protestantism vs catholicism

[kegger]

I'd like to hear from some protestants on this. I'd like to discuss the merits of protestantism. I've talked to friends who are devout protestants and none have coherent answers on why they feel protestantism is valid. sola scriptura was never part of the church until luther. faith alone salvation was never part of chruch belief until luther. their bigget gripes are about praying to saints and"mary worship". people prayed to saints from 1 to 1500 ad! luther ended all that for his followers. the bible was unchanged for 1000 yrs + until luther took books out! so it all hinges on luther who was by his own admission a drunk , adulterous, neurotic megalomaniacal antisemitic heretic. i dont get it. please explain. ill grant u church leadership needed reform. but thats way different from his treason. have you protestants actually read his writings? blasphemous! its funny how many denominations have distanced themselves from him and yet still cling to the sola scriptura, faith alone justification, abridged bible that he all made up! what am i missing?

[Divine Insight]

You are kind of right about war but regardless of the state of man - when someone comes to your house to kill you it is still a sacrifice by those that have to defend the house.

But who would be a threat to an omnipotent God?

An omnipotent God would have no need to make any such sacrifice.

You have to show there is another solution to the problem to claim that. You also have to show that choosing solution A vs solution B would indicate what you are claiming but I don't think you can show another solution.

I don't need to show anything. I'm simply explaining why it makes no sense to me.

The idea that a God would need for humans to nail his son to a pole before he could offer them forgiveness, simply makes no sense to me.

Moreover, I find the whole thing extremely contradictory. Here we have a God who supposedly supports the morality and has even made it a commandment "Thou shalt not kill", and for some reason this God needed humans to kill his only begotten son before he can forgive them of their sins?

At best it's an extremely mixed message would would, at the very least, qualify for an extremely clear explanation by God of why this is necessary. But no such explanation is given. On the contrary, the whole superstition arises because of the idea that this God was supposedly appeased by blood sacrifices made to him in the Old Testament. That very principle was something I reject in the Old Testament, and now Christianity is going to use it as the foundation for Jesus as the sacrificial lamb of God?

No way. I simply don't buy it.

Why should I believe that a supposedly righteous omnipotent being would be appeased by blood sacrifices? This idea isn't any different from Greek mythology, Zeus too was supposedly appease by blood sacrifices. That's just a very common superstitious myth.

So as soon as you compare God with human soldiers you automatically reduce you God to be a complete inept and impotent being.

That appears to be just a premature conclusion and not validated by any evidence.

No evidence is require. It's a matter of pure reasoning.

Men have to make sacrifices because of three basic reason:

1. They have enemies that are a real threat to them.
2. They are not omnipotent and therefore cannot solve their problems without the risk of sacrifice.
3. They are not infinitely wise and therefore cannot figure out how to solve their problems reasonably.


An omnipotent omniscient God shouldn't have any of these failings.

What could be a real threat to this God?

How can an omnipotent God not be able to deal with that threat in a meaningful way without having to resort to desperation and violent methods?

Why is this infinitely wise God not smart enough to figure out a better solution?

If you argue that having his son nailed to a pole seem like a "reasonable" solution to you, then fine. That's your assessment of the situation.

To me, it's nowhere near reasonable. On the contrary, a truly omniscient God would have surely known that it would make absolutely no sense to me at all. In fact, a truly omniscient God would have known that I would find this extremely objectionable on moral grounds.

The very idea that I would need to condone this act on my behalf to qualify for this God's "LOVE" is totally unreasonable. And, IMHO, any truly all-wise God would know that, and fully understand precisely why this is true.

It's not an apologetic argument yet but a common usage argument of the word sacrifice. It is not established for me at least that you know what the word sacrifice means, even in secular usage. So it is very hard to discuss Jesus' sacrifice. My opinion here is that you don't want to recognise the meaning of the word sacrifice in secular usage so you don't have to confront Jesus's sacrifice.

It is an apologetic argument of Christianity in general. In fact the Jews argued against this notion from the very beginning of Christianity. In fact, the Jews have never accepted it to this very day.

And I find it accusatory of you to suggest that I don't want to have to confront Jesus' sacrifice.

Why should I believe that anyone should need to be nailed to a pole to pay for my behavior? I have never done anything in my entire life what would warrant being nailed to a pole.

Besides, the whole idea of a God who requires that someone is beaten and physically crucified before he is willing to forgive someone else is utterly absurd to me.

Why should having Jesus beaten and nailed to a pole "pay" for anyone's sins.

Since when does two wrongs make a right?

The whole idea of Jesus paying for the sins of mankind is absurd, to me. And as I've already pointed out, surly an all-wise supreme being would know this and also be capable of understanding why this is totally unacceptable to me.

Well what is special about it is that it is universal - like the universe teaching us about God. We are made in the image of God so that makes sense.

If we were made in the image of God then why is it that we are supposedly so disgustingly evil that nary a single human soul is worthy of God's love?

If we were made in the image of God, then why is it that no one can qualify for God's love unless they confess that God had to have his son nailed to a pole to pay for their evil nature?

This makes absolutely no sense at all.

If we were made in the image of God then we should innately be like God, not unlike God.

Moreover, there are many humans (especially soldiers, paramedics, firefighters, etc.) that would gladly offer to be crucified on a pole if they thought it would save all of humanity from further suffering. In fact, many of these people would be willing to sacrifice their lives just to "save the earth" as is.

Remember this statement when we talk about narcissism yet. Knowing the difference between What you would like to do versus what you are capable of is a good way to avoid narcissism.

That's irrelevant. If mere moral men are willing to "save the world" if they could then given the opportunity to do so (like Jesus was supposedly given) they'd jump on it. In other words, Jesus would not be anything special because there are countless mortal men who would have easily done the same thing.

In fact, the real oxymoron of Christianity is that the disciples of Jesus themselves supposedly sacrificed their lives in a similar manner before they would even renounce Jesus. Therefore they were every bit as much of a martyr as Jesus was.

I must confess I don't understand what you mean here. What more must you do than to accept Jesus sacrifice? As discussed in my first post saving yourself would be nice if possible but in this case it is not and is just narcissism.

