Is Secularism a threat to Christianity?

[McCulloch]

Secularism, Islam and the Gay Pride movement seem very threatening to the peace and safety of Christians in today's world.

You can't understand that?

Is Secularism a threat to Christianity? The USA, the world's first constitutionally secular nation, is where Christianity abounds. How is it that secularism, the legal separation of religion and government, threatens the peace and safety of Christians?

[99percentatheism]

Danmark....
The very term "seperation [sic] of Church and State" is found NO WHERE in the Constitution. It has been developed over a very short time frame in American history and is now quite threatening to Christianity. The interactions between the Danbury Baptist Church and Thomas Jefferson have do not support the wat SOC&S has been developed.

This is just plain misleading bunk perpetrated by ignorant non lawyers who are neither scholars of the Constitution nor of history.

Of course your misspelling is not found in the Constitution; neither is 'separation' in this context. Yes the phrase comes from Jefferson in a letter he wrote and shows his thinking on the phrase that IS in the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . . ."

In English, the exact term [separation of church and state] is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion and vice versa.
_ wikipedia
Jefferson wrote his letter only 11 years after the 1st Amendment was adopted. It is interesting to note that Jefferson was Madison's mentor in these matters.

Oh my, my, my. History so forgotten:

The Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut wrote to President Thomas Jefferson on October 7, 1801, to complain about the infringement of their religious liberty by their state legislature: what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. The Baptists, of course, acknowledged that the president of the United States is not the national legislator, but expressed the wish that his views on religious liberty would shine and prevail through all these states and all the world.

In his brief response, President Jefferson sympathized with the Connecticut Baptists in their opposition to the states established religion, while expressing his reverence for the First Amendments wall of separation between Church & State at the federal level. Jefferson was not advancing the modern view that religion must be excluded from the public square. After all, he concludes his letter, written in his official capacity as President, with a brief prayer.

The now well-known expression lay dormant for nearly a century and a half until Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black, in the 1947 case Everson v. Board of Education, put forth the novel interpretation that the First Amendments establishment clause applied to the states and that any government support or preference for religion amounts to an unconstitutional establishment of religion. In support of his argument for a radical separation of religion and politics, he cited Jeffersons metaphor: [t]he First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable.

Jeffersons actual aim was quite to the contrary. While he, along with James Madison, stoutly opposed established churches as existed in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and other states (while recognizing that, as President, he had to respect them), he was deeply committed to religious liberty.

Jeffersons letter must also be read in context of his declaration in the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom: Almighty God hath created the mind free.

The wall of separation exists to affirm natural rights, including those of faith and religious worship. The wall does not imprison the free exercise of religion. Rather, Jefferson sought to prevent the domination of particular sects, making free the religious practices of all.



- http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/fir ... y-baptists

It's far past time to stand up and fight for the truth:

Letter to the Danbury Baptists
January 1, 1802

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man,

and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th. Jefferson


- http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/fir ... y-baptists

And is it totally forgotten that the Danbury Baptists wrote first to Mr. Jefferson?????

Letters Between the Danbury Baptists and Thomas Jefferson
10/07/1801
(For the latest FBI forensic research on Thomas Jefferson's letter click here. For an analysis of the context of this exchange between the Danbury Baptists and Jefferson, see Daniel Dreisbach's "'Sowing Useful Truths and Principles': The Danbury Baptists, Thomas Jefferson, and the 'Wall of Separation'" in the Journal of Church and State, Vol. 39, Summer 1997; or see David Barton's article "The Separation of Church and State")

Letter from the Danbury Baptists:

The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801.
To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America

Sir,
Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration , to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the Unite States. And though the mode of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe, that none is more sincere.

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter, together with the laws made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. And these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion, should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not, assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States--and all the world--until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you--to sustain and support you and your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the Association,

Neh,h Dodge }
Eph'm Robbins } The Committee
Stephen S. Nelson }

*A cite for this letter could read:

Letter of Oct. 7, 1801 from Danbury (CT) Baptist Assoc. to Thomas Jefferson,
Thomas Jefferson Papers, Manuscript Division,
Library of Congress, Wash. D.C.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

President Jefferson's Reply:

Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, and Stephen s. Nelson
A Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut.

