Miracles or Supernatural feats?

[Angel]

In a thread entitled, Must watch, evidence of Jesus Miracles captured. (somewhat), a forum member posted a video that showed a man being able to generate enough heat from his hand to make a newspaper catch on fire. Refer to 3:50 to 4:20 into the video. The man was a practitioner of QiGong (the same as Tai Chi, perhaps). I also posted information from a study on meditation and infrared video of QiGong practitioners in the act. These studies may explain how these QiGong experts are able to generate a remarkable amount of body heat and to do so quickly. I posted that here. If these feats are genuine, I wonder what the implications would be.

Debate Questions:
So as the forum member claimed, do the feats in the video I referred to show a miracle or something supernatural taking place? And does that help validate Jesus' miracles?

Some skeptics on this forum dismissed the video as a complete hoax and mentioned that it was debunked. Please provide a source that demonstrates the falsehood of the body being able to generate body heat to the point shown in the videos/study through QiGong or intense meditation. Also factor in the meditation study and infrared video I linked to earlier in this post. Thanks.

[SailingCyclops]

I fully explained that there is only SCIENTIFIC evidence that meditation/mental focus can cause a beyond average rise body heat ranging from 8 to 17 degrees Celcius rise.

This is OK, and apart from finding equally compelling scientific evidence to refute it, it should stand. It is "scientific evidence", it comports with what we have observed, and it does not violate any known laws or principles I am aware of. No problem so far.

When you admit:

There is not any scientific but rather UNSCIENTIFIC evidence in the form of video, infrared imaging, and one controlled testing (I consider that last one close to scientific although not replicated yet) that shows that someone can generate a body temperature to go waaaay above average (200 degrees F and up) and be able to withstand it without damage.

These facts:

UNSCIENTIFIC evidence which is also incomplete because it has not been replicated, and which also violates both common sense and what we know about human biology by making the claim that someone can generate a body temperature to go waaaay above average (200 degrees F and up), the claim is extraordinary and unbelievable on it's face, and it is self-debunking because as you yourself state it is not scientific evidence. You are making scientific claims based on non scientific, incomplete, unverified pseudo-evidence. Such does not need debunking, it is profoundly nonsensical to begin with. You need to drop that particular claim until you can provide real, verifiable, scientific evidence.

[Star]

I keep trying to throw Angel a bone and checked out the "evidence" s/he posted in post 71.

The "Master" was using dentures to bite the hot metal. Watch the upper teeth move. Many people noticed it.

This is why skeptics usually don't carry the burden of proof. They shouldn't be inconvenienced by lazy fact-checking and delusions of others. What a waste of time.

[TheTruth101]

Well, if you consider that the finger is at a "brick" point by meditation then it wouldn't matter if it were
200 degree.

A "brick point"?

You make things up then offer them as an explanation as if nobody would question it.

Like, oh a "brick point" that explains everything! Except, what in the world is a "brick point?"

I suppose I'm to provide evidence there isn't such a thing now.

Please refer to post #73. It explains the evident and the reality factors of the "supernatural" through meditation.

[Angel]

I keep trying to throw Angel a bone and checked out the "evidence" s/he posted in post 71.

The "Master" was using dentures to bite the hot metal. Watch the upper teeth move. Many people noticed it.

This is why skeptics usually don't carry the burden of proof. They shouldn't be inconvenienced by lazy fact-checking and delusions of others. What a waste of time.

Let me just put in more simpler terms. If there is an unscientific level of evidence then I've met that burden. Now I want skeptics who have ALREADY claimed it to be DEBUNKED, false, tricks, stunts, to put more energy into getting EVIDENCE against my UNScientific evidence. And OF COURSE, in the meanwhile, I and other people will be looking for better or even scientific evidence to corroborate what I'm posting.

