Why are so many evangelicals conservative politically?

[Danmark]

"White evangelical Protestants are roughly five times more likely to agree with the Tea Party movement than to disagree with it...."
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/2 ... filiation/
http://www.pewforum.org/2011/02/23/tea- ... -religion/

Why?
Why should a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ be so conservative politically and economically? Why should the 'soldiers of Christ' be so pro big business and be lackey's for the 1% of Americans that own 40 or 50% of the Country's wealth? Why are they so hostile to social programs designed to help the poor and provide basic health coverage?

[WinePusher]

No one has used the word 'racism' until you just now.

Right, because you never had the courage to actually say what you meant. Rather than flat out say that what I wrote was racist (which would be the manly thing to do) you had to tacitly imply it through your carefully worded sentences.

But the comment where you condemned all of black culture is clearly racist.

And why I should care about your biased opinion? You're a liberal aren't you? You see the entire world in terms of race. I mean, just look at the very first word of your poorly constructed topic. WHITE.

It is racist because instead of saying, as Lemon did, that there are aspects of black culture that are harmful, you claimed that "black culture" has no work ethic and no value of respect.

Yes, I'm glad you're finally understanding what I'm saying. Black culture, not black individuals, does not value things such as hard work and respect.

Now you have to add, 'cowardly,' challenge my 'manliness' and 'courage?'
And claim the subtopic was 'poorly constructed.'

Since you are largely simply throwing insults, I take it you still do not understand why yours was a 'racist' comment. Let me help:

The problem you are apparently oblivious to is that you condemned an entire culture because their are elements of it that do not meet your approval. I find much in American culture contemptible, I just don't see it in racial terms like you do. You insist on judging an entire people by what you and I probably agree, is the worst element of that culture. It's like judging 'white culture' by the worst of its stereotypes. I don't choose to engage in labeling those stereotypes, but surely there are aspects of white America that offend you. There certainly are aspects of white American culture that do not promote hard work and respect for others; that are entirely materialistic and judge each other by their possessions, their drug use, their criminal acts, their pride in lack of education, their put downs of intellectuals.

And no, I am not a 'liberal' and do not see most things through a racial filter.
But when you condemn an entire culture, which you denominate as 'black,' I make the analysis you see before you.

Your problem is that you continue to repeat your nonsense despite the fact that it's been thoroughly refuted. You didn't even respond to a single thing I wrote. All you do is ignore and carry on writing whatever you please. Unless you start responding to the points I make I'm not going to continue wasting my time on you.

And referring to a culture as 'black' isn't racist. It's a legitimate description that was used by Don Lemon. And the problem is that the worst element of the black culture has become the majority modus operandi of the black culture which is why I said what I said. Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect. Don Lemon is one of them. Then, there's a host of other black leaders who don't. And who do the young black adults try to imitate and emulate? People like Don Lemon and Oprah Winfry or people like Lil Wayne and Nicki Minaj?

[Danmark]

No one has used the word 'racism' until you just now.

Right, because you never had the courage to actually say what you meant. Rather than flat out say that what I wrote was racist (which would be the manly thing to do) you had to tacitly imply it through your carefully worded sentences.

But the comment where you condemned all of black culture is clearly racist.

And why I should care about your biased opinion? You're a liberal aren't you? You see the entire world in terms of race. I mean, just look at the very first word of your poorly constructed topic. WHITE.

It is racist because instead of saying, as Lemon did, that there are aspects of black culture that are harmful, you claimed that "black culture" has no work ethic and no value of respect.

Yes, I'm glad you're finally understanding what I'm saying. Black culture, not black individuals, does not value things such as hard work and respect.

Now you have to add, 'cowardly,' challenge my 'manliness' and 'courage?'
And claim the subtopic was 'poorly constructed.'