Washington, January 1, 1802

Gentlemen,--The affectionate sentiment of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802

- http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=65

[10CC]

[Replying to post 637 by 99percentatheism]

Does anybody have any idea what 99 is raving about these days?
I mean
Do you want your daughter taught their version of christianity?
No I don't want her getting pregnant, having pimples or turning into a frog with warts.
What the hell?

[Danmark]

Danmark

Danmark

Christianity has largely been a bullying faith through most of its history, just like Islam.

Back that up with facts please.

It is getting a bit tiresome, backing up obviously true statements that few would question,

Obviously they are not obvious.

but:

Are you seriously unaware of the history of religion, the crusades, the inquisition, the burning of witches, the imprisonment of Galileo and the intimidation of other scientists and free thinkers?

Hmm, you seem to be leaving out the millions upon millions slaughtered by pagans and atheists during the same timeframe "Christians" existed.

Not at all. I don't contend that Christianity has been the only bully. Where did you get that idea? Virtually all nations and Abrahamic religions have been bullies. You just happened to pick the bully of your tradition.

[Danmark]

Danmark

Danmark

Many Christians have argued long and hard and inaccurately that the founding fathers were Christian despite the fact they were mainly deist.

"Mainly deist?" Please prove that.

Sorry 99, I thought that was common knowledge:

Common knowledge may be a thing of the past.

Paine knew the threat of secularism towards him. He was imprisoned in France during the raging Atheist-Deist violence of the French Revolution.

But let's see what you got to offer. And I'd say that Jonathan Locke had immense influence on the formation of The United States of America. And Locke was no friend of atheism.

Deism in the United States

Thomas Paine
In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters and included in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

That's more propaganda than reality. The USA was very religious as a country for something like 185-years. And certainly through the years of Paine and Jefferson.

But what else to be expected from a wikipedia piece.

Go on:

American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence.

Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen,[49] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout the USA and Europe).
A major contributor was Elihu Palmer (1764"1806), who wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York".
In the United States there is controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians, deists, or something in between.[50][51] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington.[52][53][54]
Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another freethinker) and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful."[55][56] Franklin also wrote that "the Deity sometimes interferes by his particular Providence, and sets aside the Events which would otherwise have been produc'd in the Course of Nature, or by the Free Agency of Man.[57] He later stated, in the Constitutional Convention, that "the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men."[58]
For his part, Thomas Jefferson is perhaps one of the Founding Fathers with the most outspoken of Deist tendencies, though he is not known to have called himself a deist, generally referring to himself as a Unitarian. In particular, his treatment of the Biblical gospels which he titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, but which subsequently became more commonly known as the Jefferson Bible, exhibits a strong deist tendency of stripping away all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story. However, Frazer, following the lead of Sydney Ahlstrom, characterizes Jefferson as not a Deist but a "theistic rationalist", because Jefferson believed in God's continuing activity in human affairs.[59][60] Frazer cites Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, where he wrote, "I tremble" at the thought that "God is just," and he warned of eventual "supernatural influence" to abolish the scourge of slavery.[61][62]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Wikipedia?

That's your argument against Wikipedia as a source? Simply writing 'Wikipedia?'
I've demonstrated that THE founding fathers, the thought leaders and the principal architects of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were Deists and heavily influenced by deism.

In your long list* of names and religious affiliations from your obviously biased religious source, they only list 2 deists and also claim them as Episcopalians. They show no documentation whatsoever about their personal thoughts int addition to their various and nominal protestant affiliations. Curious how, since according to your source their were only two deists, Jefferson and Franklin, they were able to persuade all the others who supposedly were anti deist to go along with their deist beliefs including the Establishment clause.

