's called being adaptive, in all, referenced as professionalism in the world of bussiness morals and laws.

I never had the goal of greed. I worked mainly in research and development. I was in charge of several laboratories. My focus was on the work to be done, not to become the next CEO of the company. I left every job I ever had via my own choice save for one time when the company simply failed and had a major layoff beyond their control.

So your imagination concerning me has no connection with reality.

As far as all your notions saying you dictate your own morals, it is a fantasy.You learn of your morals from the society. A baby dosent dosent know what is murder or what is a lie.

You're hiding behind babies now. A baby can't even think for itself. There's no point in even discussing moral values until the child is at least 4 year of age or older. Only then do they begin to form moral values. In fact, it's been shown that children younger than this can't even comprehend the concept of morality.

And some don't truly comprehend it full until they are as old as 6.

At that young age they are no doubt influenced by what their parents and authority figures tell them what is "right or wrong".

But how long does that last?

My father was very prejudiced against black people. But I didn't pick that immoral attitude up from him. On the contrary, I would question what his problem was! What did he have against black people? That was the question that ran through my mind. My father died by the time I was 9. So I was already forming my own moral values independent of my parent's moral values.

The fact that my moral values are indeed my own is crystal clear to me. I also rejected Christianity and renounce the immoral things that are taught in the Old Testament, yet as a child I was brought up to believe that all those things represent the "Word of God" and the highest moral values possible.

Clearly, I came to my own conclusions about what I consider to be moral and immoral. I certainly didn't get my moral values from my dad, nor did I get it from our family religion. And I certainly didn't get it from society around me either.

So it had to be my own choices. There's simply no other source left from which I could have chosen my moral values.

So you're wrong.

Later in life I actually has to seek out other religions to see if any of them agreed with my moral values. Fortunately I was able to find a few. But again, I was seeking those religions out to match my moral values. I wasn't seeking to gain moral values from some external religions.

I don't need to seek morals from external sources. I'm quite pleased with my own moral values thank you very much.

[TheTruth101]

You mention that I use Christ to lash out a form of hatred. The truth of the matter is, I do use Christ to lash out my form of the truth. Hatred is a meaning of offending others, and as Christ have called another one a dog for not abiding by him, I am simply, in all respects, just following his footsteps.

Truth, you sadden me to talk like this. Some of it may be due to your clumsiness of speech, but it seems like you are using Christ as a justification to lash out angrily, even hating. This is unfortunate and does not serve you well.

When Jesus referred to the woman who wanted her daughter to be healed as a 'dog' he was testing her, perhaps teasing her in a friendly way. When she, a gentile, asked for His help, he told her came to serve His people, not the dogs [gentiles]. She caught his humor and returned it, saying 'even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the master's table.' Jesus must have laughed at how she played along with his joke, that her faith in Him was triumphed over her doubts and his feigned contempt. He rewarded her faith and healed the girl.

Another way of putting it Truth-boy, is as soon as you are able to heal the lame and help the poor, and are ready to die for those that persecute you, then perhaps you have the right to lash out with anger once in a while.

Well, the truth of it is, I was reffering to the Pharicess as dogs. The bigger truth of it is, he labeled them to be tortured in hell for all eternity. As evident by Jesus marking the beast 666. Conclude it as people of the Pharicess or Judaism that has 6 points on their religious symbol. And indeed, they did mock him and called him the biggest blasphmer, and even went as far as calling him "demon possesed" at one point. In the end, crucified him first hand.

As evident by Jesus cursing the Jews, I am simply following his footsteps.

I dont hate anyone, however, I do hate the mentality that Atheists posses, because in the end, they are takers and they are prideful. Exceptions to the good samaritans.

Mentality can change, so in this respect, my hate towards the mentality of Atheists should change when one admits to understanding and admitting of God in nature.

I do use Christ.

I use him for all sorts of thing. I use him to give to the needy, or give knowledge to the ones that do not know of God. In midst, emotions do take place, simply because, we are interacting, and it is inevitable one feels emotional depths of sadness supported by you, or hatred supported by Nickman, or love supported by Christ when one is connecting in any form.

Within this respect, I do and will be angry and will hate the atheists that are locke d in hell for all eternity. As heavens will be done in earth, and as evident by the scriptures of Angels themselves rebuking Satan, or unfaithful belivers, I am indeed with the Saints, not of the ones that are of flesh and self knowledge.

[Nickman]

@ DI

I think you took me the wrong way. Society is all encompassing. It involves much more than aquaintance. It envolves experience, family and reality. We learn from these how to live our lives in accordance with the people around us. If a person were to be born and survive by his/her self, then they would develop their own morals. Add one more person to the mix, and morals would be changed, again add another and another. Each person and each situation added, creates a different moral responsibility. Each time we meet a new person, our morality is affected. When we meet someone for the first time, we have no idea what is ok with them and if we desire to befriend them we amend our ways to appeal to them and be friends. We don't change completely, but we open up a little bit.