More specifically to your claims, I'm not sure what your point about dentures prove. Aren't dentures tissue that should also not be able to withstand extreme temperatures just like regular teeth? At most, your point may show that the man felt no pain in his teeth since dentures are not connected to the nerves and blood vessels in the mouth that enable humans to feel pain, heat, cold, in our real teeth. That does not take away from the damage part, since the doctor did not see any damages done to the dentures.

Lets not forget that the hands and tongue were used as well. I suppose you overlooked those OTHER tasks in order to give a misleading picture that there was only ONE task and that that ONE task represented the whole experiment and since that failed (although it didn't if you factor in my response) then the feat was a trick? Please learn to post FULL details before posting misleading conclusions like you've done before on this thread and REFUSED to retract it.

[Angel]

I fully explained that there is only SCIENTIFIC evidence that meditation/mental focus can cause a beyond average rise body heat ranging from 8 to 17 degrees Celcius rise.

This is OK, and apart from finding equally compelling scientific evidence to refute it, it should stand. It is "scientific evidence", it comports with what we have observed, and it does not violate any known laws or principles I am aware of. No problem so far.

I'm glad you're open to accepting that the mind can do such feats such as increase body heat. That's a good start just as long as you don't assume that the 8 to 17 degree body temperature increase is the highest or maximum limit that the mind can do.

When you admit:

There is not any scientific but rather UNSCIENTIFIC evidence in the form of video, infrared imaging, and one controlled testing (I consider that last one close to scientific although not replicated yet) that shows that someone can generate a body temperature to go waaaay above average (200 degrees F and up) and be able to withstand it without damage.

These facts:

UNSCIENTIFIC evidence which is also incomplete because it has not been replicated, and which also violates both common sense and what we know about human biology by making the claim that someone can generate a body temperature to go waaaay above average (200 degrees F and up), the claim is extraordinary and unbelievable on it's face, and it is self-debunking because as you yourself state it is not scientific evidence. You are making scientific claims based on non scientific, incomplete, unverified pseudo-evidence. Such does not need debunking, it is profoundly nonsensical to begin with. You need to drop that particular claim until you can provide real, verifiable, scientific evidence.

Tell your skeptic friends to start looking into this QiGong master and all of the other Qigong feats, like the ones showing no damage after being hit with a bat and stabbed with a spear. In fact, I'll go as far as saying there are scientific tests (w/ controls and measurements), done by more than one professional, but they just aren't published in peer-reviewed journals and perhaps not yet.

[SailingCyclops]

I'm glad you're open to accepting that the mind can do such feats such as increase body heat. That's a good start just as long as you don't assume that the 8 to 17 degree body temperature increase is the highest or maximum limit that the mind can do.

I don't assume anything. That a small temperature rise due to mental activity is possible is not unreasonable. It's not extraordinary. It would be an extraordinary leap to extrapolate a temperature increase of over 200 degrees without a substantial amount of scientific evidence. A few degree differential does not mean a 100 degree possibility.

Tell your skeptic friends to start looking into this QiGong master and all of the other Qigong feats ....

Why should I? I have no particular interest in this. It's your responsibility to find and provide evidence to support your claims. When and if you provide valid scientific evidence, we can talk. Until then it's a waste of time and energy.

[ytrewq]

Firstly Angel, an admission from me that I do not really expect you to offer a large reward to obtain first hand evidence of supernatural feats. My point here was that individuals and organizations have and do offer substantial rewards for any supernatural feat demonstrated under controlled conditions, and none has ever been found. It is also unfair of me to expect you to have access to peer reviewed journals, so you don't in practice have many options for 'researching' this topic except by surfing the net. Fair enough.

However, with that said, I think you should directly address the questions I asked in my posting #86, which you still appear not to understand.

YOU even dismissed the videos as being FALSE without first examining it yourself ...

Re the specific claim of a person rapidly heating their fingers to 200 DegC by 'mental focussing', such that a newspaper was ignited on touching their fingers, you are exactly correct.

I immediately dismissed the claim as an obvious hoax, for the reasons I have already given.

You have not been able to fault the reasons I gave for rejecting this claim, so that is the end of the matter. The claim remains impossible, an obvious hoax.

