protestantism vs catholicism

[kegger]

I'd like to hear from some protestants on this. I'd like to discuss the merits of protestantism. I've talked to friends who are devout protestants and none have coherent answers on why they feel protestantism is valid. sola scriptura was never part of the church until luther. faith alone salvation was never part of chruch belief until luther. their bigget gripes are about praying to saints and"mary worship". people prayed to saints from 1 to 1500 ad! luther ended all that for his followers. the bible was unchanged for 1000 yrs + until luther took books out! so it all hinges on luther who was by his own admission a drunk , adulterous, neurotic megalomaniacal antisemitic heretic. i dont get it. please explain. ill grant u church leadership needed reform. but thats way different from his treason. have you protestants actually read his writings? blasphemous! its funny how many denominations have distanced themselves from him and yet still cling to the sola scriptura, faith alone justification, abridged bible that he all made up! what am i missing?

[Divine Insight]

Would you be prepared to stand before a gathering of the members of the neo-pagan witchcraft religion, and demand that they, like yourself, deny that their belief can be considered a religion? I think not.

I'm not prepared to support any of your Christian hatred.

You have been placed on ignore precisely because I have no desire to bother with hateful people. But you continually quote my posts and make up filthy lies about me on a personal level placing me into a position where I need to renounce your hateful accusations that are a direct personal attack against me on a personal level every time

I've reported you repeatedly but the mods don't seem to be willing to give you anything beyond mild warnings that you totally ignore as if they had never been issued.

I couldn't care less about your totally misguided ideas of Wicca, or me. I also have no need to defend 'Wicca' as an officially recognized 'religion'. That ideal is totally irrelevant to me. I personally do not support organized religion in any form. So your insinuations on that level are totally misguided as well.

In short you don't even appear to have the capability of comprehending even the simplest conversations, you appear to be so blinded by personal hatred that you can't see past that.

You haven't addressed any "Debate" that I can see.

Making filthy slanderous lies about me on a personal level and calling that a "Debate" only goes to show your own ignorance.

There's nothing to debate. Every accusation and and misguided notion that you have claimed about me is nothing more than your own personal delusions.

So what's to debate?

This isn't a debate. All this amounts to is you making up filthy lies about me and expecting me to respond to them.

I've already told you.

1. I have never "abandoned" any real God. Contrary to your lies.

2. I do not view Wicca as a "religion" yet apparently you do, and you try to push your views onto me when in fact they don't apply to me.

3. I do not see Wicca as being a dogmatic religion. Yet everything you post is coming entirely from a mindset of someone who is attempting to push dogma onto Wicca.

4. You're ideas on "Wicca" are so alien and foreign to mine that there is nothing to debate with you.

In short you are attempting to RAM your views of what you think Wicca ought to be down my throat.

I do not accept nor support your views, plan and simple.

Moreover, I had made it perfectly clear many posts ago that I practice "Solitary Wicca". This is a concept that is even quite controversial among many different authors who write about "Wicca".

For you to pretend that you have some kind of handle on some absolute form of "Dogmatic Wicca" is laughable. Even the Wiccans themselves are not in agreement on that.

This would be like you being a Christian Mormon trying to tell a Catholic what Catholicism must be. Although in that case at least the two of you could argue over your dogmatic "Holy Scriptures".

There are no dogmatic "Holy Scriptures" in Wicca to even argue over.

You are attempting to reduce Wicca to the same kind of dogma that you worship, but Wicca isn't based on dogma.

Can you point me to the "Wicca Holy Bible"?

I'm certain that you can't. If you point to any web sites that lay claim to having such a document those websites themselves are in blatant violation of the very principle that Wicca is "non-dogmatic".

So all you've been doing is using a very narrow-minded view of religions in general and trying to create an imaginary and clearly false impression that Wicca is an extremely dogmatic religion that must adhere to website that you personally have chosen to surf.

There is no substance or truth to any of your hateful claims.

Like I say, all you've done is demonstrate your own total frustration and inability to respond to the absurdities and self-contradictory nature of the Christian Dogma.

And Christianity is indeed founded entirely on dogma. It's based upon the "Holy Bible" which is dogma. You can't rewrite it, and you can't defend what's in it. So in a gross display of frustration you pretend that other religions are dogmatic and try to show that they are equally absurd.

Even if you accomplished that feat all you would have done is shows that all religions are equally absurd.

So you haven't accomplished a single solitary thing in this thread other than displaying your own personal frustration of being totally unable to make any sense out of the Christian dogma.

Lashing out at other religions and attacking individuals on a personal basis has done nothing for your case. All you've done is exhibit total frustration Thus demonstrating that you have nothing positive to offer and you are totally out of bullets as far as any genuine debates are concerned.

You clearly cannot support your own dogma.

That's truly sad.

[The Tongue]

[Replying to post 61 by Divine Insight]

[D I. Wrote]....................................I'm not prepared to support any of your Christian hatred.
You have been placed on ignore precisely because I have no desire to bother with hateful people.

And this post of yours in response to my previous post, is your idea of ignoring me is it? You cant even be trusted to keep your own word. You cannot ignore me, apparently, my power over you is just too strong.

[D I. Wrote]....................................I have never "abandoned" any real God. Contrary to your lies.