What do you mean when you say, "What more must you do than to accept Jesus' sacrifice?"

Evidently you don't seem to understand what that even means.

Would you be willing to nail Jesus to the cross to save your butt?

If not, then how can you say that you accept his crucifixion on your behalf?

Evidently, for you, it's no big deal.

That seems true to me as well. You realise Jesus never killed himself? Other people killed him. Perhaps death and resurrection was enough and had they not killed Jesus but old age had the sacrifice would still have been valid. It's important to remember that Christian's believe that God's plan succeeds despite what we do but we have never seen the plan as God intended because of what we do. Heaven will be allowing God to lead. So your characterization of God in that sentence is not the situation at all. What we can conclude however is that God is a good that can make good from bad.

You pass it off as simple "Other people killed him". But that's no good. You need to accept that he was crucified for your sins, not for the sins of others.

And besides, according to Christianity Jesus didn't die. As you say he was resurrected, and then shipped off to heaven. Is that the wages of sin?

No it's not. On the contrary being resurrected after physical death and ascending to heaven is the REWARD that every Christian dreams of. Well, if Jesus received the REWARD of eternal life in heaven then what did he sacrifice?

Jesus didn't die spiritually. So he didn't sacrifice anything.

So you're addressing an issue that I have profound objections to.

Great!

But you're not addressing it in a way that makes any sense.

Moreover, if the welfare of all of humanity could be saved by nailing a single person to a pole, I'd volunteer to be the "sacrificial lamb" myself. As I'm sure many people would.

That would be narcissism.

How would that be narcissism?

I'm talking about genuine DEATH here. To die and NEVER be resurrected.

A real sacrifice. There even atheist who would do that if they truly believed that their sacrifice would help humanity in a profound and positive way. In fact, there are atheist who risk their lives just to save the life of a single solitary other person in the world just as it currently is.

How is that narcissism?

In fact, if people thought that they would be resurrected after the crucifixion and be shipped off to heaven to become the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, you'd see a line of volunteers stretching as far as the eye could see.

No one thinks that I hope.

Well, it shouldn't be hard for a Christian to imagine this scenario since this is indeed the Jesus Story.

Suddenly the idea that they would be "saving humanity" would not longer even be important to them, many egotists would simply be lusting to become the eternal King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Saving humanity would be a mere side-affect of that egotistical goal.

Well said. I think we do martyr ourselves pointless more than you think we do in many arenas of life because of our egotism.

So why do you not then see how trivial the Jesus story is?

If Jesus was a man then his death was egotistic narcissistic nonsense. If he is God then he actually can pay the price for our sins. But I find with you personally I am not sure we have a common understanding of the words we are using that we even converse on the same subject.

Pay the price of our sins?

And what exactly is that price supposed to be?

Death? Jesus didn't die. He was resurrected and shipped off to heaven. That is NOT the wages of sin.

Jesus didn't even pay the wages of sin for a single solitary soul, much less for all the souls of mankind.

You'd have to explain what was "PAID" and why it was even necessary.

Like I say, two wrongs don't make a right anyway.

If you go out and rape and kill a woman, and then we nail an innocent man to a pole to "pay" for your horrible sin, how in the world does that make anything "Right"?

Now we have a dead woman who had been raped, and we have an innocent dead man hanging on a pole, and this somehow "pays" for the sins of the criminal who says, "Yeah I accept having that innocent man nailed to a pole to pay for my crimes."

Where is there any sense in any of that?

The whole scenario is utterly absurd, IMHO.

I can't even begin to imagine how having an innocent demigod nailed to a pole should pay for anyone's sins.

The whole thing is utterly absurd, IMHO.

We have dismissed all of Greek mythology on far lesser grounds.

[Truely Free]

I'd like to hear from some protestants on this. I'd like to discuss the merits of protestantism. I've talked to friends who are devout protestants and none have coherent answers on why they feel protestantism is valid. sola scriptura was never part of the church until luther. faith alone salvation was never part of chruch belief until luther. their bigget gripes are about praying to saints and"mary worship". people prayed to saints from 1 to 1500 ad! luther ended all that for his followers. the bible was unchanged for 1000 yrs + until luther took books out! so it all hinges on luther who was by his own admission a drunk , adulterous, neurotic megalomaniacal antisemitic heretic. i dont get it. please explain. ill grant u church leadership needed reform. but thats way different from his treason. have you protestants actually read his writings? blasphemous! its funny how many denominations have distanced themselves from him and yet still cling to the sola scriptura, faith alone justification, abridged bible that he all made up! what am i missing?

Hey, Kegger. I'd like to talk to you about some church history, than you can decide for yourself.
Firstly, though, I'd like let you know that I don't believe that Catholics are not Christians. Christians are those who love and follow Christ, and you can do that despite bad doctrine.

sola scriptura was never part of the church until luther.

I'm not sure you can support that statement. During the early years of the church the Bible was not viewed with the same authoritative nature that it is today because Christ had recently come into history. As the books of the NT were written following his life people had to sort through what was true and what was the "copy cat" The OT was still God's Word, but Christ's actions had made following the law invalid (that is obvious in the NT) so the focus was on the direct testimony, written or spoken, by the apostles and their pupils (eye-witnesses) But even in the early church apostles urged people to read the scriptures and to cling to the words of Christ. No one was dying for Peter, even when Peter was alive, but many were dying for Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures, even before they were fully compiled. Within a few years the church had a working version of the NT, though it may have differed some. When real controversy arose concerning the doctrine of the church, leaders came together and compiled the most conservative canon of scripture for which they would be willing to die, and on which they would place church doctrine. Other books that were being held as scripture were not all called heresy (though some had always fallen into that category, even before the council of Trent) some were rejected, and some simply called "good books" and left at that.
The NT canon was established by choosing books that were written by men who were close to Jesus personally, or close to the apostles, thus they knew that eyewitness accounts backed up the historical proof of the Bible. For more on the history of the Bible (NT especially) check out this excellent teaching
https://soundcloud.com/user7790233/has- ... -corrupted

