Is hell eternal or not?

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:08 am

Just a couple of references;

2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .

This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....

Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

This verse is similair

Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"

Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?

joer · Post by **joer** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:10 am

Greetings Scorpia! Peace be with you!

I found this in a profane book, The Urantia Book. It's interesting.
It's says the second death is as if a person had never existed.

P.532 - §5 When material life has run its course, if no choice has been made for the ascendant life, or if these children of time definitely decide against the Havona adventure, death automatically terminates their probationary careers. There is no adjudication of such cases; there is no resurrection from such a second death. They simply become as though they had not been.

May the Holy Sprit Bless and Guide You on you path to GOD. In the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!

joer

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:26 am

Hi joer, welcome to the forum

P.532 - §5 When material life has run its course, if no choice has been made for the ascendant life, or if these children of time definitely decide against the Havona adventure, death automatically terminates their probationary careers. There is no adjudication of such cases; there is no resurrection from such a second death. They simply become as though they had not been.

This may very well be the case. I tend to take things from the Urantia book with a grain of salt however. I would prefer a further bit of proof if it is possible. Until then I shall presume that Hell is an eternal torture nevertheless, for by God's righteous judgement all of mankind sins and this if this is it's punishment then is it's punishment it deserves

joer · Post by **joer** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:20 am

I would prefer a further bit of proof if it is possible

Thank You for the welcome Scropia!

Well I can't give you proof in a Materialistic type of sense, because it's based on belief or Faith. But I can share my Faith and beliefs with you and the writings of the beliefs and faith of others like the Apostles and disciples of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

For example Jesus taught me that I should Forgive others and that this is the Will of God. So I can't really say that I'm am looking forward to anyone "Just Punishment" I can only pray to God to show them Mercy as only God can Judge them.

Even on the Cross when Jesus who in all righteousness because he is God could have judged his persecutors he instead taught poignant the lesson of forgiveness and Mercy when he said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

He also showed us we should defer judgement to GOD the Father.

Sometimes a difficult lesson to learn but if you contemplate or discuss it long enough I believe you may find the merit of that lesson.

Justice vs. Mercy

And my friend Luke (not an Apostle but a believer and disciple of Jesus like us) wrote this to guide me:
Luke 6:27-37

27 "But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

29 To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.

30 Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.

31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.

34 If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.

35 But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

36 Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful.

37 "Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

God Bless You and be with you Scropia. May the Holy Spirit guide our spiritual groth in this thread. Peace. Your friend. Joer

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:29 am

Try this web page:

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Here's what they say:

Just look how the Bible warns of the eternity and permance of hell!

everlasting fire — Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment — Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains — Jude 1:6
eternal damnation — Mark 3:29
eternal judgment — Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire — Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire — Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched — Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable — Luke 3:17
mist of darkness is reserved for ever — 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever — Jude 1:13

My friend, I have searched my Bible, from cover to cover. . . I have studied every occurrence of hell in my Bible — and I can not find one verse, not one word of HOPE for someone in hell! NOT ONE WORD! The rich man in hell in Luke 16 never even asks to get out — He knew there was no way out!

OH MY FRIEND – HELL IS FOREVER AND EVER!

Definitely read Matthew 25. Jesus said it, it must be true, right? (After that you can perhaps decide whether this is a religion you want to adhere to.)

DanZ

DrProctopus · Post by **DrProctopus** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:55 am

I think Christians need to put more consideration towards the idea of mercy and kindness.

The fact that the Bible speaks so vehemently about eternal burning should tell you something...

You are faced with at least two interpretations at this point:

1) God is a psychotic bastard who subjects people to eternal torture
2) The Bible is not the word of God.

I find it much easier to believe that the Bible is not the word of God, than to believe that God is a monster.

Perhaps Christians would benefit by placing their faith in God, rather than in the writings of ancient people.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:35 am

DrProctopus wrote:I think Christians need to put more consideration towards the idea of mercy and kindness.
The fact that the Bible speaks so vehemently about eternal burning should tell you something...
You are faced with at least two interpretations at this point:
1) God is a psychotic bastard who subjects people to eternal torture
2) The Bible is not the word of God.
I find it much easier to believe that the Bible is not the word of God, than to believe that God is a monster.
Perhaps Christians would benefit by placing their faith in God, rather than in the writings of ancient people.

You risk falling into the logical fallacy of False Dilemma.
I can see at least 3 interpretations at this point:

God is a psychotic bastard who subjects people to eternal torture. While they usually do not put it quite so bluntly, this is the interpretation you get from a simplistic reading of the Bible and most conservative Christian theology. Their answers usually come in the form of "but God has himself provided redemption and forgiveness a free gift to all who want it" OR "God wants you to freely choose to obey him, those who end up in hell choose their destination". These answers are unsatisfactory because
1. Why doesn't God simply destroy those who do not please him? Why the sadistic need for eternal torment?
2. Why did he make it so difficult for rational people to believe?
The Bible is not the word of God. Many Christians are understandably loath to go down this road. Without the Bible, how much can you know about Jesus? Christianity without the Bible is difficult if not impossible, although it has been tried.
The Bible does not really teach what some Christians say that it teaches about eternal torment. This is the approach taken by Universalists (those Christians who claim that Jesus' sacrifice really is great enough to save all people) or Annihilationists (those Christians who claim that the worst fate is non-existence). Often traditional Christians accuse those who advocate either of these approaches as heretics.

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:50 pm

Definitely read Matthew 25. Jesus said it, it must be true, right?

I have put that into consideration, yes;

Until then I shall presume that Hell is an eternal torture nevertheless, for by God's righteous judgement all of mankind sins and this if this is it's punishment then is it's punishment it deserves

(After that you can perhaps decide whether this is a religion you want to adhere to.)

Yes, I want to.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:00 pm

Yes, I want to.

That's sick.

Infinite punishment is too great a punishment no matter what the crime. Even if you killed a million people, infinite punishment is billions and billions of times out of proportion.

No moral person could support such a system. No moral person who really believes in hell could possibly devote their life to anything other than opposing the will of YHWH.

DAnZ

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:26 am

Infinite punishment is too great a punishment no matter what the crime. Even if you killed a million people, infinite punishment is billions and billions of times out of proportion.

And some people believe capital punishment is too harsh as well.

How would anyone know what anyone deserves? God alone knows. And he isn't exactly rooting that everybody go to hell. It's what the price of sin is, isn't it? People can get out, but they turn their back on him. So what else is he supposed to do?