According to your own words, when you said that you dont know if a god exists, at best, you MIGHT believe that a god MAY exist, but if he does, apparently He has no intention of revealing himself to a god hater such as you have revealed yourself to be.

But as a young Christian you admitted that you were totally devoted to the God as revealed in the holy scriptures, who at that stage of your life, for whatever reasons, believed that the bible was the word of God, who you believed was the father of Jesus, which belief you have now abandoned for no god and no religion.

[D I. Wrote]....................................I do not view Wicca as a "religion" yet apparently you do, and you try to push your views onto me when in fact they don't apply to me.

Yes I do believe that wicca is a religion, but I also believe that organised atheism is a religion, not that I would have anything to do with either of those religions and we all know that religions and gods do not apply to you, who have no god and no religion, as you have so confessed.

[D I. Wrote]....... I don't bother with "religion" at all. For me "Wicca" isn't a religion,

But to all the true members of wicca, it is a religion, and the last person that they would want in their religion, IMO, is one like you, who states that wicca is not a bona fide religious belief entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII.

[D I. Wrote]....... These fables necessarily have to be nothing more than the absurd superstitions of a culture that clearly did not have very good moral values themselves.

You condemn the people who worship the God of the bible, who you once believed in, as belonging to a culture which believes in absurd superstitions and do not have very good moral values, while YOU with your high and mighty moral values, go out of your way to deliberately offend those millions of people, by describing their God as as "a blundering idiot, who is dumber than rocks and a jealous raving lunatic."

[D I. Wrote]....... I've reported you repeatedly but the mods don't seem to be willing to give you anything beyond mild warnings, etc.

So what does that tell you about the mods attitude to your incessant complaints against the responses to your posts of personal insult to all believers of the biblical God, by describing their belief as nothing more than absurd superstitions and accusing them as being of low moral values and their God as "a blundering idiot, who is dumber than rocks and a jealous raving lunatic."

[D I. Wrote]....... I do not see Wicca as being a dogmatic religion.

You dont see wicca as being any sort of religion, unlike true members of the pagan witchcraft bona fide religion of wicca who are entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII.

[D I. Wrote]....... Moreover, I had made it perfectly clear many posts ago that I practice "Solitary Wicca".

"Solitary Wicca" may be accepted as a tradition of the wicca religion by the wicca witches, but the "Solitary Wicca" that you supposedly practise, which according to you, is not a religion or an accepted recognised religious belief, would not be accepted as a tradition within the wicca RELIGION, by the true members of the wicca RELIGION.

[D I. Wrote]....... For you to pretend that you have some kind of handle on some absolute form of "Dogmatic Wicca" is laughable.

I dont PRETEND that the true members of the pagan witchcraft RELIGION are dogmatic in their belief that their fellowship is a RELIGION which is under the protection of the First Amendment or Title VII, I KNOW that for a fact, and I believe that they have no desire to be infiltrated by truth twisting liars, who proclaim that wicca is not a RELIGION, and therefore cannot be under the protection of the First Amendment or Title VII.

[D I. Wrote]....... Lashing out at other religions and attacking individuals on a personal basis has done nothing for your case.

And this comes from the one who said that they were ignoring everything I have to say, the one who has launched its personal attack on all believers of any god and especially the believers of the biblical God, by describing their belief as nothing more than absurd superstitions and accusing them as being of low moral values and their God as a blundering idiot, who is dumber than rocks and a jealous raving lunatic: who denies all religions and doesnt know whether a god even exists .

[D I. Wrote]....... Thus demonstrating that you have nothing positive to offer and you are totally out of bullets as far as any genuine debates are concerned.

Keep ignoring me with your continuing attacking and insulting responses to my posts, and you will see just how many bullets I have, bullets that you yourself have made in your multitude of contradictory statements, all I have to do, is fire them right back at you.

[Divine Insight]

And this post of yours in response to my previous post, is your idea of ignoring me is it? You cant even be trusted to keep your own word. You cannot ignore me, apparently, my power over you is just too strong.

Where did I ever "promise" to ignore you?

I simply tried using an "Ignore Feature" on a web site that clearly doesn't do any good. Even though I had used that feature I still get emails that you've quoted my posts, and see the filthy lies that you spread about me on a personal basis.

All you've been doing in this entire thread is making personal attacks against me as an individual. Why the mods allow this to continue is beyond me.

I'm not attacking you on a personal level, other than to refute your slanderous person lies about me.

I've never stated anything about you on a personal level when it comes to religion. All of your hatred toward me obviously comes directly from the mere fact that you don't like the fact that I personally think the Bible is ignorant and riddled with blatant contradictions, all of which I have shown to be true to the point where you can't even refute them. Thus your need to resort to personal slander precisely because you can't even apologize for the Bible.

Besides this is actually fun. You keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper. All the mud you've been trying to sling at me is coming right back at ya fella.

[D I. Wrote]....................................I have never "abandoned" any real God. Contrary to your lies.

According to your own words, when you said that you dont know if a god exists, at best, you MIGHT believe that a god MAY exist,

Well, excuse me for being an honest man.

If you claim to know that a God exists then I'll chalk you up to a total fruitcake.

Religion is a faith-based ideal. I totally accept this. Apparently you cannot cope with that reality.

but if he does, apparently He has no intention of revealing himself to a god hater such as you have revealed yourself to be.

More of your vile hatred toward me.