The Catholic church depends on the Catholic ministers to address correct doctrine. Wherever this doctrine came from, it had dire consequences on civilization. Some even believe it was responsible for the rise of the dark age.
Before the Reformation the Catholic church had full control over the Holy scriptures. They were written in Latin during a time when most people could not read their own language much less a dead one. Beyond that all church teaching and function was done in Latin, so people could not even understand a possibly eschewed teaching of the word (the Bible can often be taught out of context) Because of this the church leaders became very powerful and positions of leadership were held by ambitious men rather than Godly ones. We see in history that the catholic church had armies, influenced governments, owned lands full of feudal slaves, and willingly slaughtered for money. The doctrine that the church leaders had more authority that the Bible was perpetuated to keep absolute power in the hands of men who didn't live out Christian lives in the least. The reason why you have the ability to read the Bible today is due entirely to the blood of reformers who believed that knowledge should not be horded, and that the followers of Christ had a right to read the words of Christ.

Here we see an illegal Protestant translation of the Bible covered in the blood of the Protestant reformer. The reformers translated the "Catholic" Bible (The Septuagent with it's extra "deuterocanonical books) as well as the more conservative Protestant Bible.

Before I go into the Reformation I want to explain how the church got to this point. During it's early years Christians were widely persecuted. This was not because they were contentious, but because they would not say "Ceaser is Lord" as commanded by Roman Law, but refused to worship a mere man and cried "Jesus is Lord". Early Christians were the major factors in the ending of infanticide, human sacrifice, the roman gladiator games and had revolutionary ideas about the humanity of women, slaves and the poor (who were considered as sub-human in other cultures)
The end of the Roman's persecution of the church came through the conversion of Constantine the Great. Trying to support the faith he came to love, Constantine ended the persecution of the church, but began to favor Christianity. He mostly believed in the freedom or religion, but gave preferential treatment to Christians. Rulers who followed him became more extreme, giving tax breaks to Christians, taking land from pagans and eventually, as the church began to rise, killing practices of the "dark arts". Where as before, only true believers would dare follow Christ for fear of death now it was the opposite. Because of this pagan worship began to flood the church. Instead of leaving their gods the pagans would rename them and bring them into the church. John Calvin writes a very good historical book about this happening in the early church called "A treatise on Relics".
As Pagan worshipers rose through the ranks church doctrine changed to favor them. We see this is the worship of Mary (goddess worship) the worship of the saints (pantheism and Gnosticism) and multiple other church traditions. Even holidays were taken over. Holidays such as Christmas, Easter and holoween all took on a Christian facade in an effort to draw in more people and placate the Pagans who were missing their revelries.
Even in this early age their were men bravely teaching that Salvation is through faith, that the word of God stands for unchangeable truth and that Jesus Christ should be the soul object of worship. Some were killed or excommunicated as the Roman Catholic church gained power in the government. Once rising to power the church was able to quit putting on a show to get followers. Instead they used amassed armies to kill anyone who refused to follow their doctrine. We see in church history that this is true. Roman Catholic power was spread through the sword. The Pope had become a king the church had become a political power more than a religion. They had laws, punishments and armies. Through all this the Protestant movement was present (of course, not being called protestant) We see it in many of the wiser and more Christ-like Catholics up until the Reformation.
Unlike popular myth, Luthor was by no means the first reformer. His doctrine was not new or made up. Berengarius was the first recorded reformer in Foxe's Book of Martyrs (excellent book on church history) http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html
Luther was only a popular German reformer. He didn't write a new doctrine, but when he read the book of Romans he was swayed to Christian doctrine. He was one of the most devout Catholic before that, and his torment over his sin is what led him to Christ.
Nailing up the thesis was nothing new. It was part of the culture to use the church door as a buliton board, especially for religious type things. http://theresurgence.com/2011/09/08/mar ... ive-theses
Luther was a bit of a bullish guy. He was very brave, but also the ultimate bachelor. He often had to apologize to the Pope because of personal attacks he made on him as well as to other church authorities. But no matter Luthers failings, Protestantism doesn't worship Martin Luther ( most don't even know who he is) we worship Jesus Christ.

faith alone salvation was never part of chruch belief until luther.

Scripture and church history kinda disagree with you there. Yes, there was a long period during which salvation by works was more prevalent, but it did not kill out the doctrine of salvation by faith. Before the rise of the Roman Catholic church this was the only teaching of the true church of Christ, and that of the apostles.

[/quote]people prayed to saints from 1 to 1500 ad!

DO you have any historical proof for that. The NT doesn't support it, even in a purely historical sense.

Finally, you call the Protestant Bible an Abridged version written by Martin Luther. That is a false understanding of church history. The Jewish council of Jamina Canonized the OT during the days of the early church. The council accepted only books written in the Hebrew language, as they saw these as being older and more accurate. The Septuagint is the Greek version of the OT that the Catholics use today. This version was used by the early church as they spread out to Greek speaking areas because of the Hellenization of both the Hebrew nation and the surrounding nations. (Basically, it was easier to teach Greek speaking people with a Greek translation) However, the books that are called the "deuterocanonical " books, or the ones that the Protestants don't accept were written originally in the Greek, while the others were only translated. When Luther and other Protestant reformers went to translate the Bible they realized that the Bible accepted by the church of their time was formed through anti-antisemitism and church tradition. They chose to only translate the more conservative Hebrew books rather than take the risk of including heresy. They viewed their Reformation to be a renewal of the original doctrine of the church, so they wanted to return to the original roots. Luther included the deuterocanonical books in his translation, but noted that they were not historically included in the Hebrew Canon of the OT and should be viewed as useful books for reading, not as scripture.

I know that was a lot. I LOVE church history, but there are a lot of things you say that seem to be based on hear-say. I suggest you do some digging. If you choose to stay in the Catholic church: you will have a greater knowledge. If you choose to change, you will have a greater knowledge. As a sister in faith however, I urge you to do what you will do for a love of Jesus Christ. If you feel that is better done in the confines of the Catholic church, than love him within the confines of the Catholic church with all the love you have to give. Either way, I suggest you do some research, It will grow your faith either way. Truth has a way of doing that
God Bless.