This approach of 'dismissing obviously impossible' claims is actually very common. We all do this at some level, and scientists are particularly adept at it.

Surely there must be some claims that even you would reject out-of-hand, such as the possibility that all the $100 notes in your wallet could spontaneously turn into $10 notes, or that you could return to your house (having left it that morning), and find that it was inexplicably gone, and replaced by a different house. Of course there are absurd propositions that you would reject out of hand.

This idea of rejecting a claim on theoretical grounds is worth pursuing further, as it appears to be an unfamiliar concept to you. In science, there are many fundamental 'Laws', and well understood properties of matter that are for practical purposes immutable. For example, at standard atmospheric pressure, water ALWAYS boils at 100 DegC. If some clown claims that on his stove water boils at 150 DegC, then do you really have to perform an experiment on his stove to disprove his claim?? Of course not, and it is through logic of that type that I am able to state with absolute certainty that it is impossible for human flesh or fingers to reach the ignition point of paper at 200 DegC, for human flesh is mainly water, so it is IMPOSSIBLE to heat human flesh to 200 DegC. Your fingers would literally be burnt to a crisp. Get it? To say it again, I don't even need to view the video to know with absolute certainty that it is impossible to heat human fingers to the 200 DegC required to ignite paper. I really can't make it any clearer.

I've already answered your question. To understand the difference between being impossible through natural means and being impossible in an absolute sense is a matter of philosophy. I fail to see how anyone can begin to accept evidence for a supernatural, which would by definition may involve things beyond physics/biology, if your standard is that it has to be in line with what's known with current physics and biology ](*,). Not only is your type of skepticism ILLOGICAL but it's also disingenous when you keep asking for extraordinary evidence for something that you'll never accept unless it's in line with the ordinary.

You keep asking how can human tissue survive temperatures beyond 200 degrees and I've shown you several videos of feats that aren't suppose to be possible by your reasoning.

Refer to Post #71. There I posted 5 pieces of evidence that are all hyperlinked. The 2nd link contains your answer showing a man who was able to touch (using hands, teeth, and tongue) temperatures beyond even that of volcanic lava and yet there were no damages. All done under supervision of a medical doctor, as well. The standard skeptic response I'll probably get is that the doctor is lying or is not really a doctor, it's all camara tricks, and of course I'll get these explanations without a shred of EVIDENCE to back them up which is what has happened for 99 posts and counting on this thread.

I have no need to post here again until I can get the forum owner, Otseng, to agree with me to take care of the problem of "knee jerk" skeptic dismissal. Unscientific evidence should NOT be dismissed as evidence just because it's unscientific. If any skeptic here wants to call something DEBUNKED, TRICKERY, STUNTS, FALSE, then EVIDENCE should also be required to show that the UNSCIENTIFIC evidence meets their claims/judgements.

I stand completely behind everything I have written, and none of it was 'knee jerk', either.

You have an annoying habit of not directly answering questions which makes meaningful debate with you difficult, so I have to do a bit of guesswork as to what your position really is.

Apparently you believe that literally anything is potentially possible, irespective of whether it contradicts the most fundamental of scientific knowledge, or everday common sense and experience. Apparently you believe that water could boil at 150 DegC. Apparently you believe that human flesh might not be damaged if the flesh itself reached 200 DegC. Angel, the problem with a philosophy of this type, is that there is then no limit to what you believe could be possible. Apparently you must also believe that $10 notes can spontaneously turn into $100 notes. But where does it end? Presumably you must also believe that you might come home one day after leaving your house in the morning, and find that your house has inexplicable dissapeared, and another taken it's place. Can you see the problem here? Where do you draw the line between what is and is not possible? Please inform us of which events mentioned in this paragraph you regard as possible, and which you regard as impossible. (PS, Please answer the question) If you think they are all possible, and it is your right to do so, then at least we all understand your position, and further debate is a waste of time.

