Non-Circular reasons for believing in the Bible.

[help3434]

I often see people quote Bible verses about scripture when asked why they believe in the Bible. Of course arguing that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true is circular. Are there any non-circular reasons for believing in the Bible?

[dianaiad]

This argument is a just plain dishonest cop out used to claim that the church really wasn't racist and really did not believe in polygamy because 'uh... now we have a new revelation' that says we were completely, 180 degrees wrong' and now, yielding to political pressure, "GOD" has given us an 'new' revelation, so we can fit in with the political powers that be and mainstream American Christianity.

Why, yes. We do believe in continuous revelation; that God has a hand in keeping things close to accuracy, so that when men DO go off the rails, He can pull us back, and we'll actually listen when He does.

Here's a true story that I've told before on this forum: I was flipping channels one day and almost skipped past a televangilist, when something he said caught my ear. What followed was THE most chilling (and influential in my own POV in this matter) incident I've had in my life. The guy picked up the bible, held it up in his hand then held it to his chest. He said "This Book is perfect; if Jesus Himself came down and told me personally that there was anything wrong, or inaccurate, about this book (and I have no idea which translation he was holding on to, mind you) I would turn my back on Him and hold to the book."

To call a book of scripture 'infallible,' and to say that modern, or continuing revelation is impossible, or....what did you call it...'a dishonest cop-out?" is to be an idolater and to accuse the believers of idolatry; of worshiping a book rather than the One who inspired it. Personally, if Jesus came down and told ME that there was something wrong with the bible, I'd pay attention to Jesus.

In fact, that is essentially what Joseph Smith claimed to have done, quite literally. It is what Mormons claim happens when the leaders of our faith...the prophet and the twelve apostles...declare that something has changed about the way we do things.

It seems to me, anyway, that religions which only think that God USED to speak to us, but that it is somehow declasse' to think that He could possibly want to talk to us now are so far off the track that they may as well be stamp collecting clubs.

[dianaiad]

Mormons have this thing: One of the thirteen articles of faith.
"We believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

The title page to the Book of Mormon states that 'if there are And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; "....hardly a resounding claim of 'this is infallible and there are no possible errors.'

This is far worse! It's saying "Our religion is true, no matter what!"

Well, yeah. Or rather, 'Our religion has the most truth, and when we go off the rails, God will yank us back." Whatever floats your boat.

It's absurd.

It's like me saying, "Science is always right, despite scientists."

Er...you don't believe in the scientific method? In constant learning, evolution of thought and further experiments based upon greater knowledge? Weird.

So, Di, which part of the Mormon text is wrong? 20%? 80%

And, let me guess, none of it is wrong in the "important" aspects....

It's pure religious BS.

Define 'important aspects.'

I am aware that you think any theistic thought is BS. (shrug)
I don't actually care. You realize that, right?

[Danmark]

Why, yes. We do believe in continuous revelation; that God has a hand in keeping things close to accuracy, so that when men DO go off the rails, He can pull us back, and we'll actually listen when He does.

Here's a true story that I've told before on this forum: I was flipping channels one day and almost skipped past a televangilist, when something he said caught my ear. What followed was THE most chilling (and influential in my own POV in this matter) incident I've had in my life. The guy picked up the bible, held it up in his hand then held it to his chest. He said "This Book is perfect; if Jesus Himself came down and told me personally that there was anything wrong, or inaccurate, about this book . . . I would turn my back on Him and hold to the book."

Have to admit it is a dilemma. Admittedly the TV evangelist and those that claim infallibility are indeed absurd. OTOH, not believing in authority/infallibility leaves you with mush.

The idea that an absolute God/eternal/creator of the universe can do a 180 on matters like race and polygamy is also absurd. The lesson to be learned from this is that the whole concept of a perfect god who communicates perfectly with humans is an absurd and flawed idea.

[dianaiad]

Why, yes. We do believe in continuous revelation; that God has a hand in keeping things close to accuracy, so that when men DO go off the rails, He can pull us back, and we'll actually listen when He does.