[Truely Free]

I'm sorry, my "quote" markers got messed up yet again. It happens in almost every post!

[The Tongue]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

[Divine Insight wrote]............Pay the price of our sins?

And what exactly is that price supposed to be?

Death? Jesus didn't die. He was resurrected and shipped off to heaven. That is NOT the wages of sin.

Jesus didn't even pay the wages of sin for a single solitary soul, much less for all the souls of mankind.

You'd have to explain what was "PAID" and why it was even necessary.

Like I say, two wrongs don't make a right anyway.

[The Tongues Response]........protestantism vs catholicism: Like many daughters, the denominational daughter bodies that were spawned from the spirit=information=words of their mother who sits on the seven hills of Rome, are vying for her position as the head of the body that calls itself christendom.

It was because of your ignorance to the truths that are revealed in the Holy Scriptures that you abandoned your God, and now out of ignorance, you attack all that is Biblical.

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year, the one year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

From 'THE SECRETS OF ENOCH.' And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity.

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lords face.

And the Lord (Who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel which could save but one man) said to his servants tempting them: Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity, and the glorious ones bowed down to the Lord, and said: Let Enoch go (Release Enoch) according to Thy word.

And the Lord said to Michael: Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory.

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the suns rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

This is from the Book of Enoch the Prophet, which is verified by the bible itself. 37: 4; Til the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of Spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given me.

It was the living spirit of Enoch within Noah and his family, which rose from the baptismal waters of the earth and ascended to the ends of time, evolving on the spirits of the body of post-flood mankind which were gathered to him.

He is the only man to have witnessed the end of all things, when the universal elements burned up and fell as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and dept in the Great Abyss/Black Hole, which Enoch describes as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which there was nothing, not even the firmament=space in which the heavens had existed.

To equate the man Enoch, who was the chosen cornerstone to which the spirits of man were united in his evolution to the ends of all things, with the glorious simulacrum which is the sin offering that is prepared for us by God, who dies in the process of involution for our salvation, by releasing from the least to the greatest, the perfected spirits on which he had evolved, would be like equating mankind with the organic molecules in the primeval sludge pools of organic material of the junior earth from which mankind had evolved.

It was He, The Light of Man who came down from the heights of time, who Abraham claimed as his God.

When Abraham was born, not one of his ten ancestors had died and had been gathered to the living and evolving spirit of Enoch, our ancestral Father who dwells behind the veil of the flesh, within the inner most sanctuary of his temporary tabernacle/tent, which is the androgynous body of mankind, as he awaits the creation of his new glorious Temple of brilliant and blinding light, which is the new androgynous body of The Son of Man of which new non-physical species, the man Jesus was the first of many brothers and sisters to be conformed to the image of Gods only begotten Son who is born of the great androgynous body of mankind.

There is a physical body said Paul so there has to be a spiritual body, but it is the physical body that comes first. The glorious spiritual body of the "SON OF MAN," did not proceed the physical body of mankind from which He is Born through the great pain and tribulation of the androgynous mother body of mankind, whose life is justified by the only begotten Son that she bear to her Lord.

Abraham was true to who He was, to see Abraham, was to see the Man Enoch as he was before he began his evolution to the ends of time. From that day onward all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for any sins or mistakes that they had made in their lives, were gathered to the growing spirit of Enoch, within the bosom of Abraham.

When the Son of Man, of who, the man Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, descended through time and was chosen by Abraham as his God: Who I Am=Who I Will be, said to Abraham, In blessing, I will bless you, and in multiplying (Bearing sons) I will multiply you.

From that day onward, all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for any sins or mistakes that they had made in their lives, were judged and separated from the unrighteous spirits and gathered to the evolving spirit of Enoch, within the bosom of Abraham.

Isaiah 57: 1; Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they (Good People) die, no calamity can harm them. Those who lead good lives, find peace and rest in death.

If those who live good lives find peace and rest in death, then there awaits a state of fearful expectation for those who lead wicked lives, as described by Jesus in his Parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

After the spirit that was Enoch had evolved within the inner dimension that co-exists within this visible three dimensional body for three days, or rather three periods of One thousand years, he was made manifest as the man Jesus, (To see Jesus, was to see our heavenly Lord The Son of Man as he was at that point in his ascension to the ends of time) Enoch the cornerstone to the great heavenly simulacrum, after being brought to the perfection that was seen in the man Jesus, was the first to be released from the Glorious body of our sin offering, it was he, the least in the body of Gods only begotten Son, whose spirit descended upon Jesus, the first born of the new androgynous body of The Son of Man, who could never die, but who ceased to be an individual entity, when all the righteous Spirits of who, the ancestral Father spirit within Jesus was their compilation, were released and their graves were opened, when Jesus, his chosen heir and duplication, cried out on the cross, My God, my God, why have you abandoned me.

It was the Christ, the one anointed by the Most High in the creation who has ceased to exist and will not be seen again, but the spirits of the righteous, of who he was their compilation are to be reborn on earth and take the thrones that have been prepared for them and rule as kings, etc. This is the first resurrection, see Revelation 20: 6.

Jesus, who was one with his indwelling evolving spirit, (ENOCH) who was the only man to have been given the lot of eternal LIFE, and who was the evolved compilation of all the righteous spirit over whom the second death had no power, could not die, said in John 14: 30; I cannot talk to you much longer for (Death) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know I love the Father, that is why I do all that he commands of me.

Although Jesus the duplication of his indwelling evolving righteous ancestral spirit, was offered up as our sacrifice, like Isaac the son of Gods promise who was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, it was not he who died.

As Jesus on the cross gave up his spirit, he cried out, My God, my God, why have you abandoned me," and at that very moment, the graves of all those spirits, who had been judged after paying the blood price for their inherited sin and over whom death had no more power, were opened, and three days later, they entered into the holy city of Jerusalem and showed themselves as the risen Christ, The Anointed One who revealed himself to us through his obedient servant Jesus.