Since you are largely simply throwing insults, I take it you still do not understand why yours was a 'racist' comment. Let me help:

The problem you are apparently oblivious to is that you condemned an entire culture because their are elements of it that do not meet your approval. I find much in American culture contemptible, I just don't see it in racial terms like you do. You insist on judging an entire people by what you and I probably agree, is the worst element of that culture. It's like judging 'white culture' by the worst of its stereotypes. I don't choose to engage in labeling those stereotypes, but surely there are aspects of white America that offend you. There certainly are aspects of white American culture that do not promote hard work and respect for others; that are entirely materialistic and judge each other by their possessions, their drug use, their criminal acts, their pride in lack of education, their put downs of intellectuals.

And no, I am not a 'liberal' and do not see most things through a racial filter.
But when you condemn an entire culture, which you denominate as 'black,' I make the analysis you see before you.

Your problem is that you continue to repeat your nonsense despite the fact that it's been thoroughly refuted. You didn't even respond to a single thing I wrote. All you do is ignore and carry on writing whatever you please. Unless you start responding to the points I make I'm not going to continue wasting my time on you.

And referring to a culture as 'black' isn't racist. It's a legitimate description that was used by Don Lemon. And the problem is that the worst element of the black culture has become the majority modus operandi of the black culture which is why I said what I said. Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect. Don Lemon is one of them. Then, there's a host of other black leaders who don't. And who do the young black adults try to imitate and emulate? People like Don Lemon and Oprah Winfry or people like Lil Wayne and Nicki Minaj?

When you say anything worth refuting, I'll bother. You have simply misused and oversimplified what Lemon said. Yes, I've read a transcript. Lemon decried one, narrow aspect of a particular subculture. Despite several opportunities and invitations to clarify, you insist on condemning all of black culture, instead of focusing on the single area Lemon referred to. As I've mentioned, I agree with the narrow statement of his that a certain aspect of that narrow 'black' subculture is dysfunctional to a great degree. You can't weasel out of what you wrote by saying, 'O! yeah, I'm not saying ALL black people are lazy.'

I appreciate that you have now amended your original statement, finally, with the rather weak and begrudging 'Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect.'

The more you write the more you reveal. For example, your need to see me as a 'liberal' despite my eschewing the mind narrowing addiction to ideology rather than doing objective, specific analysis.

Your approach is a good example of Hodson and Busseri's

“....ideologies get rid of the messiness and impose a simple solution. So, it may not be surprising that people with less cognitive capacity will be attracted to simplifying ideologies.�

[Lux]

Moderator Comment

Right, because you never had the courage to actually say what you meant. Rather than flat out say that what I wrote was racist (which would be the manly thing to do) you had to tacitly imply it through your carefully worded sentences.

This entire paragraph ads nothing to the debate, it's only a personal attack against Danmark. As you already know, incivility is not tolerated in this forum, especially not against other members.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[WinePusher]

When you say anything worth refuting, I'll bother.

What a terrible attitude for a 'debater' to have.

I appreciate that you have now amended your original statement, finally, with the rather weak and begrudging 'Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect.'

I didn't amend anything. I simply added more to what I wrote so that those with 'less cognitive capacity' could understand. I never said ALL of black culture was bad.

The more you write the more you reveal.

Like I said, I couldn't care less about what I 'reveal' to a random person over the internet.

For example, your need to see me as a 'liberal' despite my eschewing the mind narrowing addiction to ideology rather than doing objective, specific analysis.

You repeatedly espouse ideas and policies that liberals espouse, and now you're trying to make it seem like you aren't liberal? I think the problem here is that I'm actually educated in these subjects and I follow them very closely. I understand what political ideologies are and therefore I am qualified to use and apply them where I see fit. When I see someone who wants to be known as Marx's brother, and who constantly condemns that right wing (the antithesis of liberalism) and promotes liberal values I'll assume that that person is liberal. Actually, I didn't even assume you're a liberal. I asked, and this very simple question is putting you over the edge.