Logical debate is simply not possible with a person who takes the view that absolutely anything is possible. As this is a debate forum, you should be banned from being here and wasting our time.

By the standards of any reasonable person, the claim that a person can heat their fingers to 200 DegC by 'mental focus', such that newspaper is ignited upon contact with the said heated fingers, has been thoroughly debunked by logical argument - please read my previous postings.

Even so, out of curiosity, as you apparently believe that human flesh is not damaged when the flesh itself reaches 200 DegC, how exactly do you suggest that an internet claim of that kind could be 'debunked'??

Clearly no amount of internet surfing is going to find suitable 'evidence' to satisfy you, as nothing you read on the internet can be assumed to be true.

Just what do you expect the Skeptics to do?? Preumably the only evidence that would satisfy you is to physically track this guy down, and arrange for him to perform his firelighting feat in front of both of us, under very carefully controlled conditions. I respectfully suggest that is an unreasonable request - what do YOU think? Even so, just so you know that I put my money where my mouth is, I invite you to track this undoubtedly trustworthy person down, and I'll fly you both the the physics research laboratories where I work, so the mentally-heated-hot-finger-firelighting feat can be performed in front of us both, under controlled conditions. If the feat is genuine, I'll pay all expenses, plus $10,000 for your trouble. If it turns out to be a hoax, you pay only expenses. You cannot possibly ask for fairer than that, Angel.

[Star]

Let me just put in more simpler terms. If there is an unscientific level of evidence then I've met that burden.

LOL that's simple terms? I call that nonsense. You haven't provided any good evidence, scientific or otherwise. It's hard for me to imagine a psychology student, who considers faked stunts on TV to be good evidence of supernatural mind control, is going to do well for his or herself.

Aren't dentures tissue that should also not be able to withstand extreme temperatures just like regular teeth? At most, your point may show that the man felt no pain in his teeth since dentures are not connected to the nerves and blood vessels in the mouth that enable humans to feel pain, heat, cold, in our real teeth. That does not take away from the damage part, since the doctor did not see any damages done to the dentures.

Dentures are not made of tissue! If they're made of ceramic there wouldn't be any damage. What's the point you ask? The point is he FAKED it, which makes him dishonest, and casts serious doubt on anything else he claims.

Truth says his fingers are made of brick and you say his dentures are made of tissue. Unbelievable.

Lets not forget that the hands and tongue were used as well. I suppose you overlooked those OTHER tasks in order to give a misleading picture that there was only ONE task and that that ONE task represented the whole experiment and since that failed (although it didn't if you factor in my response) then the feat was a trick? Please learn to post FULL details before posting misleading conclusions like you've done before on this thread and REFUSED to retract it.

The guy was caught faking it with artificial teeth. The stunt was his idea and his passed it off as if it was his real teeth. That casts serious doubt on the rest of his unlikely claims. How gullible does one have to be?

[Star]

I have no need to post here again until I can get the forum owner, Otseng, to agree with me to take care of the problem of "knee jerk" skeptic dismissal. Unscientific evidence should NOT be dismissed as evidence just because it's unscientific. If any skeptic here wants to call something DEBUNKED, TRICKERY, STUNTS, FALSE, then EVIDENCE should also be required to show that the UNSCIENTIFIC evidence meets their claims/judgements.

You went running to the board owner because there are skeptics who don't believe you in the Apologetics forum?

[TheTruth101]

I have no need to post here again until I can get the forum owner, Otseng, to agree with me to take care of the problem of "knee jerk" skeptic dismissal. Unscientific evidence should NOT be dismissed as evidence just because it's unscientific. If any skeptic here wants to call something DEBUNKED, TRICKERY, STUNTS, FALSE, then EVIDENCE should also be required to show that the UNSCIENTIFIC evidence meets their claims/judgements.

You went running to the board owner because there are skeptics who don't believe you in the Apologetics forum?

What's really the difference? Members report eachother here all the time.
Atheists to the Theists, and vice versa.