Those spirits who were judged in the flesh as all are judged, now live as God lives, gathering to themselves all the spirits of their descendants who fall asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin etc, and over them the second death has no power.

Like the man Enoch, who was reborn on earth in his chosen host body, they, who are of the body of the sin offering who diminishes into nothingness as the spirits by which he was formed are brought to perfection through suffering, are released, and will do the things that Jesus had done only greater things than he, who was the chosen cornerstone and the least in the body of the great heavenly simulacrum which is the compilation of all mankind and dies in place of the physical body of mankind from which he was formed, and they who are of the body of the one who was anointed as the successor to the throne of the THE MOST HIGH in the creation, will be reborn on earth as was Enoch.

Each of the perfected ones who have won the victory over the God of this world, will chose for themselves an earthly host body, which they will fill with their gathered information=spirit, and will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and they, clothed and girded in fire, shall sit beside Jesus who is their chosen high priest and King, in the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation.

From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (Who I Am,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.

[otseng]

It was because of your ignorance to the truths that are revealed in the Holy Scriptures that you abandoned your God, and now out of ignorance, you attack all that is Biblical.

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[Cewakiyelo]

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

Hi DI - my main objection is that you don't use words correctly.

For instance accepting the sacrifice of another is a humble action. I am totally humble by the sacrifice of the soldiers that died for my country. I am humbled by my parents sacrifice. I am humbled by the sacrifice of the guy that makes me coffee. These are basic understandings of sacrifice. Doing something you don't have to do for others.

So if you consider others as sacrificing their time to serve you as opposed to thinking that they are doing their job and so there is no need to thank them then you would be taking an opportunity to prevent being narcissistic. Viewing the action as a sacrifice is a very good way of being humble.

Continuing in this general way we can discuss works based theologies. If you think you can be good enough to get into heaven then you think, that at least on a moral level, within the limits of your abilities, you are equal to God. This seems to fit perfectly within the notion of narcissism, thinking one is great.

When you consider God, the supreme being, it is actual not narcissism for someone that is the best at something to say they are. It's actually just a factual position. It is like the current world record holder to say yes I am the best at that. It's just a fact.

But when I consider someone that says they are going to defeat their ego I do get concerned about their outlook on life and if they are suffering from narcissism. I've never heard an explanation that doesn't try to see the person involved trying to become one with the universe. To my mind it is an ego that is so out of control that it believes it can become as big as the universe and surely that to is narcissism.

I believe you have hit the narcissist, I mean nail, on the head.

[Cewakiyelo]

[Replying to post 1 by kegger]

I can only speak about the Catholicism portion of this post, as I was raised in the Catholic tradition. I am no longer a practicing Catholic. The reasons are due to inconsistencies between the scriptures and practices within the church.

We read do not be called Father while calling the priest father.

Do not pray repetitious prayers while repeating the rosary.

Do not carve images or likenesses of anything in heaven or upon earth and bow to or serve them. That would include statues of Mary, or crosses with Jesus upon them. It is one thing to see the statues or pictures or crosses and have them cause you to reflect upon those depicted. However, it is another thing to bend and pray to and worship them at their sight.

Continuing on with the Bowing to any other than God comes the whole symbolism that is projected during a mass. The priest who is called Father sits before the congregation. He sits on a throne. Usually the center of three thrones which is substantially larger than the other two. To either side sit his servants, alter boys. He sits on the opposite side of the alter facing the people. The people bow before the alter and priest.

The whole symbolic picture is of God sitting upon the throne ruling over His people. His people bowing down before the alter of God with Father on the other side of the throne in a position to accept an offering.

I could not justify these and other things that I am told not to do by the scriptures but then shown example of doing those very things by the church. Especially bowing to the alter where a man being called father was seated on a throne on the other side. This should only occur with God our Father sitting in the throne.

I hope the new Pope makes a few big reforms. He seems to be on a better path than most before him.

[The Tongue]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

[Divine Insight wrote]........An omnipotent omniscient God shouldn't have any of these failings.

What could be a real threat to this God?

How can an omnipotent God not be able to deal with that threat in a meaningful way without having to resort to desperation and violent methods?

And what makes YOU, who have admitted that you were once a Christian who has abandoned the God of the Bible, believe that anything is a threat to an omniscient God?

[Divine Insight wrote]........Why is this infinitely wise God not smart enough to figure out a better solution?

He was smart enough to figure out the best solution to satisfy those who accuse his only begotten Son as being a sinner, its just that many of his detractors are simply too ignorant to his truths to be able to understand.

1st Corinthians 15: There is a physical body says Paul, so there has to be a spiritual body, but it is the physical body that comes first.

The spiritual body of the Only begotten Son of God, who is the spirit that is currently developing within the body of mankind and is born of the physical androgynous body of man, as The Son of Man, who does not precede the physical body in which he develops.

You are created in the image of God, and when your physical body of universal elements was created, there, in the inner most sanctuary of that body, behind the veil of the flesh, was all the spirit=information that was gathered by all your ancestors who had come before you, human and pre-human.

YOU the mind=spirit has developed and continues to develop as the controlling godhead to your body, from all the information that is taken in through the senses of that body, your words are merely the expression of the gathered information that is the mind=spirit that is you.

If that body was born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch, etc, then no information could be taken into the brain, (The throne of Godhead) and "YOU" the mind=spirit, would and could never have begun to develop.

And so it is with our universal Controlling Godhead, it was not until his body, which is this particular generation of the universe in which was the LOGOS, which is all the information gathered from the universal bodies that preceded this one. (The genetic information of the generations of the universe)

The Mind=Spirit that is developing within this universal body, has gone through many stages in its development and has always ruled through the body of the Most High in the creation at any particular time in his development. He once ruled the earth as Lord of all creatures for some three million years in the body of the Most High species to have developed on earth at that time, which was the old upright walking lizards, No species can exist for that long without developing a high degree of intelligence, step into a fire, remember the pain and dont do it again.