I don't hate God, but clearly you hate me. And you're hated toward me is quite ugly. And apparently you don't intend to ever quit your making up your slanderous lies against. How ironic that you end your posts stating that you'll come back and spread more filthy lies against me "God Willing".

But as a young Christian you admitted that you were totally devoted to the God as revealed in the holy scriptures,

No I never made any such claim, that's your own false misguided notion of my position and has absolutely nothing to do with me.

I'm the one who will state what my position is, not you.

who at that stage of your life, for whatever reasons, believed that the bible was the word of God, who you believed was the father of Jesus, which belief you have now abandoned for no god and no religion.

You are jumping to totally false and unwarranted conclusions. None of which are true.

As I had already made it clear religion is a faith-based ideal. Something you evidently cannot comprehend.

What happened is that I was duped by my own parents and other adults. I was literally lie to as a child by adults who claim to "know" something that they cannot know. They even confess later in life that they in fact do not know and it's all a matter of faith.

They told me that the Bible was the "Word of God". And it was "Their Word" that I placed my faith in. Not the words of the Bible. After all that would be impossible because at that point in time I hadn't yet read the Bible for myself.

When I actually started reading the Bible is when I realized that it can't possibly be true. So in that sense there was never a time when I actually "believed in the Bible".

In fact, that's true about probably 99.9% of most Christians. There was a study done once that showed that atheists actually know more about the Christian Bible than most Christians do.

Over the years I've seen many Christians become totally shocked by many of the things I've revealed to them about the Bible that they had no clue was in even in the book. For example, you might be surprised at how many Christians have no clue that the Jews were "God's chosen people". They are taken aback by that and scream that God doesn't play favorites. Guess again!

The reason why most Christians believe in Christianity is precisely because they have no clue what's actually in the Bible. Like my early childhood they accepted the words of their parent and church clergy and never bothered to look into the fables for themselves.

So you're gross misunderstanding of my position, and misrepresentations of me is totally false. All you're doing is creating a picture in your mind of what you would like to believe about me and the spewing that out on these boards proclaiming that its true when in fact it's not.

So you're spreading slanderous lies about me even if it's only due to your own misguided inability to actually comprehend the truth. It's still lies.

In short, you don't speak for me, and you aren't even supposed to be attacking other members of the forum on a personal basis. You're basically calling me a liar concerning my own position on things.

And that my friend is totally corrupt and improper on your part.

I have not "rejected" any God, and as you continue to spread those lies about me you are refusing to accept my position on things.

You have no right to slander me when I'm right here telling you repeatedly that you are a liar. Everything you state about me is nothing more than you own personal slanderous lies. And all because you are frustrated that you can't argue against my observations of how utterly absurd and self-contradictory the Bible actually is.

[D I. Wrote]....................................I do not view Wicca as a "religion" yet apparently you do, and you try to push your views onto me when in fact they don't apply to me.

Yes I do believe that wicca is a religion, but I also believe that organised atheism is a religion, not that I would have anything to do with either of those religions and we all know that religions and gods do not apply to you, who have no god and no religion, as you have so confessed.

There you go again telling me what I supposedly believe.

I have stated repeatedly and consistently since I first joined this forum that I don't view Wicca as a religion, and that I also don't support any form of organized religion.

All you are doing with your vile accusations against me is exposing your own limited ability to think outside or your tiny Abrahamic box.

I don't view Taoism or Buddhism as "religions" either. For me they are spiritual philosophies, created by men based on their experiences in life. And that's what they are.

The Hebrew Bible, on the other hand, is not a philosophy at all. On the contrary, all it amounts to is the superstitious rumors of a male-chauvinistic society who created an imaginary "Zeus-like" male Godhead and pretended that he was telling them to do all the immoral things that they did.

Now that is a "religion" and clearly not a philosophy. It's a religion that the Hebrews created using the Greek Zeus as a foundational template. They just made their God highly jealous and male-chauvinistic. And instead of making him the "God of Gods" they proclaimed that he's the only God with the self-contradictory stipulation that he's "Jealous" of all these other Gods that supposedly don't even exist.

All the Hebrew Bible amounts to is a historical record of how a highly immoral society tried to obtain a copyright on God.

And that's what most of the religions of the Middle East and Mediterranean region did. They were all trying to outdo each other by creating the Top God to even surpass the Greek's Zeus who was the "God of Gods".

And just look at the people who have fallen victim to those religions. They are still trying proclaim that their version of this God is above all other versions.

You're using your version of these jealous-God fables in an attempt to try to condemn me for worshiping the "Wrong God".

How utterly absurd is that?

If there is only ONE GOD, then clearly it would be impossible to worship or honor the "Wrong God" because there would be no "wrong Gods" to worship.

So when you proclaim that I'm worshiping the "wrong God" all you're doing is demanding that there are indeed other Gods besides the jealous hateful God that you attempt to use to spread hatred toward me on a personal level.

Where have I ever spread any hatred toward you in the name of a Moon Goddess or any other notion of a God?

I'm quite sure I haven't done that. I never use spirituality to belittle other people on a personal level.

The only negative accusations I make about you are to call you are the slanderous lies that you make-up and spread about me. And you even refuse to quit doing it even though I have repeatedly exposed your ignorance on the matter.