I have highlighted pertinent passages of the Wikipedia article since it appears you did not actually read it.
____________________
*Religious Affiliation # of
delegates % of
delegates
Episcopalian/Anglican 31 56.4%
Presbyterian 16 29.1%
Congregationalist 8 14.5%
Quaker 3 5.5%
Catholic 2 3.6%
Methodist 2 3.6%
Lutheran 2 3.6%
Dutch Reformed 2 3.6%
TOTAL 55 100%

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Daniel Carroll Maryland Catholic
Thomas Fitzsimons Pennsylvania Catholic
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Langdon New Hampshire Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Congregationalist
Abraham Baldwin Georgia Congregationalist; Episcopalian
William Samuel Johnson Connecticut Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Madison Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer Maryland Episcopalian
David Brearly New Jersey Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Pierce Butler South Carolina Episcopalian
George Washington Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
William Blount North Carolina Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyteran
Rufus King Massachusetts Episcopalian; Congregationalist
Jacob Broom Delaware Lutheran
William Few Georgia Methodist
Richard Bassett Delaware Methodist
Gunning Bedford Jr. Delaware Presbyterian
James McHenry Maryland Presbyterian
William Livingston New Jersey Presbyterian
William Paterson New Jersey Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson North Carolina Presbyterian
Jared Ingersoll Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton New York Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian
Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Blair Virginia Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker; Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin Pennsylvania Quaker; Lutheran


Name of Non-Signing Delegate State Religious Affiliation
Oliver Ellsworth Connecticut Congregationalist
Caleb Strong Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Lansing, Jr. New York Dutch Reformed
Robert Yates New York Dutch Reformed
William Houstoun Georgia Episcopalian
William Leigh Pierce Georgia Episcopalian
Luther Martin Maryland Episcopalian
John F. Mercer Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
George Mason Virginia Episcopalian
Edmund J. Randolph Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
James McClurg Virginia Presbyterian
William C. Houston New Jersey Presbyterian
William R. Davie North Carolina Presbyterian
Alexander Martin
....
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204 [/quote]

[otseng]

Does anybody have any idea what 99 is raving about these days?
What the hell?

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[Goat]

Danmark

Danmark

Christianity has largely been a bullying faith through most of its history, just like Islam.

Back that up with facts please.

It is getting a bit tiresome, backing up obviously true statements that few would question,

Obviously they are not obvious.

but:

Are you seriously unaware of the history of religion, the crusades, the inquisition, the burning of witches, the imprisonment of Galileo and the intimidation of other scientists and free thinkers?

Hmm, you seem to be leaving out the millions upon millions slaughtered by pagans and atheists during the same timeframe "Christians" existed.

From the Romans, Huns and Vikings on to the uncountable atrocities of Atheist regimes . . . I'd say" Let's weigh worldviews by the scales of real history shall we?

Oh yeah, and the French revolution run by the Enlightement, was a salughterhouse that still reverberates to this day.

And of course our incredibly violent secular society in the USA is one more galringly obvious fact to dread.

You yourself want to misinterpret the Constitution and declare that because the exact phrase, "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution that no such concept exists. You apparently want to go back to the time when public schools were held in Christian churches.

Hmm, STD's abortions, Suicide rates of our teens, Gangs . . . Hmm, let me see, hmm, choice, choice, choice?

Do you really want to be at the mercy of whatever religion is most popular and have them run the government?

No I do not. Nor do I want the godless governments to set up goulags in America.

Do you want the watered down, 'secular' mainline 'Christian' churches and their minions teaching your daughter THEIR version of 'Christianity' in the public schools?

No. I do not want her to get pregnant, STD's or kill herself.

Yes, whenever any religion is powerful enough to align itself with the State, it becomes a bully and has actually killed and tortured people for having the 'wrong thoughts.' Do I really have to document this history for you?

You must not have interacted with me very often.

As recently as my own childhood in the United States I went to a public elementary school where EVERYone was a 'Christian' or they kept their mouths shut.

Not me. I was a most vocal atheist. No one bothere me about it at all. probably because I didn't vocalize any ill-will towards the little Christians in my schools.

Atheists were thought to be evil and were shunned.

Seeing what they do when they gain power in countries, that is a very healthy fear.

There was even prejudice against Roman Catholics. And the two Jewish kids in the school, well, no one knew they were Jews until years later.