That intelligence was The Light of man the gathered ancestral information=spirit within the first humans to have developed, and He, the evolving controlling Godhead within the Most High in the creation, (Mankind) was the one who commanded King Saul, through his obedient prophet Samuel, (See 1st Samuel 15: 1; to destroy the Amalekites and all their possessions, for what their ancestors had done to the Israelites some four hundred years previously, Saul was commanded to kill all the men, women, children, babies, cattle, sheep, camels and donkeys, Saul sinned and was punished for not obeying the commands of our developing Godhead, who does everything according to the plan recorded in the LOGOS.

For each successive generation of the universe rises a step higher than the previous parental universal body, so that every later generation, first brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then develops further before preparing the seed=information for the universal body that will follow it.

It is He, the only begotten Son of the Godhead to the previous universal body, the Son that is born as was his Father, who also was born of the androgynous body of mankind, the Most High physical species to develop in each generation of the universe.

[Divine Insight wrote]........If you argue that having his son nailed to a pole seem like a "reasonable" solution to you, then fine. That's your assessment of the situation.

God would not be a just God, if we are all forced to pay the penalty for the mistakes that we make as we are brought to perfection, through the pain and suffering that is endured by our body as a result of the sins and mistakes that we make while in the flesh, if his only begotten Son unlike us, is not held accountable for the sins of the body in which he gains all the knowledge, wisdom and insight, needed by the heir to the throne of Godhead to the MOST HIGH, from the lessons that he learns from the mistakes that are made while in the flesh.

[Divine Insight wrote]........To me, it's nowhere near reasonable. On the contrary, a truly omniscient God would have surely known that it would make absolutely no sense to me at all.

Of course he knew that it would make no sense whatsoever, to those who are unable to endure in his word to the end, but abandon Him because they do not understand the end result of his actions.

[Divine Insight wrote]........In fact, a truly omniscient God would have known that I would find this extremely objectionable on moral grounds.

Of course he did, and those pompous, pious, pretentious people, who judge Gods actions as Satanic, do not inherit the throne of the MOST HIGH, and inherit the glorious eternal bodies of Unapproachable light. They are not counted among the many brothers and sisters who are to be conformed to the image of Gods only begotten Son, as the new non-physical androgynous body, in which The SON of MAN, Gods only begotten Son, will dwell on earth among mankind, of which spiritual body, the man Jesus was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind, but those who condemn the actions of Gods only begotten Son as extremely objectionable, according to the high moral ground upon which they stand, are cast back into the refining fires of another cycle of physical universal activity.

Tamah played the prostitute and seduced Judah her father-in-law to who she bore the twins Perez and his brother Zerah the Patriarch of the tribe of the scarlet thread, was she an obedient handmaid to her indwelling spirit who has the end result all planed out? Or do you find her actions extremely objectionable, according to the high moral ground upon which you stand.

Rahab the mother of Boaz the grandfather of King David, was a prostitute from Jericho, is she to be condemned as a sinner, according to the high moral ground upon which you stand,?

Ruth the mother of Jesse, who with her sexual cunning snared her husband Boaz, can her actions be condemned as sinful according to the high moral ground upon which you stand,?

Bathsheba, who committed adultery with King David, who caused her husband "Uriah to be killed, and who later bore to David her fourth son Solomon, of who the Lord said in 1st Chronicles 17: 12-13; "I will be his father and he will be my son, etc" The son of the Lord, who was born of blood and adultery, was to build the glorious temple of God upon the earth, which would be filled with the dazzling light of the Lords presence in which he would dwell on earth among mankind. The child born of Blood and adultery who the Lord declared would be his Son and he would be his father, was blessed to reign over the most glorious period of Israel's history. I suppose that you would find this extremely objectionable, according to the high moral ground upon which you stand.

Was Bathsheba an agent of the Lord, and was her sin, not hidden in the shadows beneath the wings of the Lord of Spirits?

And what of Mary the obedient handmaid of the Lord, who conceived in her womb, "JESUS" the biological son of her half brother, "Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=HELI," who had also fathered Mary the daughter of Anna, who was one of the three daughters of Jehoshua the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC.

Was her act of obedience not overshadowed by the Lord? Or do you find this to be extremely objectionable, according to the high moral ground upon which you stand.

If, according to the high moral ground upon which you stand, you judge the actions of these five women, who the Lord Had Matthew record in the genealogy of Joseph ben Jacob who married Mary the mother of Jesus, as extremely objectionable, know now, that the Lord God our saviour, The Son of Man declares the actions of these women in obedience to his Father, as Righteous, as HE said through his obedient earthly host body, the man Jesus, They who do the will of the Father, are my brother, my sister, and my mother.

In the same manner that Moses lifted up upon a pole, the IMAGE of the serpent in the wilderness, so too Did the man Jesus who was the earthly IMAGE of our Lord God and saviour, had to be lifted up upon a pole, in order that all those who are dying because of the accusing venom of the Old Serpent that is coursing through their veins, to be saved, only have to turn to HIS earthly IMAGE who has been lifted up.

I argue that having the earthly IMAGE of his son nailed to a pole was the only solution.That's MY assessment of the situation.

[Divine Insight]

And what makes YOU, who have admitted that you were once a Christian who has abandoned the God of the Bible, believe that anything is a threat to an omniscient God?

I haven't abandoned any God. That's your own misunderstanding. What has happened is that I have realized that the Biblical fables simply can't be true. This is not at all unlike "YOU" believing that the Greek God Zeus is a nothing but fable.

Your personal judgmental accusations that I have "abandoned" any God is nothing other than hate speech generated from pure ignorance on your part.

What is true is that I have realize that the God of the Hebrews is every bit as false as the God of the Greeks. There is nothing there to "abandon".

[Divine Insight wrote]........Why is this infinitely wise God not smart enough to figure out a better solution?

He was smart enough to figure out the best solution to satisfy those who accuse his only begotten Son as being a sinner, its just that many of his detractors are simply too ignorant to his truths to be able to understand.

I see things quite differently. It was the God of the Old Testament who supposedly commanded people to kill heathens where a heathen is defined as anyone who speaks out against the word of the God of the Old Testament. Jesus totally renounced many of the teachings of the Old Testament. He clearly renounced the judging of others and the stoning of sinners to death. He also renounced an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and instead he taught people not to seek revenge and instead to turn the other cheek.