You don't even begin to comprehend my position on things because you are apparently to absorbed with hating me in the name of the Hebrew Jealous God Character.

And you, my friend, are a perfect example of precisely how hateful and underhanded that religion can cause people to be.

Can you even admit that you are wrong? I doubt it. You'll most likely continue to spread filthy lies about me even after you've been told repeatedly that this is precisely what you are doing.

This is why I renounce the Abraham religions. They cause people to become relentlessly hateful toward anyone who doesn't support their version of the religion.

Do you hate the Jews too because they also refuse to accept that Jesus was "The Christ"?

[D I. Wrote]....... I don't bother with "religion" at all. For me "Wicca" isn't a religion,

But to all the true members of wicca, it is a religion, and the last person that they would want in their religion, IMO, is one like you, who states that wicca is not a bona fide religious belief entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII.

Fine. I have no problem with that.

I'll take that up with them if they ever bring it up.

Clearly you are not aware of the "World of Wicca". If you were aware of it you'd know that there is much controversy and diverse opinions concerning Wicca just like all other "organized religions".

And yes, I recognize that there are those who feel that it's important to have their spiritual beliefs recognized by a government or society to be an "Official Religion".

Do you have any clue what that's so important to people? It's important to them precisely because of the jealous-God Abrahamic religions that would claim total ownership of and copyright on God if governments and societies didn't also recognize other religions to be "official Religions".

I'm not even concerned about such petty immature games that people play in the name of their religions and gods.

That's the very type of thing we need to move away from.

If you want to worship the jealous God of the Hebrews, please be my guest. Why should you need for that to be branded "official" by anyone?

Moreover, you have been publicly renouncing Wicca as basically being "not of God", and now you are ironically appealing to the ideal that it's an "officially recognized religion".

Make up your mind.

One minute you are refuting it altogether as being "ungodly" and the next minute you are arguing that it's an "Official Religion".

I think you are demonstrating very nicely why we would be far better off to just respecting everyone's personal spirituality and doing away with the concept of "official religions".

Clearly you have no respect for Wicca, even thought you claim that it represents an "Official Religion".

So where did that get anyone?

It's wasted effort.

[D I. Wrote]....... These fables necessarily have to be nothing more than the absurd superstitions of a culture that clearly did not have very good moral values themselves.

You condemn the people who worship the God of the bible, who you once believed in, as belonging to a culture which believes in absurd superstitions and do not have very good moral values, while YOU with your high and mighty moral values, go out of your way to deliberately offend those millions of people, by describing their God as as "a blundering idiot, who is dumber than rocks and a jealous raving lunatic."

Oh please.

How hypocritical of you.

Look at you, all you've been doing since we've met is attempt to condemn me for not believing in your religion. That was the very reason I had placed you on ignore months ago.

Christianity is well-known for it's proselyting, evangelizing, and condemnation of anyone who refuses to worship Jesus as an idol image of the God Almighty.

They renounce all other religions as being false religions worshiping false gods, etc. And that's clearly a insult to all those other religion.

Yet if someone suggests that the Hebrew mythology is too utterly absurd to possibly be true you claim "FOUL" and claim to be personally offended.

This very tactic is what has kept the Abrahamic Religions going for as long as they have been going.

Christians proselytize and evangelize their religion to other people demanding that they must either accept it or be branded an immoral heathens who have willfully and knowingly "rejected God". And then when these other people explain why they don't buy into the constant Christian proselyting the Christians scream "FOUL".

That right there is an extremely underhanded tactic that should be outlawed, IMHO.

If you demand that I should believe in the Bible, then you have opened the door for me to explain to you precisely why I reject those myths as being utterly absurd, immoral, and yes, quite moronic.

It is my opinion and assessment that the God portrayed in the Hebrew fables would necessarily need to be a blundering idiot whose dumber than rocks and it's crystal clear that he's a jealous raving lunatic.

Even you seem to be extremely jealous about the fact that I'm not cowering down to the Hebrew God.

That jealous nature of your religion is precisely what make it so pathetic.

And here you are in this thread bringing the hateful jealous aspect of your religion into high relief for everyone to see.

You can't handle the idea that someone might actually have a different view concerning spirituality.

It's bad enough that you use your religion to belittle and condemn atheists, but just look at how much more hateful you can be toward someone who might simply have a different view on spirituality and the nature of God.

The hatefulness of your religion stems directly from the "Jealous God" that you claim will hate everyone who doesn't "Worship Him".

And then you act like I'm the one who has transformed your God into a jealous raving lunatic. I think you do that quite profoundly on your own.

[D I. Wrote]....... I've reported you repeatedly but the mods don't seem to be willing to give you anything beyond mild warnings, etc.

So what does that tell you about the mods attitude to your incessant complaints against the responses to your posts of personal insult to all believers of the biblical God, by describing their belief as nothing more than absurd superstitions and accusing them as being of low moral values and their God as "a blundering idiot, who is dumber than rocks and a jealous raving lunatic."

I think they've just been in a good mood lately and have been decided to be tolerate of your personal attacks for some reason. Possibly they are letting this go because they can see that I can handle you without returning your same personal attacks.

I have no hatred toward you as a person. I don't even know you. I'm just refuting your personal slanderous remarks against me.

I have no clue if you a moral person or an immoral person. I make no judgements on you on a personal level.