ALL Christians were once Jews. Well, OK almost all.

The Christian culture in this country has been so pervasive that it has seemed like THE culture. Until 30 or so years ago, 'Merry Christmas!' was the only thing you heard during the holiday season. Now some Christians are crying because someone has the temerity to say "Happy Holidays!"

Happy Holidays is dug into the Christian psyche like a ounch to the gut on the playground. Do you really think I am that ignorant of what's going on? I used to live as a atheist.

The majority is generally oblivious to its inherent bullying and in denial about its intentional acts of discrimination and violence against religious and secular minorities.

That's simply ridiculous. How many Atheists proclaim that they were once "Christians.?" I'd say, if you want to see religious bullies that not only just beat you up but slaughter you, look to Mohammad's rendition of it. STILL after 1400-years. With all of the Atheists, liberals and progressives coming from the ranks of the Churches, I'd say that Christianity was the most open minded, peaceful and free thinking worldview of all time.

Thanks for the opportunity to dialogue. It was reality that had me choose Christ.

Hum. STD's , abortion, drug use. If you look at the statistics by state, why is it that it's the bible belt, supposedly the most Christian part of the country, that has the highest levels of these?

[pokeegeorge]

[Replying to post 644 by Goat]



Please present evidence concerning:

Hum. STD's , abortion, drug use. If you look at the statistics by state, why is it that it's the bible belt, supposedly the most Christian part of the country, that has the highest levels of these?

I would think these are most proliferous in inner city poor areas.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 644 by Goat]



Please present evidence concerning:

Hum. STD's , abortion, drug use. If you look at the statistics by state, why is it that it's the bible belt, supposedly the most Christian part of the country, that has the highest levels of these?

I would think these are most proliferous in inner city poor areas.

Really?? Care to show that?

Let's look at the rates by county of STD's among the youth in.. two state.. alabama and NY for the year 2011

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/by-age/15- ... 1/NY11.pdf

and
http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/by-age/15- ... 1/AL11.pdf

Then, let's look at Georgia

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/by-age/15- ... 1/GA11.pdf

That's better, but still much higher than even NYC.

Then Arkansaw

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/by-age/15- ... 1/AR11.pdf

I mean, one pattern I see is that it is continually higher though out the whole state than the is than even in NYC, which has huge amounts of inner city poor.

Texas does much better.. but not nearly as good as those Godless Liberal Heathens.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/by-age/15- ... 1/TX11.pdf

Gosh, I wonder why that is??

Now, let's look at teen pregnancy rates.. .. the top 20.

1. New Mexico - 93/1,000

2. Mississippi - 90/1,000

3. Texas - 85/1,000

4. Nevada - 84/1,000

5. Arkansas - 82/1,000

6. Arizona - 82/1,000

7. Delaware - 81/1,000

8. Louisiana - 80/1,000

9. Oklahoma - 80/1,000

10. Georgia - 78/1,000

11. South Carolina - 76/1,000

12. Hawaii - 76/1,000

13. Tennessee - 76/1,000

14. Alabama - 73/1,000

15. Florida - 73/1,000

16. North Carolina - 72/1,000

17. California - 72/1,000

18. New York - 71/1,000

19. Kentucky - 71/1,000

20. Alaska - 69/1,000

New York is tied with Kentucy at 71/1000, a pretty horrible number if you ask me.

HOWEVER, , let's look at the top 10.

New Mexico, Mississippi, Texas, Nevada, Arizona , Delaware, Lousiania, Oklahoma and Georgia. 3 are midwest, one in the northeast, and 6 southern bible belt states.

[pokeegeorge]

[Replying to post 646 by Goat]

I am guessing; you made an assertion.

Quit your shenanigans and present your evidence.

Isn't that the way it goes around here?

[Goat]

[Replying to post 646 by Goat]

I am guessing; you made an assertion.

Quit your shenanigans and present your evidence.

Isn't that the way it goes around here?

Un, I just did.. with the very post you liked to.. with sources ..

I made the asserstion, and I gave sources to back it up. Or, can't you understand what presenting evidence is?