[East of Eden]

No one has used the word 'racism' until you just now.

Right, because you never had the courage to actually say what you meant. Rather than flat out say that what I wrote was racist (which would be the manly thing to do) you had to tacitly imply it through your carefully worded sentences.

But the comment where you condemned all of black culture is clearly racist.

And why I should care about your biased opinion? You're a liberal aren't you? You see the entire world in terms of race. I mean, just look at the very first word of your poorly constructed topic. WHITE.

It is racist because instead of saying, as Lemon did, that there are aspects of black culture that are harmful, you claimed that "black culture" has no work ethic and no value of respect.

Yes, I'm glad you're finally understanding what I'm saying. Black culture, not black individuals, does not value things such as hard work and respect.

Now you have to add, 'cowardly,' challenge my 'manliness' and 'courage?'
And claim the subtopic was 'poorly constructed.'

Since you are largely simply throwing insults, I take it you still do not understand why yours was a 'racist' comment. Let me help:

The problem you are apparently oblivious to is that you condemned an entire culture because their are elements of it that do not meet your approval. I find much in American culture contemptible, I just don't see it in racial terms like you do. You insist on judging an entire people by what you and I probably agree, is the worst element of that culture. It's like judging 'white culture' by the worst of its stereotypes. I don't choose to engage in labeling those stereotypes, but surely there are aspects of white America that offend you. There certainly are aspects of white American culture that do not promote hard work and respect for others; that are entirely materialistic and judge each other by their possessions, their drug use, their criminal acts, their pride in lack of education, their put downs of intellectuals.

And no, I am not a 'liberal' and do not see most things through a racial filter.
But when you condemn an entire culture, which you denominate as 'black,' I make the analysis you see before you.

Your problem is that you continue to repeat your nonsense despite the fact that it's been thoroughly refuted. You didn't even respond to a single thing I wrote. All you do is ignore and carry on writing whatever you please. Unless you start responding to the points I make I'm not going to continue wasting my time on you.

And referring to a culture as 'black' isn't racist. It's a legitimate description that was used by Don Lemon. And the problem is that the worst element of the black culture has become the majority modus operandi of the black culture which is why I said what I said. Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect. Don Lemon is one of them. Then, there's a host of other black leaders who don't. And who do the young black adults try to imitate and emulate? People like Don Lemon and Oprah Winfry or people like Lil Wayne and Nicki Minaj?

When you say anything worth refuting, I'll bother. You have simply misused and oversimplified what Lemon said. Yes, I've read a transcript. Lemon decried one, narrow aspect of a particular subculture. Despite several opportunities and invitations to clarify, you insist on condemning all of black culture, instead of focusing on the single area Lemon referred to. As I've mentioned, I agree with the narrow statement of his that a certain aspect of that narrow 'black' subculture is dysfunctional to a great degree. You can't weasel out of what you wrote by saying, 'O! yeah, I'm not saying ALL black people are lazy.'

I appreciate that you have now amended your original statement, finally, with the rather weak and begrudging 'Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect.'

The more you write the more you reveal. For example, your need to see me as a 'liberal' despite my eschewing the mind narrowing addiction to ideology rather than doing objective, specific analysis.

You do nothing here but trash the GOP and conservatives, and we shouldn't think you're a liberal? How about a little truth in advertising.

[micatala]

You do nothing here but trash the GOP and conservatives, and we shouldn't think you're a liberal? How about a little truth in advertising.

This is a fallacious statement, since it implicitly presumes a false dichotomy.

Having a negative view of conservatives does not make one a liberal. That you would assert this seems to indicate you see things in very stark, black and white, ideological terms.

Asking for 'truth in advertising' after the explicit statements Danmark has already made is also an implicit accusation he is being dishonest.


I will note you have done this to me as well several times, even after I corrected you and provided numerous examples that I am not at all consistently liberal in my ideology. You have yet to retract your false characterizations of me or even address most of the examples I provided.

