which came first

show don't tell · Post by **show don't tell** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:29 pm

Im new to this board but have always loved debating people on this topic. The one question that has never been answered to my satifaction is which came first the chicken or the egg? If this been addressed please point me to the link.
Thank you

ProfMoriarty · Post by **ProfMoriarty** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:15 pm

The fossil record should have animals that are in transition from one major feature to the next (wings, eyes, sexual reproduction, lungs, etc). Instead, major features just appears without the many steps in between.

All organisms - extinct or extant - are transitional forms. That includes us.

Rich · Post by **Rich** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:52 am

Dear Folks,

I'm new here, so if you will bear with me I'm sure we can have some meaningfull dialogue.
I'm a Christian, and it seems to me to debate creationism and evolution most everyone wants to talk about the origin of species.
What I want to debate is the origin of all there is, all the elements, where did they come from.
I have a story to tell you all, its not long.
One day a skeptic of God tells Him if He will give the skeptic enough time he will create life. Ok says God, I'll give all the time you need, go ahead.
Very good says the skeptic, I'll get started right away. I'll just grab a handfull of this clay here and take to my lab. and; Wait now, hold on just a second here says God, you know thats my clay.

Science now knows at one time the elements did not exist. We know this by the way the elements are decaying, we measure their decay by their half lives. Some day down the road of the future our universe will not be here. It will have passed back to its nothingness.
It seems to me there is only one logical answer to the question of where the elements came from that are used to make us, and all there is.
It was God.
Good to be here.

jwu · Post by **jwu** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:21 am

Welcome to this forum!

Technically the origin of life, abiogenesis, is not quite the same as evolution, but nevertheless this forum is certainly a good place to discuss this too.

However, just to clarify something:

We know this by the way the elements are decaying, we measure their decay by their half lives. Some day down the road of the future our universe will not be here. It will have passed back to its nothingness.

It is quite certain that eventually after a very very long time all matter will disintegrate, this process however is not the same as the type of decay that we measure using half life times.

jwu

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:46 am

Rich wrote: It seems to me there is only one logical answer to the question of where the elements came from that are used to make us, and all there is.
It was God.
Good to be here.

cool, but who made god?

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:55 am

Rich wrote: Science now knows at one time the elements did not exist. We know this by the way the elements are decaying, we measure their decay by their half lives. Some day down the road of the future our universe will not be here. It will have passed back to its nothingness.

I have a slight problem with this.

When radioactive isotopes decay it is my understanding that they give up energy and change into an essentially inert substance i.e. in no longer decays. Is a lump of granite decaying? What is the half-life of granite? Same for basalt? What about a diamond? Are they decaying as well? Will the gold and diamond ring passed down from my great grandfather one day disappear of the finger of a far distant relative?

BTW One of the 'laws of nature' - nothing is destroyed, it just changes in form. i.e. matter=energy=matter.

Jose · Post by **Jose** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:10 am

bernee51 wrote:When radioactive isotopes decay it is my understanding that they give up energy and change into an essentially inert substance i.e. in no longer decays. Is a lump of granite decaying? What is the half-life of granite? Same for basalt? What about a diamond? Are they decaying as well? Will the gold and diamond ring passed down from my great grandfather one day disappear of the finger of a far distant relative?

Here's my understanding of it (others in the forum undoubtedly know more): Only the radioactive atoms decay (which is what radioactivity is). The most abundant stable isotope of carbon is carbon 12; carbon 13 (one additional neutron in the nucleus) is also stable, but much less abundant. Carbon 14 (two additional neutrons) is unstable, and decays by spitting out a beta particle (an electron, produced as a neutron breaks apart). This changes the atom to nitrogen 14, which is stable. Other radioactive elements do the same kind of thing--unstable ones break down, becoming other atoms.

Most atoms in most substances are the stable ones. There's a bit of radioactive stuff around in everything, but not a lot. If you think of the lump of granite, or that gold ring, there may be a few atoms that are the unstable isotopes of whatever element they are, and they will decay to something else, but most of the atoms are stable. They won't decay. (Of course, the granite can break apart as water creeps into cracks, and freezing/thawing make the cracks bigger. Eventually, it will break down to small bits (sand)...but that's just pulling molecules apart from one another, not changing the atoms of which they are made.

Rich · Post by **Rich** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:35 am

Dear Folks,

I forgot about the proverbial who made God question, its been asked for generations. Bernie, I'll try to satisfy our qwest by using the only physical source of information about who God is, the Hebrew Bible. Then maybe we can extrapolate the information of who made God.
I guess I better ask you all if this is alright? I don't want to offend anyone.

As far as the elements are concerned, what happens to all of them when in the end of our solar system everything in it is pulled into our sun and everything is blasted by its atomic furnace? When even the lump of granite and the gold ring are reduced to nothing more than nuclear fuel?

Still good to be here.

jwu · Post by **jwu** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:14 am

Some of the lighter elements will fuse together to form heavier ones when the sun collapses, and some matter will be transformed into energy. Very most of the matter will still be there though, just in form of atoms that are too heavy to fuse together any further.

However, as far as i know it is known that protons and other nuclei are slightly unstable, they have a half life of something like 10^50 years. They eventually will disintegrate, but this won't remove a significant amounth of the matter in the universe before all stars have long since burned out anyway, due to a lack of proper fuel.

jwu

ProfMoriarty · Post by **ProfMoriarty** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:50 pm

What I want to debate is the origin of all there is, all the elements, where did they come from.

The large proprtion of the elements was made in stars.

Jose · Post by **Jose** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:01 pm

ProfMoriarty wrote:The large proprtion of the elements was made in stars.

This is a bit cryptic. Can you elaborate? It is a bit off-topic for eggs vs chickens, but I'm intrigued. (besides, I've already given my answer to the egg question

)