Is there anyone who

[Wootah]

Is there anyone who accepts the Christian version of the bible and still rejects it?

[10CC]

[Replying to post 16 by nejisan]

Sonofason wrote:

Why should God convince the stubborn? What right do the stubborn have to the Kingdom of God? That is God's dwelling place. We don't have to be there. We don't deserve to be there. Why should He desire to dwell among the stubborn?

nejisan responds:

God doesn't need to convince anyone that he doesn't want to save. So who doesn't God want to save, sir?

This is your statement, not mine. I believe you should be the one to explain your own statements. Are you tying in the fact that God desires that everyone be saved?

I believe that is true. But I don't know if it is possible.

Do you know what God is doing right now? I don't.
Do you know what the angels are doing right now? I don't.
Do you know what Satan is doing right now? I don't.
Do you know of all the arrangements and/or promises that God has made since this creation first began? I don't.

Is God capable of breaking a promise?
Would He?
Could there be circumstances where by a promise was made by God that somehow restricts his movements in this world?

Who is the ruler of this world, according to the Bible?
Why is Satan not bound right now?

There are questions that can be asked that we don't have the answers to. Perhaps God can't save everyone. Perhaps He can't save us, unless it be by some loophole in some former agreement. I don't know.

Why did Christ have to die for our sins?
Why couldn't God just simply forgive all of us for our sins?

There is something going on that we do not understand, and I fear we shall not be privy to this understanding until it's over.

This is no different from saying that we have placed our faith in a totally absurd fairytale that we don't even understand at all and it makes absolutely no sense to us.

Shouldn't we instead being asking ourselves why we have even bothered to place our faith in such a convoluted and absurd fairytale?

~~~~~

The Bible claims that I'm at odds with my creator and that I am in dire need to correct this.

Why should I believe this as a matter of faith?

Can't I simply ask myself one simple question:

Have I rejected any God? And if so, was it because I have willfully chosen to embrace evil over good?

If the answers to those question are "No", then would I even care to bother placing my faith in ancient rumors that demand otherwise?

I know that I have not embraced evil over good. That is utterly absurd.

I can know for an absolute fact that there is no truth to that charge whatsoever.

I most certainly do not favor evil, or malevolent actions or behaviors, over behaviors, or moral principles, that serve the good of all.

Therefore, the charges that these ancient fables accuse me of are clearly false.

Moreover, modern scientific observations have revealed to us that death, disease, and all manner of imperfections, and what we might consider to be "evil", have been a natural part of the natural world long before humans ever showed up on this planet.

Therefore, we even have concrete observable evidence that the Biblical fables are based entirely upon a lie. It simply cannot be possible that humans have caused the evils of the world because of an alleged fall from grace.

So instead of continually making excuses for totally absurd fables, that even the most devout religious people among us confess are indeed utterly absurd and nonsensical, why don't we just recognize that they aren't worthy of believing in as a matter of pure faith?

Why beat a dead horse? Especially a dead horse that proclaims that YOU are a sinner who has turned against your creator and has chosen evil over good when you know darn well that charge isn't even true?

Unless of course you believe that charge makes sense to you.

But it seems to me that only people who truly feel that they have embraced evil and have rejected all that is good could even remotely have a reason to believe in the Biblical picture.

Decent people have absolutely no reason to believe in the bible because they know better. They know that they haven't embraced evil and rejected all that's good. So they can see that the charges the bible make are clearly false.

But it is true. We do choose evil over good, and if you were to earnestly search within yourself you would know that.

But then maybe you are the perfect man, just like Jesus. You've never done anything wrong. You've never gossiped about anyone. You've never lied to anyone about anything. You've never even stolen a pencil. You have never gazed upon pornographic material. You've never desired a married woman. You tithe your 10% every week faithfully. You love God with all your heart. Yes, you are perfect, and you are in no need of salvation. You don't need Christ, and you don't need God.


But I do.

Why would any of that make for a perfect man? Because some bronze age goatherd says so? Are you kidding?

There is no need of a god or most certainly of a human sacrifice if there is a god.

Why don't you get it?
If there is an all powerful, all loving, all benevolent, all knowing god then there is absolutely no need for a human/demigod sacrifice.

NONE.

Not only that but as DI repeatedly says, such a sacrifice is totally immoral.

And christians worship that immoral sacrifice, gross.

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 16 by nejisan]

Sonofason wrote:

Why should God convince the stubborn? What right do the stubborn have to the Kingdom of God? That is God's dwelling place. We don't have to be there. We don't deserve to be there. Why should He desire to dwell among the stubborn?

nejisan responds:

God doesn't need to convince anyone that he doesn't want to save. So who doesn't God want to save, sir?

This is your statement, not mine. I believe you should be the one to explain your own statements. Are you tying in the fact that God desires that everyone be saved?

I believe that is true. But I don't know if it is possible.

Do you know what God is doing right now? I don't.
Do you know what the angels are doing right now? I don't.
Do you know what Satan is doing right now? I don't.
Do you know of all the arrangements and/or promises that God has made since this creation first began? I don't.

Is God capable of breaking a promise?
Would He?
Could there be circumstances where by a promise was made by God that somehow restricts his movements in this world?

Who is the ruler of this world, according to the Bible?
Why is Satan not bound right now?

There are questions that can be asked that we don't have the answers to. Perhaps God can't save everyone. Perhaps He can't save us, unless it be by some loophole in some former agreement. I don't know.

Why did Christ have to die for our sins?
Why couldn't God just simply forgive all of us for our sins?

There is something going on that we do not understand, and I fear we shall not be privy to this understanding until it's over.

This is no different from saying that we have placed our faith in a totally absurd fairytale that we don't even understand at all and it makes absolutely no sense to us.

Shouldn't we instead being asking ourselves why we have even bothered to place our faith in such a convoluted and absurd fairytale?