If you want to worship Jesus as God, and believe that the Old Testament is the "Word of God" please by my guest.

You don't really need my permission or consent do you?

I'm going to continue to practice my Wicca rituals. I certainly don't need your permission, nor do I even care what you think because I know all your thoughts are false anyway. You have no clue what you are even talking about when it comes to my personal spirituality.

You are the one who is out to condemn me in the name of your God remember?

I'm not out to condemn you. I had placed you on ignore.

The only reason I'm even responding to you at all is because you continually quote my posts and make up lies about me.

Stop doing that and our conversations will cease.

[D I. Wrote]....... I do not see Wicca as being a dogmatic religion.

You dont see wicca as being any sort of religion, unlike true members of the pagan witchcraft bona fide religion of wicca who are entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII.

I'm not concerned about that. I don't practice Wicca rituals because some government claims to have made it an "official religion".

I don't need any government to condone my spirituality. I was drawn to "Wicca" for reasons far beyond the tiny box that you are attempting to place it in.

In fact, if anything I'll confess that "Wicca" might not even be an officially applicable term to use. I'm not hung up on labels. I use the term "Wicca" for the sake of attempting to convey the general idea of my spirituality to people who might be interested. That's the only reason I even bother with the term at all.

I'm not concerned with labels and religious prejudices or with Governmental seals of approval.

What I practices is are spiritual rituals, traditions, and paradigms that have history that goes back as far as 50,000 as revealed by cave art. I'm not concerned with any modern-day governmental seal of approval for rituals that date back to the dawn of mankind.

Apparently you are the one who is concerned with arguing about the "validity" of so-called religions.

So you are arguing about things that don't even concern me at all.

[D I. Wrote]....... Moreover, I had made it perfectly clear many posts ago that I practice "Solitary Wicca".

"Solitary Wicca" may be accepted as a tradition of the wicca religion by the wicca witches, but the "Solitary Wicca" that you supposedly practise, which according to you, is not a religion or an accepted recognised religious belief, would not be accepted as a tradition within the wicca RELIGION, by the true members of the wicca RELIGION.

"True members of the Wicca"?

You're looking at Wicca entirely through a Christian lens.

As with anything, I'm sure you could find small groups of "Wiccans" who will argue that only their version of Wicca has credibility whilst all other "Wiccans" are fake wannabes. I've met such people myself.

But that's not the majority view of Wicca. Most Wiccans are totally open to accepting a wide range of beliefs and paradigms. And this is why I prefer to use the term "Solitary Wicca".

There are underlying structures that define Wicca, but beyond those underlying structures there is no concrete dogma. There is no Wiccan Holy Bible that claims to be the "Word of God" or even "The Word of Wicca". An exception to this may be the "Gardenarian Wiccans" who seem to like to worship Gerald Gardner's personal Book of Shadows.

I don't care about Gerald Gardner's Book of Shadows. That does not define "Wicca" for me. I don't use it. But I do confess that Gardner's work is what led up to the governmental and social acceptance and seal of approval to make "Wicca' an officially recognized religion.

But since that time "Wicca" has taken on a life of its own via the many books that have been written on the subject.

I'm not concerned with all of this. But you are trying to put Wicca into a tiny well-defined box, that you would personally like to define as being highly immoral and ungodly.

And again, this all stems from your desperate need to preserve the jealously of the Hebrew God.

That's all you're barking about.

[D I. Wrote]....... For you to pretend that you have some kind of handle on some absolute form of "Dogmatic Wicca" is laughable.

I dont PRETEND that the true members of the pagan witchcraft RELIGION are dogmatic in their belief that their fellowship is a RELIGION which is under the protection of the First Amendment or Title VII, I KNOW that for a fact, and I believe that they have no desire to be infiltrated by truth twisting liars, who proclaim that wicca is not a RELIGION, and therefore cannot be under the protection of the First Amendment or Title VII.

You're talking about POLITICS. And this is precisely why I totally renounce the very concept of "Organized Religions" or "Government approved religions'.

I don't bother with those childish petty arguments. I'm interested in spirituality, not dogfights over who gave their approval to which labels.

You're arguments are entirely divisive. You're trying to put religions into tiny well-defined boxes so you can try to shoot them all down like ducks in a row.

I don't support that kind of mentality. Sorry.

[D I. Wrote]....... Lashing out at other religions and attacking individuals on a personal basis has done nothing for your case.

And this comes from the one who said that they were ignoring everything I have to say, the one who has launched its personal attack on all believers of any god and especially the believers of the biblical God, by describing their belief as nothing more than absurd superstitions and accusing them as being of low moral values and their God as a blundering idiot, who is dumber than rocks and a jealous raving lunatic: who denies all religions and doesnt know whether a god even exists .

I haven't launched any "Personal Attack" against anyone.

What I do is respond to the constant and relentless proselytism and evangelism and accusations of "rejecting the Bible God" that are ceaselessly spewed at me even after I have already made it clear that I'm happy with my own spirituality and my own relationship with "God".

The mere fact that Christians continually preach to me after I have already made it clear that I'm already in good with God via my own spirituality is their outright accusation that my spirituality has no merit.

So they have already offended my spirituality by refusing to even recognize it as being a valid spirituality.

So since they refuse to stop their relentless accusations against me I respond by pointing out precisely why I have rejected the Biblical account of God as being totally absurd fables.

