God?

[europious]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

[Tammy789]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

Gravitation is “proved� to exist by its effects. I think God can be proven in the same way. God is creator. If creation exists as the Bible "theory" predicts, it is evidence for creator. Creations exist as the Bible “theory� predicts so Creator also exists.

I know that this is not enough for atheist so we can move to the second phase.

According to the Bible, God is spirit. Can sprits exist? Some people say that team spirit exists. Is that true? What evidence we have for that spirit? Can similar evidence been found for God? I think so. But the problem is that you can say that it is something else than God.

Can there be any proof for God, if you don’t want to believe that he is? For example if God comes to you tomorrow and says, “Hi, I’m God, do as I say in the Bible�. You would go to your doctor and ask stronger medication, because you can’t hear or see God. Or maybe you would simply say, “no you are not� and turn your face and walk away. Or you would say, prove that. And God would act like trained dog and do every trick you command and then you would think you are God because God obeys your every command, and you would reject him. Or you just wouldn’t believe no matter what God would do to please you.

And eventually we come to conclusion, no use to prove you that God is. If you would be righteous, you would be it with the knowledge that is available. If you are not going to be righteous, it doesn’t really matter if you know that God exist.

Oh my goodness. I get tired of how some Christians think atheists don't want there to be a God. That is such an immature conclusion. Many atheists were previous earnest Christians that came to realize the inconsistencies of their faith with reality, and the many false and contradictory things taught by Christianity.

A good example would be the teaching that God is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing, yet the Bible says in numerous scriptures God created evil. If your God was so perfect, why couldn't he create a perfect world or how about create nothing at all if it ended up innocents would suffer greatly?

There has existed and does exist good people that have suffered so much they wish they had never been born. Where is their so-called free will?

[charles_hamm]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

Gravitation is “proved� to exist by its effects. I think God can be proven in the same way. God is creator. If creation exists as the Bible "theory" predicts, it is evidence for creator. Creations exist as the Bible “theory� predicts so Creator also exists.

I know that this is not enough for atheist so we can move to the second phase.

According to the Bible, God is spirit. Can sprits exist? Some people say that team spirit exists. Is that true? What evidence we have for that spirit? Can similar evidence been found for God? I think so. But the problem is that you can say that it is something else than God.

Can there be any proof for God, if you don’t want to believe that he is? For example if God comes to you tomorrow and says, “Hi, I’m God, do as I say in the Bible�. You would go to your doctor and ask stronger medication, because you can’t hear or see God. Or maybe you would simply say, “no you are not� and turn your face and walk away. Or you would say, prove that. And God would act like trained dog and do every trick you command and then you would think you are God because God obeys your every command, and you would reject him. Or you just wouldn’t believe no matter what God would do to please you.

And eventually we come to conclusion, no use to prove you that God is. If you would be righteous, you would be it with the knowledge that is available. If you are not going to be righteous, it doesn’t really matter if you know that God exist.

You have committed the same logical fallacy here that St. Thomas Aquinas gave us in his famous "proof" of the existence of God. You have started with the "in-your-face" unfounded personal assertion that "God is creator" and then tacked on some reasoning that in no way demonstrates the truth of your assertion or of the existence of any creator at all. You have simply given a name to your alleged "creator." I could say "My pet cat Snippy is creator" and then "prove" it with your reasoning.

I am sure you have heard this before, but who is the "creator" of your God? Oh, of course, God has always existed and needs no creator.

Whether he has or not I have and it is rather easily dismissed. The universe and all things in it are created things. The Big Bang theory shows this. That means both space and time are created things. All created things exist inside time, which is itself a created thing. A created thing must be created by something that exist prior to the creation. Since time is a created thing it would by the fact that it is created not exist prior to creation. A created thing by the definition of the word created must have a creator. That is to say a thing cannot come from a no-thing. This creator must exist prior to the thing which is created. This means the creator exist prior to the created and hence exist prior to time. In effect the creator, or non created if you like, exist the same from beginning to end. Since the non created is outside of time, from beginning to end is eternal.

So in short, yes you can say God has always existed and needs no creator.

[JohnPaul]

charles_hamm wrote:

Whether he has or not I have and it is rather easily dismissed. The universe and all things in it are created things. The Big Bang theory shows this. That means both space and time are created things. All created things exist inside time, which is itself a created thing. A created thing must be created by something that exist prior to the creation. Since time is a created thing it would by the fact that it is created not exist prior to creation. A created thing by the definition of the word created must have a creator. That is to say a thing cannot come from a no-thing. This creator must exist prior to the thing which is created. This means the creator exist prior to the created and hence exist prior to time. In effect the creator, or non created if you like, exist the same from beginning to end. Since the non created is outside of time, from beginning to end is eternal.

This subject has been beaten to death, but I will take a stab at it. It is only your use of the active verb "created" which implies the need for a creator, and that need is only grammatical, implicit only in your choice of that particular word, not physical. This grammatical need is removed if you simply substitute the words "came into existence" for created. Even if we grant that something may have existed "before" the universe, there is absolutely no requirement for that something to have been intelligent, personal, or purposeful, much less vain, vindictive and jealous, as your "God" is.