~~~~~

The Bible claims that I'm at odds with my creator and that I am in dire need to correct this.

Why should I believe this as a matter of faith?

Can't I simply ask myself one simple question:

Have I rejected any God? And if so, was it because I have willfully chosen to embrace evil over good?

If the answers to those question are "No", then would I even care to bother placing my faith in ancient rumors that demand otherwise?

I know that I have not embraced evil over good. That is utterly absurd.

I can know for an absolute fact that there is no truth to that charge whatsoever.

I most certainly do not favor evil, or malevolent actions or behaviors, over behaviors, or moral principles, that serve the good of all.

Therefore, the charges that these ancient fables accuse me of are clearly false.

Moreover, modern scientific observations have revealed to us that death, disease, and all manner of imperfections, and what we might consider to be "evil", have been a natural part of the natural world long before humans ever showed up on this planet.

Therefore, we even have concrete observable evidence that the Biblical fables are based entirely upon a lie. It simply cannot be possible that humans have caused the evils of the world because of an alleged fall from grace.

So instead of continually making excuses for totally absurd fables, that even the most devout religious people among us confess are indeed utterly absurd and nonsensical, why don't we just recognize that they aren't worthy of believing in as a matter of pure faith?

Why beat a dead horse? Especially a dead horse that proclaims that YOU are a sinner who has turned against your creator and has chosen evil over good when you know darn well that charge isn't even true?

Unless of course you believe that charge makes sense to you.

But it seems to me that only people who truly feel that they have embraced evil and have rejected all that is good could even remotely have a reason to believe in the Biblical picture.

Decent people have absolutely no reason to believe in the bible because they know better. They know that they haven't embraced evil and rejected all that's good. So they can see that the charges the bible make are clearly false.

But it is true. We do choose evil over good, and if you were to earnestly search within yourself you would know that.

But then maybe you are the perfect man, just like Jesus. You've never done anything wrong. You've never gossiped about anyone. You've never lied to anyone about anything. You've never even stolen a pencil. You have never gazed upon pornographic material. You've never desired a married woman. You tithe your 10% every week faithfully. You love God with all your heart. Yes, you are perfect, and you are in no need of salvation. You don't need Christ, and you don't need God.


But I do.

Why would any of that make for a perfect man? Because some bronze age goatherd says so? Are you kidding?

There is no need of a god or most certainly of a human sacrifice if there is a god.

Why don't you get it?
If there is an all powerful, all loving, all benevolent, all knowing god then there is absolutely no need for a human/demigod sacrifice.

NONE.

Not only that but as DI repeatedly says, such a sacrifice is totally immoral.