That is just a rational and reasonable response. After all if they are trying to convince me to believe in something should I have the right to explain to them why I have rejected it as having no merit?

I explain to you why I don't buy into the Bible and you scream "FOUL".

That's utter nonsense.

I reject the Biblical fables because IMHO, they are the stupidest and most immortal fables ever written. They claim that our creator is utterly stupid, jealous, and hateful.

Don't like that?

Too bad.

That is my honest and sincere view. If you don't want to hear my views on this then quite accusing me of "rejecting" you stupid jealous God.

It's that simple Tongue.

As long as you continue to use your jealous God as a weapon of spiritual hatred I'll continue to tell you how utterly stupid I think the notion of a jealous hateful God truly is.

Show me where your religion can act intelligently and respectfully toward people of other spiritual faiths and we can get along.

But as long as you are hell-bend on using your jealous God to condemn everyone who doesn't believe in him then I'll continue to tell you why I reject that entire notion.

[D I. Wrote]....... Thus demonstrating that you have nothing positive to offer and you are totally out of bullets as far as any genuine debates are concerned.

Keep ignoring me with your continuing attacking and insulting responses to my posts, and you will see just how many bullets I have, bullets that you yourself have made in your multitude of contradictory statements, all I have to do, is fire them right back at you.

I'm sure you would love to have some bullets. But so far all you've been firing is blanks.

All you are doing is trying to spread hatred toward me on a personal level using your jealous hateful God as a weapon.

How long do you intend to keep this up?

Cease quoting me and making up filthy lies about me, and I'll quit responding.

In the meantime I'm actually enjoying this. You continually stick your own foot in your own mouth. Shooting you down has been a piece of cake.

You should know better than to try to use religion to spread hatred toward other people. This is precisely why I renounce the Abrahamic religions in the first place.

You are a perfect example of what's wrong with your religion.

[The Tongue]

[Replying to post 63 by Divine Insight]

[D I. Wrote]......... Where did I ever "promise" to ignore you?

Dont you remember you poor thing? Are you suffering from Alzheimers disease or some other mental disorder that is causing you to lose your memory and keep contradicting your own words?

Post #61: [D I. wrote]......You have been placed on ignore precisely because I have no desire to bother with hateful people.

Then in post #63, you wrote: "I'm not out to condemn you. I had placed you on ignore. "

Well mate, you could have fooled everyone on this forum. If this is your idea of ignoring someone, I'd hate to see what you mean be being receptive to someone.

But putting all that aside, the wife and I have just finished loading the van, and we are leaving in the dark hours of the morning for a trip with our grandsons, so I havent the time to respond in full your extremely boring and lengthy post of continuous repetitive accusations, but I will do so in a weeks time or thereabouts, God Willing.

Knowing that you cannot ignore the power that I seem to hold over you, I expect you to be waiting with baited breath for my return, and so, until I return, I would advise you to seek medical help for you memory problem.

Love ya mate.

[otseng]

Dont you remember you poor thing? Are you suffering from Alzheimers disease or some other mental disorder that is causing you to lose your memory and keep contradicting your own words?

Knowing that you cannot ignore the power that I seem to hold over you, I expect you to be waiting with baited breath for my return, and so, until I return, I would advise you to seek medical help for you memory problem.

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[kayky]

Why I Am Not a Catholic:

1. I don't like the idea of someone (such as the Pope) telling me what I can and cannot believe.

2. I am a woman. I could never be part of an organization that excluded me from any office or activity open to men.

3. I like gay people. I think God does too.

4. I believe that outlawing birth control on an overpopulated planet is a crime against humanity.

5. Although I love the Bible, I do not believe it is the literal, inerrant word of God.

Other than that I love everything about Catholicism. That's why I'm an Episcopalian.

[Divine Insight]

Why I Am Not a Catholic:

1. I don't like the idea of someone (such as the Pope) telling me what I can and cannot believe.

2. I am a woman. I could never be part of an organization that excluded me from any office or activity open to men.

3. I like gay people. I think God does too.

4. I believe that outlawing birth control on an overpopulated planet is a crime against humanity.

5. Although I love the Bible, I do not believe it is the literal, inerrant word of God.

I feel much the same way you do. Including #5. The Bible is a cute fairy tale if not taken too seriously and if we pretend that all the nasty things that God did to people in the biblical stories those nasty people actually deserved it.

One thing I've come to realize is that there are many people who would actually like to see criminals tortured and suffer for their crimes. I tend to feel that even many criminals are nothing more than mentally ill people. While I could hardly condone or allow them to walk free and continue their life of crime, I'm not anxious to see them suffer for their crimes either. If I were to put a criminal to death it would be a mercy killing to protect the rest of society, not a means of "punishing" the criminal.

So there are certain aspects of the Bible that I have problems with. But overall it can be a cute fairytale.

Other than that I love everything about Catholicism. That's why I'm an Episcopalian.

I've heard many Wiccans say the same things. Much of Catholicism is actually based on the very same rituals as Wicca is. The only difference is that in Catholicism only the priests are allowed to wield the magic and play with all the ritual tools. In Wicca you become the priest or priestess. You do the magic spells, the smudging with incense, the making of Holy Water, etc.

So in a sense I like these rituals too, I just prefer to do them myself rather than having some priest do them for me. They are basically the same rituals.