We are getting into deep waters when we talk about time and the Big Bang. Einstein's model of the universe was as an expanding four-dimensional "hypersphere" with a three-dimensional "surface." The expanding surface is our 3-D universe of space as we know it and the radial "fourth dimension" direction toward the center is called time. Our personal perception of time as a passage or flow of events is an illusion produced by our human perception of changes in our radial "world-lines" as our universe-surface moves over them, away from the origin, the center of the hypersphere. There is nothing in this model to deny that a similar dimension of time could not exist in a larger multi-dimensional reality of more than four dimensions.

The equations of Big Bang theory fail at the instant of origin, but it is sometimes postulated that an energetic "quantum soup" existed prior to that point. However, there is absolutely nothing in the equations of General Relativity or Quantum Physics to suggest that this "quantum soup" had intelligence, personality or purpose. You are certainly free to claim that it did, but that is pure unsupported speculation on your part, "grabbing at straws."

My whole point here is that there is nothing in this cosmological model that requires that a "God" exists, although there may be room for one "lurking in the gaps." You are welcome to go capture him and bring him back to show us.

[100%atheist]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

Gravitation is “proved� to exist by its effects. I think God can be proven in the same way. God is creator. If creation exists as the Bible "theory" predicts, it is evidence for creator. Creations exist as the Bible “theory� predicts so Creator also exists.

I know that this is not enough for atheist so we can move to the second phase.

According to the Bible, God is spirit. Can sprits exist? Some people say that team spirit exists. Is that true? What evidence we have for that spirit? Can similar evidence been found for God? I think so. But the problem is that you can say that it is something else than God.

Can there be any proof for God, if you don’t want to believe that he is? For example if God comes to you tomorrow and says, “Hi, I’m God, do as I say in the Bible�. You would go to your doctor and ask stronger medication, because you can’t hear or see God. Or maybe you would simply say, “no you are not� and turn your face and walk away. Or you would say, prove that. And God would act like trained dog and do every trick you command and then you would think you are God because God obeys your every command, and you would reject him. Or you just wouldn’t believe no matter what God would do to please you.

And eventually we come to conclusion, no use to prove you that God is. If you would be righteous, you would be it with the knowledge that is available. If you are not going to be righteous, it doesn’t really matter if you know that God exist.

Yes, God exists, and here is his twitter account to prove his existence:
https://twitter.com/god

[Tiberius47]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

I exist therefore God exists.

That's not a very convincing argument.

I know. The truth is not always easy to understand.

Things are not truth just because you claim they are truth.

[southern cross]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

Gravitation is “proved� to exist by its effects. I think God can be proven in the same way. God is creator. If creation exists as the Bible "theory" predicts, it is evidence for creator. Creations exist as the Bible “theory� predicts so Creator also exists.

I know that this is not enough for atheist so we can move to the second phase.

According to the Bible, God is spirit. Can sprits exist? Some people say that team spirit exists. Is that true? What evidence we have for that spirit? Can similar evidence been found for God? I think so. But the problem is that you can say that it is something else than God.

Can there be any proof for God, if you don’t want to believe that he is? For example if God comes to you tomorrow and says, “Hi, I’m God, do as I say in the Bible�. You would go to your doctor and ask stronger medication, because you can’t hear or see God. Or maybe you would simply say, “no you are not� and turn your face and walk away. Or you would say, prove that. And God would act like trained dog and do every trick you command and then you would think you are God because God obeys your every command, and you would reject him. Or you just wouldn’t believe no matter what God would do to please you.

And eventually we come to conclusion, no use to prove you that God is. If you would be righteous, you would be it with the knowledge that is available. If you are not going to be righteous, it doesn’t really matter if you know that God exist.

You have committed the same logical fallacy here that St. Thomas Aquinas gave us in his famous "proof" of the existence of God. You have started with the "in-your-face" unfounded personal assertion that "God is creator" and then tacked on some reasoning that in no way demonstrates the truth of your assertion or of the existence of any creator at all. You have simply given a name to your alleged "creator." I could say "My pet cat Snippy is creator" and then "prove" it with your reasoning.

I am sure you have heard this before, but who is the "creator" of your God? Oh, of course, God has always existed and needs no creator.

Whether he has or not I have and it is rather easily dismissed. The universe and all things in it are created things. The Big Bang theory shows this. That means both space and time are created things. All created things exist inside time, which is itself a created thing. A created thing must be created by something that exist prior to the creation. Since time is a created thing it would by the fact that it is created not exist prior to creation. A created thing by the definition of the word created must have a creator. That is to say a thing cannot come from a no-thing. This creator must exist prior to the thing which is created. This means the creator exist prior to the created and hence exist prior to time. In effect the creator, or non created if you like, exist the same from beginning to end. Since the non created is outside of time, from beginning to end is eternal.

So in short, yes you can say God has always existed and needs no creator.

Mr Paley, may I borrow your watch? Thanks!