And christians worship that immoral sacrifice, gross.

It seems to me that those bronze age goat herders were more intelligent than anyone I've ever spoken to within the past few moments.

[Divine Insight]

But it is true. We do choose evil over good, and if you were to earnestly search within yourself you would know that.

That's total baloney. I don't buy into that for a second.

But then maybe you are the perfect man, just like Jesus.

I don't believe that Jesus was perfect in anyway. However, it is true that he's the only character in the entire Bible that I could even remotely identify with, so yes I would definitely say that, without a doubt, I am far more like Jesus in terms of morality than any other character in the Biblical fables, that's for sure.

You've never done anything wrong. You've never gossiped about anyone. You've never lied to anyone about anything. You've never even stolen a pencil. You have never gazed upon pornographic material.

I never gossip about anyone, I have no interest in that sort of thing, and never have.

I won't say that I've never done anything that some people may consider to be "wrong", but I'm not so sure that I've ever done anything that I would consider to be wrong.

Moreover, the things that I have done in my life that I'm less than proud of I have indeed "repented" over. If you are sincerely sorry for anything you've ever done, then you have indeed repented over it.

As far as the pornographic material is concerned. No. I don't personally care for pornography at all. But then again, that could depend on your definition of what you consider to be pornographic. I personally don't consider a picture of a sexy woman to be "pornography".

If you do, then you are the one who is placing perversion on that.

You've never desired a married woman.

No. Not in a way that I would consider to be wrong. Have I noticed that some men's wives are really hot and sexy? Sure. Would I be interested in having a relationship with one those women if they were single and free? Sure.

If you want to pervert that into a "sin" by my guest. I don't buy into that kind of perversion.

Do I go home and imagining having sex with other men's wives? No, I do not.

So as far as I'm concerned I do not do what are you suggesting.

You tithe your 10% every week faithfully.

Not to a church. No.

That's just biblical mumbo jumbo. You're going by dogma. The dogma is designed to force you to be a sinner whether you like it or not. I don't accept the biblical dogma.

You love God with all your heart.

I never met a God. All I have ever heard about are rumors of jealous egoistical male-chauvinistic Gods who have far lesser moral values than myself.

I hate the God that is portrayed in the Bible. He's not better than Adolf Hitler.

I have been introduced to a female Goddess in Wicca that is really nice. I'm not sure I could say that I love her with "all of my heart" (I'm not even sure that that would mean). But She does seem like a Goddess worthy of love.

Yes, you are perfect, and you are in no need of salvation.

Morally perfect? Yes, I am.

You don't need Christ, and you don't need God.

I refuse to condone having anyone nailed to a pole to pay for any failings or imperfections I might have.

Moreover, if I am imperfect it can only be because I was created by an imperfect creator.

Anyone who needs a demigod is confessing that they are indeed a horrible person.

But I do.

Well, like I say, those are the only people who could possibly believe in the Biblical picture of God.

So you'd be willing to nail Jesus to a pole to pay for you sins and win you a free ticket into a paradise where you believe you don't even belong?

I can't personally say that I would have much respect for you if that's the case.

I would rather go to hell.

In fact, I have absolutely no desire to go to any paradise where I don't belong. And if I had to condone having an innocent demigod nailed to a pole to pay for my ticket in then I most certainly wouldn't deserve to be there.

So if that's the only kind of people who will be permitted into that so-called "paradise" then I most certainly wouldn't want to be around them. I'd much rather go to hell and suffer with the decent people.

[10CC]

[Replying to post 22 by Sonofason]

It seems to me that those bronze age goat herders were more intelligent than anyone I've ever spoken to within the past few moments.

You've never gossiped about anyone. You've never lied to anyone about anything. You've never even stolen a pencil. You have never gazed upon pornographic material. You've never desired a married woman. You tithe your 10% every week faithfully. You love God with all your heart

So I'll ask again.

Why would any of that make for a perfect man?

[nejisan]

[Replying to post 16 by nejisan]

Sonofason wrote:

Why should God convince the stubborn? What right do the stubborn have to the Kingdom of God? That is God's dwelling place. We don't have to be there. We don't deserve to be there. Why should He desire to dwell among the stubborn?

nejisan responds:

God doesn't need to convince anyone that he doesn't want to save. So who doesn't God want to save, sir?