What do people think those priests are doing when they walk around waving their little incense burners at people? That's a witchcraft smudging ritual. The smoke of the incense is believed to spiritually cleanse the area of all negative vibrations and spirits.

We do that all the time in Wicca. It's a very common practice. It didn't come from Catholicism. On the contrary this was a pagan ritual long before Catholicism ever came to be. Smudging with smoke to spiritually cleans an area is common to many types of Shamanism worldwide. Including many of the Eastern Mysticisms.

So yes, a lot of people like the rituals behind "Catholicism" because those rituals are actually the core of many spiritual beliefs. And worshiping Mother Mary is very much the same as worshiping a Moon Goddess. In fact, there are actually quite a few modern day "Catholic Wiccans" who actually view the Moon Goddess and Mother Mary to be one in the same.

To me, to even speak about a "Christian Wiccan" or "Catholic Wiccan" seemed like a total paradox. But surprise surprise! There are indeed many people who lay claim to that combination of spirituality. There are in fact "Wiccans" who believe that Jesus was the Son of God. And they still don't see any problem combining that with Wicca.

[kayky]

Well, I don't think the Bible is a "cute fairy tale." It is a collection of literary works of various genres: myths, legends, historical narrative, poetry, allegory, and so on. It is a book that has been declared sacred by the Christian community, and that gives its words power within the context of Christian liturgy. I do believe that within its sometimes convoluted and evolving record of a human understanding of God there is to be found by the discerning eye an authentic path to our true identity in God--not that it is the only authentic path, however.

[Divine Insight]

Well, I don't think the Bible is a "cute fairy tale." It is a collection of literary works of various genres: myths, legends, historical narrative, poetry, allegory, and so on. It is a book that has been declared sacred by the Christian community, and that gives its words power within the context of Christian liturgy.

Well, I supposed you're right in the sense that it's a collection of literary works of various genres: myths, legends, historical narrative, poetry, allegory, and so on. But in a sense that is a "fairy tale". It's just one that evolved alongside a culture rather than one that had been entirely the fabrication of a single author.

The same thing is true of all cultures that had their mythological stories.

Well I call them "Fairy Tales" that isn't mean to degrade them. I actually place much value in the type of "Fairy Tales" that evolve through cultural lore. In fact, I think that European Fairy Lore is a prime example of cultural "Fairy Tales" that are recognize both for their historical and cultural value as well as their legendary status.

I really enjoy the Fair Tale of the creation of the universe by the Pixies. In fact, I use that Fairy Tale as the focal point of opening all of my circle rituals. I'm totally aware that it is indeed a Fairy Tale. I'm sure that Pixies were not involved in the creation of the universe. But this Fairy Tale has value in analogy. And that's what makes it worthy of preserving.

I think there is much value in the stories of the Greek Gods and Goddesses too. All of those stories reflect human nature and man's relationship to life as a whole.

I do believe that within its sometimes convoluted and evolving record of a human understanding of God there is to be found by the discerning eye an authentic path to our true identity in God--not that it is the only authentic path, however.

I'll agree with that. There are many parables in the Biblical Cannon that can help people to better understand their place in the larger scheme of things. But that's true of all cultural legends and myths.

And it's truly amazing how different people take away totally different things from the same stories.

For example, take the story of Noah and the Flood. When I read that story I identified with Noah. So what I got from the story is that no matter how horrible the world seems to be God will always save me. When things seem to be getting truly out of hand God will grant me a life raft (i.e. the Ark) and flush away all the evils of the world. So for me, the story was about Noah, and Noah represents me.

Other people seem to take away from this story that if they continue to behave in their evil ways God will flush them off the face of the planet.

So I guess, much of what we take away from these stories depends on which characters we identify with.

The same is true of the New Testament. When I read that I can only identify with Jesus. He's the only character in that story that I can identify with. Therefore it's hard for me to even begin to imagine that I would be at odds with the very character that I identify with.

It's truly amazing to me that most other people seem to take away from that story that they are somehow at odds with Jesus and need to repent their evil ways. I think the Churches have a lot to do with creating that negative image.

People are taught that they are at odds with Jesus, not that they are in harmony with him. In fact, they are often taught that if anyone even thinks they are in harmony with Jesus they are being extremely arrogant to think that they could be that good.

Nothing like a religion that demands that people can't be good. I could never see the positive value in that.

But something we certainly agree on is your last statement:

-- not that it is the only authentic path, however.

Well, there are many Christians who would scream to high heaven with extreme disapproval of your comment on that.

They demand that "Jesus is the Only Way" and anything short of that is "fight'in words". They feel compelled to argue that Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lord, the ONLY WAY to God any they are prepared to die (and sometimes to even kill) to defend that view.

Anything short of a total confession that Jesus is LORD is almost grounds for a Holy War. In fact, at various times in history it was grounds for a Holy War.

Today secular laws prevent religious zealots from organizing and conducting "Holy Wars" but you can bet your sweet bibby that there are "Christians" (or at least people who claim to be "Christians") who would indeed conduct such Holy Wars if they thought they could do it legally.

I've seen Christian Evangelists who have proclaimed that the Bible states that homosexuals are to be put to death and it's our duty to put them to death as God has instructed us to do.

If they were KING things would be quite different. They would then put their believes into LAW.