Jesus was the greatest heathen in all of history. If the Pharisees conspired to have Jesus executed because of his heathen ways then they were only doing what the Biblical God had commanded them to do. Thus they would be the ones who were fulfilling God's plan.

What you see as a supposedly "wise" God, I see as a fairytale of a truly blundering idiot. If there was a God who sent his only begotten son to change his teachings after he had already commanded people not to listen to anyone who would change his commandments, that God would need to be the dumbest God in existence.

This is merely one reason why these fables can't possibly be true.

1st Corinthians 15: There is a physical body says Paul, so there has to be a spiritual body, but it is the physical body that comes first.

It doesn't logically follow that if there is a physical body there has to be a spiritual body. So Paul had no grounds for his claim.

Moreover, Paul is a known liar. He had proclaimed that those who don't don't believe in his God are "God Haters" guilty of all manner of evil things.

In fact, here is a copy of Paul's lies if you would like to read them for yourself.


Romans 1:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


I know for a fact that these claims are not true. Therefore they are indeed lies. I know many atheists, as well as people of other religions that do not recognize Paul's God who are not evil people. I also know from personal experience that having realize the fallacy of the Bible does not make me an evil person either.

So I know with 100% certainly that at least some of the Biblical authors were indeed habitual liars, and that these scriptures cannot be trusted to speak the truth about anything.

You are created in the image of God, and when your physical body of universal elements was created, there, in the inner most sanctuary of that body, behind the veil of the flesh, was all the spirit=information that was gathered by all your ancestors who had come before you, human and pre-human.

YOU the mind=spirit has developed and continues to develop as the controlling godhead to your body, from all the information that is taken in through the senses of that body, your words are merely the expression of the gathered information that is the mind=spirit that is you.

Now you're starting to sound like Eastern Mysticism that has nothing at all to do with the Jealous God of the Hebrews.

[Divine Insight wrote]........If you argue that having his son nailed to a pole seem like a "reasonable" solution to you, then fine. That's your assessment of the situation.

God would not be a just God, if we are all forced to pay the penalty for the mistakes that we make as we are brought to perfection, through the pain and suffering that is endured by our body as a result of the sins and mistakes that we make while in the flesh, if his only begotten Son unlike us, is not held accountable for the sins of the body in which he gains all the knowledge, wisdom and insight, needed by the heir to the throne of Godhead to the MOST HIGH, from the lessons that he learns from the mistakes that are made while in the flesh.

There is no apologetic excuse that you could possibly construct that would justify a supposedly infinitely wise supreme begin stooping to something as disgusting as having his son crucified on a pole to pay for the sins of man.

Sorry, but there's no way I'll ever buy into such an absurd claim.

All you're basically doing here is is asking me to believe that we are have supremely powerful creator who is himself dumber than rocks.

[Divine Insight wrote]........To me, it's nowhere near reasonable. On the contrary, a truly omniscient God would have surely known that it would make absolutely no sense to me at all.

Of course he knew that it would make no sense whatsoever, to those who are unable to endure in his word to the end, but abandon Him because they do not understand the end result of his actions.

Sorry. Again, that's nothing more than extremely lame apologetic argument that doesn't even begin to hold any inkling of intelligence.

You can't have a God casting innocent people into the pits of hell simply because they failed to understand his truly lame and blatantly ignorant methods.

This is yet another reason why this religion cannot possibly be true. Your God necessarily need to condemn decent honest people simply because they aren't willing to stoop to his level of ignorance.

That's neither justice, or nor righteousness.

This religion amounts to nothing other than derogatory accusations toward anyone who refuses to cower down to supporting its ignorance.

I do not support a evil God who would stoop to such extreme ignorance. And I would gladly go to hell in support of my superior morality.

You are attempting to condone ignorance in the name of your religion.

The religion cannot possibly be true.

[Divine Insight wrote]........In fact, a truly omniscient God would have known that I would find this extremely objectionable on moral grounds.

Of course he did, and those pompous, pious, pretentious people, who judge Gods actions as Satanic, do not inherit the throne of the MOST HIGH, and inherit the glorious eternal bodies of Unapproachable light.

Now you're sounding like Paul, making ignorant accusations toward anyone who refuses to buy into your religion.

Sorry, but you're not even on the right track here. I reject the Hebrew fables as being highly immoral. I do not judge any "God". There is no "God" associated with the Hebrew fables. There can't be because no supremely intelligent being could possibly be that stupid.

So the religion has to be false. Our creator cannot possibly be as ignorant and stupid as the Hebrew mythology demands. It's that simple.

I argue that having the earthly IMAGE of his son nailed to a pole was the only solution.That's MY assessment of the situation.

Then you argue that your God had no choice. If this was the ONLY solution, then your God was forced into this corner with no other options available to him. It would have been an act of desperation on the part of the creator.

In other words, this religion requires that this God is inept and desperate.

This is just yet another reason why I reject these myths as clearly being false.

By your own recognition this God would need to have no other choice in order to justify his desperation to stoop to such low methods.

But that would require that your God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient and certainly not all-wise.

So you've got a blatant contradiction right there. You've got a God who'd only "defense" you can offer is to claim that he had no choice in the matter. In other words, he's totally inept and cannot possibly be omniscient.

So you've reduced your God to being inept in an effort to justify these highly immoral and ignorant acts.

That doesn't work for me.

I'd rather just chalk the religion up to being absurd and move forward to far better and more righteous things, even if that requires embracing atheism.

Atheism would be a far more righteous existence than a Creator God that you need to constantly make excuses for.

If you want to believe in this religion for yourself, please by my guest.

But if you intent to sell it to me you better be prepared to hear just how utterly absurd and inconsistent these ancient fables are.

You're accusations toward me that I'm somehow "abandoning" this ignorant God of yours are totally uncalled for. As far as I'm concerned that's hate speech.

I'm telling you right now that I reject Christianity because I see it as being a totally impossible collection of highly ignorant fables that can't possibly be true.