This is your statement, not mine. I believe you should be the one to explain your own statements. Are you tying in the fact that God desires that everyone be saved?

How could you possibly know this is a fact? I did examine my statement before I posted it, I uhhhh... y'know, try to make a habit of it. This part of your post doesn't seem coherent to me. Explain what? It was an answer to your challenge "why should god convince the 'stubborn', and then a question that could possibly help us make sense of your logic here. You don't think God has an obligation to save people. Okay, fine. So why is he doing it? And, why isn't he doing more of it? Just asking. If you don't know, that's also fine. It just seems weird that he convinced you and didn't deem me important enough for that little epiphany. Especially since he allegedly loves me so much that he'd have his offspring brutally murdered for me, but then neglects to convince me of this so it's in vain.

I'm reminded of a cartoon where a villain is repeatedly told " I'm not sure how well this plan was thought through.... master?"

I believe that is true. But I don't know if it is possible.

Do you know what God is doing right now? I don't.
Do you know what the angels are doing right now? I don't.
Do you know what Satan is doing right now? I don't.
Do you know of all the arrangements and/or promises that God has made since this creation first began? I don't.

Not relevant. I don't really care about the things you don't know. If we both did this we could go for years.

Is God capable of breaking a promise?
Would He?
Could there be circumstances where by a promise was made by God that somehow restricts his movements in this world?

That sounds like a lot of backpedalling. When you're trying to invent reasons to explain God's obvious lack of action, the red flags should start going up like crazy. Why would God interfere with himself? When I want to go to the bathroom I don't take the longest route, or throw needless obstacles in my own path, I just go there. I manage to accomplish lots of things using this method. Surely God is smarter than me. I can't imagine he would make it impossible for himself to accomplish his own goals. Especially since he loves me and doesn't want me to suffer, and if he gambled like this it would put me at risk of eternal torment and he can't possibly be that dense... right?

No worries anyway, right? He is omnipotent, so he can do anything. Including not making stupid promises...

Who is the ruler of this world, according to the Bible?
Why is Satan not bound right now?

There are questions that can be asked that we don't have the answers to. Perhaps God can't save everyone. Perhaps He can't save us, unless it be by some loophole in some former agreement. I don't know.

Why did Christ have to die for our sins?
Why couldn't God just simply forgive all of us for our sins?

There is something going on that we do not understand, and I fear we shall not be privy to this understanding until it's over.

More of the same. You should focus less on what you don't know about God and talk more about what you do know. Don't get me wrong your honesty is refreshing, but it contributes nothing to the discussion. It's just filler wasting my time reading it and yours writing it. We don't need to know what going on in heaven to know there isn't one. The most important question regarding Christianity is the salvation of human souls, and you can't even be coherent about that. Seriously? This is awful. You have no idea why people aren't being convinced because if your projection of God were real they would be. It would be undeniable. Yet here I sit a former believer. How? You seem to think it's a grand mystery that will be revealed when the final act is done. You say this because there isn't any answer that addresses all the facts and answers all the objections neatly. So it must just be beyond us. The only problem with that? There is an answer that explains it all rather neatly, that this God isn't real.

[Sonofason]

But it is true. We do choose evil over good, and if you were to earnestly search within yourself you would know that.

That's total baloney. I don't buy into that for a second.

But then maybe you are the perfect man, just like Jesus.

I don't believe that Jesus was perfect in anyway. However, it is true that he's the only character in the entire Bible that I could even remotely identify with, so yes I would definitely say that, without a doubt, I am far more like Jesus in terms of morality than any other character in the Biblical fables, that's for sure.

You've never done anything wrong. You've never gossiped about anyone. You've never lied to anyone about anything. You've never even stolen a pencil. You have never gazed upon pornographic material.

I never gossip about anyone, I have no interest in that sort of thing, and never have.

I won't say that I've never done anything that some people may consider to be "wrong", but I'm not so sure that I've ever done anything that I would consider to be wrong.

Moreover, the things that I have done in my life that I'm less than proud of I have indeed "repented" over. If you are sincerely sorry for anything you've ever done, then you have indeed repented over it.