[YahDough]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

I exist therefore God exists.

That's not a very convincing argument.

I know. The truth is not always easy to understand.

Things are not truth just because you claim they are truth.

Unless, of course, I am proclaiming the truth.

Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[charles_hamm]

charles_hamm wrote:

Whether he has or not I have and it is rather easily dismissed. The universe and all things in it are created things. The Big Bang theory shows this. That means both space and time are created things. All created things exist inside time, which is itself a created thing. A created thing must be created by something that exist prior to the creation. Since time is a created thing it would by the fact that it is created not exist prior to creation. A created thing by the definition of the word created must have a creator. That is to say a thing cannot come from a no-thing. This creator must exist prior to the thing which is created. This means the creator exist prior to the created and hence exist prior to time. In effect the creator, or non created if you like, exist the same from beginning to end. Since the non created is outside of time, from beginning to end is eternal.

This subject has been beaten to death, but I will take a stab at it. It is only your use of the active verb "created" which implies the need for a creator, and that need is only grammatical, implicit only in your choice of that particular word, not physical. This grammatical need is removed if you simply substitute the words "came into existence" for created. Even if we grant that something may have existed "before" the universe, there is absolutely no requirement for that something to have been intelligent, personal, or purposeful, much less vain, vindictive and jealous, as your "God" is.

We are getting into deep waters when we talk about time and the Big Bang. Einstein's model of the universe was as an expanding four-dimensional "hypersphere" with a three-dimensional "surface." The expanding surface is our 3-D universe of space as we know it and the radial "fourth dimension" direction toward the center is called time. Our personal perception of time as a passage or flow of events is an illusion produced by our human perception of changes in our radial "world-lines" as our universe-surface moves over them, away from the origin, the center of the hypersphere. There is nothing in this model to deny that a similar dimension of time could not exist in a larger multi-dimensional reality of more than four dimensions.

The equations of Big Bang theory fail at the instant of origin, but it is sometimes postulated that an energetic "quantum soup" existed prior to that point. However, there is absolutely nothing in the equations of General Relativity or Quantum Physics to suggest that this "quantum soup" had intelligence, personality or purpose. You are certainly free to claim that it did, but that is pure unsupported speculation on your part, "grabbing at straws."

My whole point here is that there is nothing in this cosmological model that requires that a "God" exists, although there may be room for one "lurking in the gaps." You are welcome to go capture him and bring him back to show us.

I will assume that since you changed topics you understand that God did not require a creator and have accepted my response to your question. So I too will change topics and address your "a creator is not required" response. Actually my use of the word "created" is as justified as your phrase "came into existence" and they will both arrive at the same conclusion. For an object to come into existence, it by definition must not have existed prior to coming into existence. This means there is a time, for lack of a better word, that only one two options exist. First option is a creator caused the thing to come into existence. The second option is the thing came into existence on it's own from nothing.

Your description of the breakdown of the Big Bang at the moment the universe started is accurate as is your assessment of Einstein's 3-D model of the universe up to your last statement. Einstein's 3-D model of the universe neither supported nor denied that a similar dimension of time could exist in a larger multi-dimensional reality of more than four dimensions because it did not use more than four dimensions.

The problem with this "postulation" is that it requires as much faith to believe in it as Christianity does to believe in God. It is part of quantum physics which can reasonably be considered metaphysics when it attempts to deal with the beginning of the universe. So one cannot with any amount of certainty assume based on this postulation that is a "quantum soup" and not God that existed prior to the beginning of the universe. So now we have two options again. First God created the universe. Second some "quantum soup" existed prior to the universe and the universe came into existence from the "quantum soup". The problem with option 2 is it fails to address how the universe came to be from the "quantum soup". It also cannot address whether the " quantum soup" always existed or if it is itself something that came into existence. Even option 2 cannot rule out the need for a creator. If anything it would only add an extra step to creation that would in no violate biblical teachings since this "quantum soup" could in fact be considered nothing with respect to our universe. There is also nothing in Relativity or Quantum Physics to prove that this "quantum soup" existed prior to the universe. Therefore it's only one theory and it's no more valid than saying God created the universe. As a matter of fact I would say it's less valid since it raises questions that can have one possibly correct answer that would still mean God created the universe.

I would invite you to bring us back a big ol' bowl of "quantum soup" so we can eat (this is just a play on words and I'm just joking around with you

[no evidence no belief]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

I exist therefore God exists.

I exist therefore Batman exists.

The entire perceived universe is actually part of a computer simulation created by Batman inside his Bat Cave, in an effort to catch the Joker. You are just a portion of a computer program created by Batman.

Therefore: You exist therefore Batman exists.
Please demonstrate how your argument is true but mine is not.

[YahDough]

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

I exist therefore God exists.

I exist therefore Batman exists.

The entire perceived universe is actually part of a computer simulation created by Batman inside his Bat Cave, in an effort to catch the Joker. You are just a portion of a computer program created by Batman.

Therefore: You exist therefore Batman exists.
Please demonstrate how your argument is true but mine is not.

No thanks.

Heb:2:3: How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;