Here's a true story that I've told before on this forum: I was flipping channels one day and almost skipped past a televangilist, when something he said caught my ear. What followed was THE most chilling (and influential in my own POV in this matter) incident I've had in my life. The guy picked up the bible, held it up in his hand then held it to his chest. He said "This Book is perfect; if Jesus Himself came down and told me personally that there was anything wrong, or inaccurate, about this book . . . I would turn my back on Him and hold to the book."

Have to admit it is a dilemma. Admittedly the TV evangelist and those that claim infallibility are indeed absurd. OTOH, not believing in authority/infallibility leaves you with mush.

The idea that an absolute God/eternal/creator of the universe can do a 180 on matters like race and polygamy is also absurd. The lesson to be learned from this is that the whole concept of a perfect god who communicates perfectly with humans is an absurd and flawed idea.

Yet you have just approved that attitude; if God cannot correct mistakes that MEN make (and the idea isn't that He changed His mind, after all, is it?) then how is that not the same thing as the 'absurd' claim of infallibility of THE BOOK?

[Dantalion]

Why, yes. We do believe in continuous revelation; that God has a hand in keeping things close to accuracy, so that when men DO go off the rails, He can pull us back, and we'll actually listen when He does.

Here's a true story that I've told before on this forum: I was flipping channels one day and almost skipped past a televangilist, when something he said caught my ear. What followed was THE most chilling (and influential in my own POV in this matter) incident I've had in my life. The guy picked up the bible, held it up in his hand then held it to his chest. He said "This Book is perfect; if Jesus Himself came down and told me personally that there was anything wrong, or inaccurate, about this book . . . I would turn my back on Him and hold to the book."

Have to admit it is a dilemma. Admittedly the TV evangelist and those that claim infallibility are indeed absurd. OTOH, not believing in authority/infallibility leaves you with mush.

The idea that an absolute God/eternal/creator of the universe can do a 180 on matters like race and polygamy is also absurd. The lesson to be learned from this is that the whole concept of a perfect god who communicates perfectly with humans is an absurd and flawed idea.

Yet you have just approved that attitude; if God cannot correct mistakes that MEN make (and the idea isn't that He changed His mind, after all, is it?) then how is that not the same thing as the 'absurd' claim of infallibility of THE BOOK?

I can't really answer that question without suggesting the thought of 'God in and of itself is an absurd claim', but I'll keep a close eye on this discussion.

[Danmark]

Why, yes. We do believe in continuous revelation; that God has a hand in keeping things close to accuracy, so that when men DO go off the rails, He can pull us back, and we'll actually listen when He does.

Here's a true story that I've told before on this forum: I was flipping channels one day and almost skipped past a televangilist, when something he said caught my ear. What followed was THE most chilling (and influential in my own POV in this matter) incident I've had in my life. The guy picked up the bible, held it up in his hand then held it to his chest. He said "This Book is perfect; if Jesus Himself came down and told me personally that there was anything wrong, or inaccurate, about this book . . . I would turn my back on Him and hold to the book."

Have to admit it is a dilemma. Admittedly the TV evangelist and those that claim infallibility are indeed absurd. OTOH, not believing in authority/infallibility leaves you with mush.

The idea that an absolute God/eternal/creator of the universe can do a 180 on matters like race and polygamy is also absurd. The lesson to be learned from this is that the whole concept of a perfect god who communicates perfectly with humans is an absurd and flawed idea.

Yet you have just approved that attitude; if God cannot correct mistakes that MEN make (and the idea isn't that He changed His mind, after all, is it?) then how is that not the same thing as the 'absurd' claim of infallibility of THE BOOK?

Thank you for the critique. I will try* to be clearer:

The point is that if there really were a god, a perfect being who created the universe, then he would be unchanging since to change would imply he was not perfect prior to the change. If there really were such a god, he would be able to communicate clearly to humans and not have to constantly send rewrites.

However, if humans wrote the Bible et al. then it makes perfect sense that it would be fallible and need correcting on a regular basis.


It is absurd to claim that THIS BOOK, the Bible [with or without its latter day 'revelations'] is infallible. To make the claim that the Bible is the word of god and also that it has errors seems to me a contradiction in concepts.