[East of Eden]

You do nothing here but trash the GOP and conservatives, and we shouldn't think you're a liberal? How about a little truth in advertising.

This is a fallacious statement, since it implicitly presumes a false dichotomy.

Having a negative view of conservatives does not make one a liberal. That you would assert this seems to indicate you see things in very stark, black and white, ideological terms.

Asking for 'truth in advertising' after the explicit statements Danmark has already made is also an implicit accusation he is being dishonest.


I will note you have done this to me as well several times, even after I corrected you and provided numerous examples that I am not at all consistently liberal in my ideology. You have yet to retract your false characterizations of me or even address most of the examples I provided.

No retraction coming, you are cut from the same cloth as Danmark, almost always taking a liberal position and presenting yourself as some kind of centrist. There is no shame in coming from one end of the political spectrum, why not admit it? I do.

[Danmark]

When you say anything worth refuting, I'll bother.

What a terrible attitude for a 'debater' to have.

I appreciate that you have now amended your original statement, finally, with the rather weak and begrudging 'Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect.'

I didn't amend anything. I simply added more to what I wrote so that those with 'less cognitive capacity' could understand. I never said ALL of black culture was bad.

The more you write the more you reveal.

Like I said, I couldn't care less about what I 'reveal' to a random person over the internet.

For example, your need to see me as a 'liberal' despite my eschewing the mind narrowing addiction to ideology rather than doing objective, specific analysis.

You repeatedly espouse ideas and policies that liberals espouse, and now you're trying to make it seem like you aren't liberal? I think the problem here is that I'm actually educated in these subjects and I follow them very closely. I understand what political ideologies are and therefore I am qualified to use and apply them where I see fit. When I see someone who wants to be known as Marx's brother, and who constantly condemns that right wing (the antithesis of liberalism) and promotes liberal values I'll assume that that person is liberal. Actually, I didn't even assume you're a liberal. I asked, and this very simple question is putting you over the edge.

Hilarious! I think you've got Karl confused with Groucho, Harpo, and Chico.
I change my avatar all the time, WC Fields, Mark Twain, and Groucho being my favorites*. Talk about jumping to conclusions!

Since when does any debater have to let YOU decide what he wants to debate, or let you dictate what is worthy of responding to? Has it occurred to you that some debaters simply might not want to converse with you? Why this self serving assumption that when you are ignored? Ignoring your remarks may have nothing to do with not being able to 'refute' what you say, or may simply be an effort to decline your invitation to exchange personal remarks.

Micatala just wrote an excellent, succinct response to E of E about false dichotomies and seeing things in either/or terms. This is exactly the point I have been trying to make about avoiding being ideologically hamstrung.

Dr. Brian Nosek's remark bears repeating:
“Ideologies get rid of the messiness and impose a simple solution. So, it may not be surprising that people with less cognitive capacity will be attracted to simplifying ideologies.�

But yes, you may have not intended it but you did say all of black culture, tho' you did not use the word 'all,' you implied it by writing:

that unlike Asian culture, "black culture has no work ethic and no value of respect."

Why write "black culture" when you meant just a tiny segment of it. You used no qualifiers. You then listed as an example of 'black culture' the music you don't like [I don't care for it either, either musically or for its content, tho' I don't really know the the content, since I never listen to it. I'm not even sure that 'rap' qualifies as music. I have a tin ear, but I've never been able to detect much of a melody, when I'm accidentally assaulted with it]

Heck, now I'm on a rant about music. I can't stand rap, hip-hop, or whatever. All sounds the same to me. I'd like to know why I have to listen to someone else's version of 'music' when I pop into a store, or even when pumping gas.

They never seem to play Miles Davis, or Art Tatum or Ben Webster. The trash they do play is in the same league with 'Christian Rock.' =o) Not sure which is worse.

But enough fun.