And there is nothing you have said in your post here to even remotely challenge that.

Your main excuse appears to be nothing more than the the idea that your God had no choice but to stoop this low. But all you've done with that argument is rape your God of his omnipotence and omniscience. You're demanding that he is neither wise enough, nor powerful enough to come up with better solutions.

So all you've done is argue to me that your God is too inept to be able to do things using decent intelligent methods.

Any religion that requires that a God had to have his demigod son nailed to a pole to save the fate of a few individuals of his own creation is already a doomed religion.

There is nothing you could ever say that could justify such an absurd scenario. IMHO.

Mover over to some of the Eastern Mystical religions and you'll find a "God" who is so infinitely wise that She has figure out how to save every single soul she ever creates. Nary as soul is lost. No demigod sons or daughters need to be nailed to any poles, etc.

If you like the idea of a truly infinitely wise God you should be considering a truly infinitely wise religion.

There is nothing wise about the Hebrew religion that has a jealous male-chauvinistic God who loses the vast majority of souls he creates to a hell-fire of damnation which he had also created.

There is no wisdom in that religion at all. None whatsoever.

So if you want to believe in a truly wise God you should chose a truly wise religion. Anything less is just an insult to God anyway.

Why chose such a derogatory religion as Christianity as your picture of God?

You should chose a religion that reflects the wisdom that you believe God might actually possess.

Just my thoughts for whatever they might be worth.

[The Tongue]

[Replying to post 19 by Divine Insight]

[D I. Wrote]......... You're accusations toward me that I'm somehow "abandoning" this ignorant God of yours are totally uncalled for. As far as I'm concerned that's hate speech.

No mate! The fact that you, who admit that you were once a Christian and that you rejected/(To throw away, to abandon) Christianity and the God of the bible because you, in your lack of understanding, and your total inability to comprehend that which is recorded in the bible, saw it as being a totally impossible collection of highly ignorant fables that can't possibly be true.

You then go out of your way to offend the people who believe in the biblical God, by saying that the Bible is a fairytale of a god, who in your opinion is a truly blundering idiot.

Mine is not a hate speech, my friend. If you want to see a hate speech, ask anyone who has read your post, they will tell you what a hate speech is: hatred of God and his devoted followers, who you believe are mindless idiots who believe in (According to your accusing opinion) a god who is a blundering idiot. and who believe the prophets and apostles, who you have stated are liars and the authors of superstitious fables. How dumb must those millions and millions of people be, according to your proud, arrogant, ignorant and erroneous opinion of their beliefs?

Your words are merely the manifestation of the god hating mind=spirit that you are. You, who were once a Christian who did not like to retain God in your knowledge, has become a proud, boaster who condemns as Liars and superstitious inventors of fables, those prophets and apostles who understood and recorded the wonderful message of salvation.

Your inference that the religious beliefs of so many millions of people as being superstitious fables, accuses them of being mindless followers of lying fairy tale authors and a god who is a blundering idiot.

You will die as all men die, but the minds of those who believe in the resurrection will live on according to the belief of those minds, irrelevant as to their differing interpretations of the Holy Scripture, for no two humans can entirely agree on all things. While the mind that is you and all true atheists (If there is really such a thing) who have no hope whatsoever, and truly believe that the developing mind=spirit that is they, which is currently developing as a potential child of the God family, will cease to exist with the return of the body to the universal elements from which they were created: then their belief will be their reward.

The Mind=spirit that is developing within the great androgynous body of mankind from the information that is taken in through the living receptors of that body in which the only begotten Son of God is developing, must experience three baptisms, the baptism of water, which he went through as Enoch, the only man recorded in the Bible who was carried to the very throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation and anointed as the successor to the throne of the Most High, which is the throne of the Godhead to the body of mankind, the Most High in the physical creation and Lord of creatures, where HIS mortal and corruptible body was translated from a body of corruptible matter, to a glorious body of eternal and incorruptible, unapproachable light.

At the beginning of his evolution, the body of Adam was submerged in the baptismal waters of the earth, and his chosen successor Enoch, the living evolving spirit in all the children who are descended from his six sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion, and Giadad, was the chosen body to come up from those waters, then in his evolution to the ends of time, while developing upon the righteous spirits of man, was later seen as the man Jesus, who was the external image of the indwelling ancestral Enoch as he was at that point in time of his evolution to the ends of all things, where he witnessed the universe disappear as it burnt up and fell as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in heights and depth into the great Abyss=Black Hole, which Enoch described as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which there was nothing, not even the firmament=space in which the universe had once existed.

Enoch as Jesus, the external earthly reflection of the evolving godhead within, at that point in the time of his ascension, then experienced the baptism of Blood.

John 19: 34; Then one of the soldiers, however, plunged his spear into Jesus side, and at once Blood and Water poured out, etc.

His death was the expression of the blood that would be spilt by HIS body of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who went to their deaths like lambs to the slaughter.

It was to the living spirit of Enoch, in the bosom of Abraham, to whom had been gathered all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness, after paying the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they had made in the flesh, who had been judged in the flesh as all are judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the living spirit of Enoch in the bosom of Abraham, over whom the second death has no power.

Isaiah 57: 1; Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they die no calamity can hurt them. (2) Those who lead good lives, find peace and rest in death.

Unlike the unrighteous rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where Lazarus is at rest in the bosom of Abraham, while the unrighteous rich man, suffering in mental torment, awaits his unknown future, and being a disembodied mind-spirit, with no senses to gather more of the information that he thirsts for, by which information, he might learn what lays ahead, he cries out in his terrible torment for someone to quench that terrible and endless thirst with the living waters of life=information from which the mind can continue to evolve.

[D I. Wrote]......... Just my thoughts for whatever they might be worth.

IMHO, Your written words are your thoughts that emanate from the decomposing mind that is YOU who believes there is no hope beyond the death of its body, which is not "At your age" to far in the little future that you believe lays before you.

But I thank you for not being true to your word , and have not ignored me, which gives me the chance to reveal Just how ignorant to God's word are those who have rejected/abandoned, the God of the Bible.