As far as the pornographic material is concerned. No. I don't personally care for pornography at all. But then again, that could depend on your definition of what you consider to be pornographic. I personally don't consider a picture of a sexy woman to be "pornography".

If you do, then you are the one who is placing perversion on that.

You've never desired a married woman.

No. Not in a way that I would consider to be wrong. Have I noticed that some men's wives are really hot and sexy? Sure. Would I be interested in having a relationship with one those women if they were single and free? Sure.

If you want to pervert that into a "sin" by my guest. I don't buy into that kind of perversion.

Do I go home and imagining having sex with other men's wives? No, I do not.

So as far as I'm concerned I do not do what are you suggesting.

You tithe your 10% every week faithfully.

Not to a church. No.

That's just biblical mumbo jumbo. You're going by dogma. The dogma is designed to force you to be a sinner whether you like it or not. I don't accept the biblical dogma.

You love God with all your heart.

I never met a God. All I have ever heard about are rumors of jealous egoistical male-chauvinistic Gods who have far lesser moral values than myself.

I hate the God that is portrayed in the Bible. He's not better than Adolf Hitler.

I have been introduced to a female Goddess in Wicca that is really nice. I'm not sure I could say that I love her with "all of my heart" (I'm not even sure that that would mean). But She does seem like a Goddess worthy of love.

Yes, you are perfect, and you are in no need of salvation.

Morally perfect? Yes, I am.

You don't need Christ, and you don't need God.

I refuse to condone having anyone nailed to a pole to pay for any failings or imperfections I might have.

Moreover, if I am imperfect it can only be because I was created by an imperfect creator.

Anyone who needs a demigod is confessing that they are indeed a horrible person.

But I do.

Well, like I say, those are the only people who could possibly believe in the Biblical picture of God.

So you'd be willing to nail Jesus to a pole to pay for you sins and win you a free ticket into a paradise where you believe you don't even belong?

I can't personally say that I would have much respect for you if that's the case.

I would rather go to hell.

In fact, I have absolutely no desire to go to any paradise where I don't belong. And if I had to condone having an innocent demigod nailed to a pole to pay for my ticket in then I most certainly wouldn't deserve to be there.

So if that's the only kind of people who will be permitted into that so-called "paradise" then I most certainly wouldn't want to be around them. I'd much rather go to hell and suffer with the decent people.

Let me tell you something. I have not nailed Jesus to a cross either. He willingly was nailed to a cross to pay my debt for my sin. He died to pay your debt for your sin as well. I would not ask anyone to do such a thing either. But then, if this is what should have been required of me, that I should be separated from God because of my sin, then I am truly indebted to Jesus forever for having paid this debt for me. Death is separation. Eternal death is eternal separation. From what? From God.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. If you should find yourself in hell, it is because you have shoved aside God's every effort to keep you out.

You go to hell by rejecting Jesus' gift of salvation, by saying, "Nah, no thanks, I don't think I need that".

Gifts are only gifts if they are received.

[nejisan]

[Replying to post 26 by Sonofason]

No. I didn't create hell. I didn't make the rules for this little cosmic game. I haven't made any outrageous demands of anyone.

No one would choose eternal torment just to do it. This is what Christians tell themselves to explain non-believers. If there is a hell I will NOT go there willingly, so please tell me, how will I get there? Will the angels fly me? Will God transport me there with his own power? How will I get from here to judgement to hell?

Also, if all I need to avoid this is to be convinced that he is real, then why isn't he convincing me? Let me guess, because he's mysterious...

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 26 by Sonofason]

No. I didn't create hell. I didn't make the rules for this little cosmic game. I haven't made any outrageous demands of anyone.

No one would choose eternal torment just to do it. This is what Christians tell themselves to explain non-believers. If there is a hell I will NOT go there willingly, so please tell me, how will I get there? Will the angels fly me? Will God transport me there with his own power? How will I get from here to judgement to hell?

Also, if all I need to avoid this is to be convinced that he is real, then why isn't he convincing me? Let me guess, because he's mysterious...