I think it is actually a misnomer to even describe culture racially. It's a false concept. Even using the terminology "Asian or Black or White" culture denotes stereotypic thinking.
The way an anthropologist or sociologist uses 'culture' is the full range of learned human behavior patterns. The term was coined by Tylor in the 19th Century in his Primitive Culture, Tylor said that culture is "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."

I find it hard to believe that it could ever be accurate to talk about an entire race as having a separate and distinct culture, unless we are talking about the human race.

___________________________________
*Sometimes I simply change it to reflect a topic, or just to slip someone the needle.
I appreciate the feedback.

[East of Eden]

When you say anything worth refuting, I'll bother.

What a terrible attitude for a 'debater' to have.

I appreciate that you have now amended your original statement, finally, with the rather weak and begrudging 'Yes, some black leaders do promote good values such as hard work and respect.'

I didn't amend anything. I simply added more to what I wrote so that those with 'less cognitive capacity' could understand. I never said ALL of black culture was bad.

The more you write the more you reveal.

Like I said, I couldn't care less about what I 'reveal' to a random person over the internet.

For example, your need to see me as a 'liberal' despite my eschewing the mind narrowing addiction to ideology rather than doing objective, specific analysis.

You repeatedly espouse ideas and policies that liberals espouse, and now you're trying to make it seem like you aren't liberal? I think the problem here is that I'm actually educated in these subjects and I follow them very closely. I understand what political ideologies are and therefore I am qualified to use and apply them where I see fit. When I see someone who wants to be known as Marx's brother, and who constantly condemns that right wing (the antithesis of liberalism) and promotes liberal values I'll assume that that person is liberal. Actually, I didn't even assume you're a liberal. I asked, and this very simple question is putting you over the edge.

Hilarious! I think you've got Karl confused with Groucho, Harpo, and Chico.
I change my avatar all the time, WC Fields, Mark Twain, and Groucho being my favorites*. Talk about jumping to conclusions!

Since when does any debater have to let YOU decide what he wants to debate, or let you dictate what is worthy of responding to? Has it occurred to you that some debaters simply might not want to converse with you? Why this self serving assumption that when you are ignored? Ignoring your remarks may have nothing to do with not being able to 'refute' what you say, or may simply be an effort to decline your invitation to exchange personal remarks.

Micatala just wrote an excellent, succinct response to E of E about false dichotomies and seeing things in either/or terms. This is exactly the point I have been trying to make about avoiding being ideologically hamstrung.

Dr. Brian Nosek's remark bears repeating:
“Ideologies get rid of the messiness and impose a simple solution. So, it may not be surprising that people with less cognitive capacity will be attracted to simplifying ideologies.�

But yes, you may have not intended it but you did say all of black culture, tho' you did not use the word 'all,' you implied it by writing:

that unlike Asian culture, "black culture has no work ethic and no value of respect."

Why write "black culture" when you meant just a tiny segment of it. You used no qualifiers. You then listed as an example of 'black culture' the music you don't like [I don't care for it either, either musically or for its content, tho' I don't really know the the content, since I never listen to it. I'm not even sure that 'rap' qualifies as music. I have a tin ear, but I've never been able to detect much of a melody, when I'm accidentally assaulted with it]

Heck, now I'm on a rant about music. I can't stand rap, hip-hop, or whatever. All sounds the same to me. I'd like to know why I have to listen to someone else's version of 'music' when I pop into a store, or even when pumping gas.

They never seem to play Miles Davis, or Art Tatum or Ben Webster. The trash they do play is in the same league with 'Christian Rock.' =o) Not sure which is worse.

But enough fun.

I think it is actually a misnomer to even describe culture racially. It's a false concept. Even using the terminology "Asian or Black or White" culture denotes stereotypic thinking.
The way an anthropologist or sociologist uses 'culture' is the full range of learned human behavior patterns. The term was coined by Tylor in the 19th Century in his Primitive Culture, Tylor said that culture is "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."