______________________________
Not only is my cat interrupting my thoughts, he walked across the keyboard deleting sections of brilliant rhetoric, leaving me with the poor attempt you see above.

Earlier it was my wife playing 'brain buzzer' nagging me about disposing of the remains of one of the cat's trophies until finally,

"Is that bird brain going to stay here all day?"

"I was hoping she would get dressed and go to work," I replied.

[dianaiad]

Thank you for the critique. I will try* to be clearer:

The point is that if there really were a god, a perfect being who created the universe, then he would be unchanging since to change would imply he was not perfect prior to the change. If there really were such a god, he would be able to communicate clearly to humans and not have to constantly send rewrites.

However, if humans wrote the Bible et al. then it makes perfect sense that it would be fallible and need correcting on a regular basis.


It is absurd to claim that THIS BOOK, the Bible [with or without its latter day 'revelations'] is infallible. To make the claim that the Bible is the word of god and also that it has errors seems to me a contradiction in concepts.

Actually, the claim is more like 'it contains the word of God." Perhaps that helps?


______________________________
Not only is my cat interrupting my thoughts, he walked across the keyboard deleting sections of brilliant rhetoric, leaving me with the poor attempt you see above.

Earlier it was my wife playing 'brain buzzer' nagging me about disposing of the remains of one of the cat's trophies until finally,

"Is that bird brain going to stay here all day?"

"I was hoping she would get dressed and go to work," I replied.[/quote]

[Dantalion]

Thank you for the critique. I will try* to be clearer:

The point is that if there really were a god, a perfect being who created the universe, then he would be unchanging since to change would imply he was not perfect prior to the change. If there really were such a god, he would be able to communicate clearly to humans and not have to constantly send rewrites.

However, if humans wrote the Bible et al. then it makes perfect sense that it would be fallible and need correcting on a regular basis.


It is absurd to claim that THIS BOOK, the Bible [with or without its latter day 'revelations'] is infallible. To make the claim that the Bible is the word of god and also that it has errors seems to me a contradiction in concepts.

Actually, the claim is more like 'it contains the word of God." Perhaps that helps?


______________________________
Not only is my cat interrupting my thoughts, he walked across the keyboard deleting sections of brilliant rhetoric, leaving me with the poor attempt you see above.

Earlier it was my wife playing 'brain buzzer' nagging me about disposing of the remains of one of the cat's trophies until finally,

"Is that bird brain going to stay here all day?"

"I was hoping she would get dressed and go to work," I replied.

[/quote]

Well, it makes things worse imho, because how do you discern what is the word of God and what isn't ?

[dianaiad]

Thank you for the critique. I will try* to be clearer:

The point is that if there really were a god, a perfect being who created the universe, then he would be unchanging since to change would imply he was not perfect prior to the change. If there really were such a god, he would be able to communicate clearly to humans and not have to constantly send rewrites.

However, if humans wrote the Bible et al. then it makes perfect sense that it would be fallible and need correcting on a regular basis.


It is absurd to claim that THIS BOOK, the Bible [with or without its latter day 'revelations'] is infallible. To make the claim that the Bible is the word of god and also that it has errors seems to me a contradiction in concepts.

Actually, the claim is more like 'it contains the word of God." Perhaps that helps?


______________________________
Not only is my cat interrupting my thoughts, he walked across the keyboard deleting sections of brilliant rhetoric, leaving me with the poor attempt you see above.

Earlier it was my wife playing 'brain buzzer' nagging me about disposing of the remains of one of the cat's trophies until finally,

"Is that bird brain going to stay here all day?"

"I was hoping she would get dressed and go to work," I replied.

Well, it makes things worse imho, because how do you discern what is the word of God and what isn't ?[/quote]


You ask God. He's the One Who would know, after all.

Exactly the same way that you would ask, say, Orson Scott Card if 'Ender's Game' the movie had anything remotely resembling the intent of his book.

[antonenus]

You ask God. He's the One Who would know, after all.

Too bad God says different things to different people.

Maybe He's just messing with all of us? Or maybe no one hears from God and it's all just made up? Or maybe some people do hear from God, and it's just the others who are making it up? Or maybe God tells some people the truth, some people lies, and the others nothing at all.