The only thing that stops them is the fact that most sane people aren't going to support that kind of thing.

And we can "Thank God" for that.

But then the question becomes, "Are we thanking the same God that these religious fanatics are pointing to in the Biblical Stories?"

The Bible does indeed claim that God commanded men to kill homosexuals.

And Jesus preached "Not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law till heaven and earth pass"

So now what do we do?

Ignore some parts of the Bible whilst pretending the rest might have something to do with a God?

Or renounce the whole shebang?

I clearly chose the latter as I personally see no way of maintaining the former in any consistent way. The Biblical stories are too self-contradictory. Thus we are forced to pick and choose if we want to cling to it, and that becomes extremely problematic.

How do you resolve these kinds of conflicts?

[TheTruth101]

Well, I don't think the Bible is a "cute fairy tale." It is a collection of literary works of various genres: myths, legends, historical narrative, poetry, allegory, and so on. It is a book that has been declared sacred by the Christian community, and that gives its words power within the context of Christian liturgy.

Well, I supposed you're right in the sense that it's a collection of literary works of various genres: myths, legends, historical narrative, poetry, allegory, and so on. But in a sense that is a "fairy tale". It's just one that evolved alongside a culture rather than one that had been entirely the fabrication of a single author.

The same thing is true of all cultures that had their mythological stories.

Well I call them "Fairy Tales" that isn't mean to degrade them. I actually place much value in the type of "Fairy Tales" that evolve through cultural lore. In fact, I think that European Fairy Lore is a prime example of cultural "Fairy Tales" that are recognize both for their historical and cultural value as well as their legendary status.

I really enjoy the Fair Tale of the creation of the universe by the Pixies. In fact, I use that Fairy Tale as the focal point of opening all of my circle rituals. I'm totally aware that it is indeed a Fairy Tale. I'm sure that Pixies were not involved in the creation of the universe. But this Fairy Tale has value in analogy. And that's what makes it worthy of preserving.

I think there is much value in the stories of the Greek Gods and Goddesses too. All of those stories reflect human nature and man's relationship to life as a whole.

I do believe that within its sometimes convoluted and evolving record of a human understanding of God there is to be found by the discerning eye an authentic path to our true identity in God--not that it is the only authentic path, however.

I'll agree with that. There are many parables in the Biblical Cannon that can help people to better understand their place in the larger scheme of things. But that's true of all cultural legends and myths.

And it's truly amazing how different people take away totally different things from the same stories.

For example, take the story of Noah and the Flood. When I read that story I identified with Noah. So what I got from the story is that no matter how horrible the world seems to be God will always save me. When things seem to be getting truly out of hand God will grant me a life raft (i.e. the Ark) and flush away all the evils of the world. So for me, the story was about Noah, and Noah represents me.

Other people seem to take away from this story that if they continue to behave in their evil ways God will flush them off the face of the planet.

So I guess, much of what we take away from these stories depends on which characters we identify with.

The same is true of the New Testament. When I read that I can only identify with Jesus. He's the only character in that story that I can identify with. Therefore it's hard for me to even begin to imagine that I would be at odds with the very character that I identify with.

It's truly amazing to me that most other people seem to take away from that story that they are somehow at odds with Jesus and need to repent their evil ways. I think the Churches have a lot to do with creating that negative image.

People are taught that they are at odds with Jesus, not that they are in harmony with him. In fact, they are often taught that if anyone even thinks they are in harmony with Jesus they are being extremely arrogant to think that they could be that good.

Nothing like a religion that demands that people can't be good. I could never see the positive value in that.

But something we certainly agree on is your last statement:

-- not that it is the only authentic path, however.

Well, there are many Christians who would scream to high heaven with extreme disapproval of your comment on that.

They demand that "Jesus is the Only Way" and anything short of that is "fight'in words". They feel compelled to argue that Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lord, the ONLY WAY to God any they are prepared to die (and sometimes to even kill) to defend that view.

Anything short of a total confession that Jesus is LORD is almost grounds for a Holy War. In fact, at various times in history it was grounds for a Holy War.

Today secular laws prevent religious zealots from organizing and conducting "Holy Wars" but you can bet your sweet bibby that there are "Christians" (or at least people who claim to be "Christians") who would indeed conduct such Holy Wars if they thought they could do it legally.

I've seen Christian Evangelists who have proclaimed that the Bible states that homosexuals are to be put to death and it's our duty to put them to death as God has instructed us to do.

If they were KING things would be quite different. They would then put their believes into LAW.

The only thing that stops them is the fact that most sane people aren't going to support that kind of thing.

And we can "Thank God" for that.

But then the question becomes, "Are we thanking the same God that these religious fanatics are pointing to in the Biblical Stories?"

The Bible does indeed claim that God commanded men to kill homosexuals.

And Jesus preached "Not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law till heaven and earth pass"

So now what do we do?

Ignore some parts of the Bible whilst pretending the rest might have something to do with a God?

Or renounce the whole shebang?

I clearly chose the latter as I personally see no way of maintaining the former in any consistent way. The Biblical stories are too self-contradictory. Thus we are forced to pick and choose if we want to cling to it, and that becomes extremely problematic.

How do you resolve these kinds of conflicts?

There isnt anything contradictory about the Bible to me. It is self explained and clear cut in my eyes really.