I find it hard to believe that it could ever be accurate to talk about an entire race as having a separate and distinct culture, unless we are talking about the human race.

I don't think I ever got an answer to this, do you see any differences between Asian and US black cultures? Do you think all cultures and religions are the same?

[Danmark]

I don't think I ever got an answer to this, do you see any differences between Asian and US black cultures? Do you think all cultures and religions are the same?

Excellent question! Except for the use of racial modifiers. I'm not being flippant. I think it is an important point for reasons I stated in my recent reply to WP.

But the question is a good one nonetheless. No, obviously cultures and their subcultures are different. All reasonably healthy people from all cultures and languages share some basic values. We are all self maximizing organisms. We share common values (whether we carry them out or not, we accept these values). We love and care for our young, and nurture them. We want to succeed in life, tho' we may define success differently. We have a sense of community.

How each separate culture carries out their basic values is where the differences arise. Language alone is an enormously significant part of each culture. And even within languages, there are important distinctions.

Let's take the example of 'liberal' and 'conservative' cultures. I assume both cultures believe in the 'greatest good for the greatest number;' that we all want equality of opportunity; that we all want to 'succeed' or be happy and fulfilled. We want to feel important. We want to create. We all agree that 'things should be fair.'

The factions may disagree on how to achieve those ends, but we have different ideas on how best to meet those goals.

The reason it's impossible to answer your question about Asian vs. black culture is that there is a wide spectrum in both.

Wikipedia lists these U.S. Asian street gangs:

Asian Boyz, Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laotian
Jackson Street Boys, Chinese and Vietnamese
Menace of Destruction, Hmong
Triad, Chinese
Wah Ching, Chinese
Yakuza, Japanese

I won't pretend I know any thing about them; did not even click on any of them, except:
Wah Ching (Traditional Chinese: ��, Simplified Chinese: ��, Pinyin:Huá Qīng) is a Chinese American Triad Society (secret society) and street gang also known as "Dub C" originating in San Francisco during the early 1960s. At the time, Wah Ching was organized into one enormous gang. Wah Ching controlled most of the criminal vices throughout the San Francisco and Los Angeles Asian communities.

I suspect these 'Asians' have a dramatically different subculture than does my close friend Christopher, a very successful lawyer whose parents are both Washington D.C. doctors; one a physician and the other physicist. [Does it matter whether he is 'black' or 'white?']

Are there general differences between cultures based on race? Perhaps. That seems to be the accepted mythology in some circles. I don't think it is productive to research them, but I don't see how you do so without reinforcing stereotypes.

Here's an example of why I am cautious:
[from a Harvard study]

BTW, before the quote, I did not see it in this article, but my recollection from a radio interview was that when the physicians saw the results, they were horrified at their own behavior, behavior they were not conscious of.

It has been well documented that there is a gap in the healthcare treatment African-Americans receive, especially in emergency rooms, according to the study authors.

A number of studies have shown that whites are twice as likely as blacks to receive full treatment for heart attacks in the emergency room, according to the study, available at the Web site of the Journal of General Internal Medicine.

The Harvard study and a handful of others in recent years are attempting to zero in on whether inherent racial bias on the part of the provider is a factor, and how this may play out, said Dana Carney, a postdoctoral fellow in the psychology department at Harvard.

The Harvard study examined the conscious and unconscious attitudes of 220 interns -- almost all of whom were white -- toward white and black patients.

The study found that most of the physicians, whether white, Asian or Latino, tended to harbor biases against black patients and that this resulted in the patients receiving less thorough treatment, Carney said.

Just six of the interns were black, and while they expressed less bias against black patients, in some, it was there, Carney said. The reason is broad stereotypes propagated by the media and society in general, she said.

"It's the culture's thumbprint on our mind," Carney told United Press International.
http://mirroronamerica.blogspot.com/200 ... among.html