I'm sorry, did I inadvertently suggest that you created hell?
What is hell anyway? Let me tell you what my understanding of hell is. Hell is being in a God forsaken place. In other words, hell is existing without God. You are presently not existing without Him. You are simply existing without acknowledging Him. There is a difference. Eternal separation from God is Hell. There is one thing that can keep you out, and only one thing, and that is God. God has provided one means for us, depraved human beings, to escape the judgement that the debt of our sin condemns us to. It is a gift of salvation and eternal life that is offered only through Christ. You either accept that gift, or you don't. But I assure you, every knee shall bow to Him. If it be on this side of the grave it shall be unto salvation and eternal life by God's grace. If it be on the other side of the grave, it shall be unto eternal separation from God, which can be likened to eternal destruction.

It's just faith. You just ask. If I can be saved, Jesus save me. It's so simple, it's perfect. It just takes faith.

[10CC]

[Replying to post 26 by Sonofason]

No. I didn't create hell. I didn't make the rules for this little cosmic game. I haven't made any outrageous demands of anyone.

No one would choose eternal torment just to do it. This is what Christians tell themselves to explain non-believers. If there is a hell I will NOT go there willingly, so please tell me, how will I get there? Will the angels fly me? Will God transport me there with his own power? How will I get from here to judgement to hell?

Also, if all I need to avoid this is to be convinced that he is real, then why isn't he convincing me? Let me guess, because he's mysterious...

I'm sorry, did I inadvertently suggest that you created hell?
What is hell anyway? Let me tell you what my understanding of hell is. Hell is being in a God forsaken place. In other words, hell is existing without God. You are presently not existing without Him. You are simply existing without acknowledging Him. There is a difference. Eternal separation from God is Hell. There is one thing that can keep you out, and only one thing, and that is God. God has provided one means for us, depraved human beings, to escape the judgement that the debt of our sin condemns us to. It is a gift of salvation and eternal life that is offered only through Christ. You either accept that gift, or you don't. But I assure you, every knee shall bow to Him. If it be on this side of the grave it shall be unto salvation and eternal life by God's grace. If it be on the other side of the grave, it shall be unto eternal separation from God, which can be likened to eternal destruction.

It's just faith. You just ask. If I can be saved, Jesus save me. It's so simple, it's perfect. It just takes faith.

Who was it created us thus?

[nejisan]

[Replying to post 26 by Sonofason]

No. I didn't create hell. I didn't make the rules for this little cosmic game. I haven't made any outrageous demands of anyone.

No one would choose eternal torment just to do it. This is what Christians tell themselves to explain non-believers. If there is a hell I will NOT go there willingly, so please tell me, how will I get there? Will the angels fly me? Will God transport me there with his own power? How will I get from here to judgement to hell?

Also, if all I need to avoid this is to be convinced that he is real, then why isn't he convincing me? Let me guess, because he's mysterious...

I'm sorry, did I inadvertently suggest that you created hell?
What is hell anyway? Let me tell you what my understanding of hell is. Hell is being in a God forsaken place. In other words, hell is existing without God. You are presently not existing without Him. You are simply existing without acknowledging Him. There is a difference. Eternal separation from God is Hell. There is one thing that can keep you out, and only one thing, and that is God. God has provided one means for us, depraved human beings, to escape the judgement that the debt of our sin condemns us to. It is a gift of salvation and eternal life that is offered only through Christ. You either accept that gift, or you don't. But I assure you, every knee shall bow to Him. If it be on this side of the grave it shall be unto salvation and eternal life by God's grace. If it be on the other side of the grave, it shall be unto eternal separation from God, which can be likened to eternal destruction.

It's just faith. You just ask. If I can be saved, Jesus save me. It's so simple, it's perfect. It just takes faith.

It doesn't matter what hell is, cuz we all know the gist of it is that it's bad. You're telling me what you believe it to be is fine, but it doesn't change the point. You intentionally dodged the point I made when I said I didn't create hell. I never accused you of saying that. But if it exists then someone had to create it, right? So who did that? And who created the rules determining who would live there? And who created humans faulty and then commanded them to live to an impossible standard? Who made the the sacrifice necessary? Who made acknowledging the sacrifice necessary? I think I've made my point.

I already did the faith thing and it didn't work out. I had all these questions and Christians don't have a lot of answers. It takes more than faith, you should stop saying it only takes faith because that's either very naive or incredibly misleading.

I'm off to bed. Take care.