A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

[marketandchurch]

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:

Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

• Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

[Danmark]

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Danmark:
The world has benefited greatly from the work of atheists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_at ... technology
There you will find a list of about 200 famous scientists who were or are atheists.

shnarkle: True!, but so what? Those benefits aren't because they were atheists, but more likely despite that fact. More people have been murdered by atheists than any other segment of society in world history.

[emphasis mine]

This is simply factually wrong. The statement is, at best, very misleading.

Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."

Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."

And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in "religious" states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our ... d-religion

And please, don't bring up the tired old arguments about Stalin (raised a Catholic) and Hitler, who claimed to be a Christian.

[ttruscott]

...

[Again, this odd way of posting makes it more difficult than it should be to accurately respond. You've included in the blue 'quotation paragraph' things you did not say without attribution]

...

I agree - though I do like his range of thought his expression of his thoughts seems to depend upon the repetition of his name an awful lot.

... the anti-conventional way of responding is wearing thin and getting to be too much to bother with.

Peace, Ted

[Danmark]

...

[Again, this odd way of posting makes it more difficult than it should be to accurately respond. You've included in the blue 'quotation paragraph' things you did not say without attribution]

...

I agree - though I do like his range of thought his expression of his thoughts seems to depend upon the repetition of his name an awful lot.

... the anti-conventional way of responding is wearing thin and getting to be too much to bother with.

Peace, Ted

Thanks Ted. And I think we are both being clear that we are only talking about format, not content. I know there are many here who would be willing to assist re: BBCode and clarity of expression. Oavisjo for one has been helpful and PM'd me about some of the idiosyncrasies of negotiating this forum.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 736 by Danmark]

hnarkle wrote:

-------------------------------
Danmark:
The world has benefited greatly from the work of atheists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_at ... technology
There you will find a list of about 200 famous scientists who were or are atheists.

shnarkle: True!, but so what? Those benefits aren't because they were atheists, but more likely despite that fact. More people have been murdered by atheists than any other segment of society in world history.
[emphasis mine]

dan: This is simply factually wrong. The statement is, at best, very misleading.

shnarkle: It is simply true, and not misleading in the slightest. Those atheists who have murdered do so as a direct result of their beliefs, while those professing christians do so as a direct violation of the life and teachings of Christ.
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dan: Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."

shnarkle: See above. Correlation doesn't necessarily equate with causation.
------------------------------

dan: Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."

And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in "religious" states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our ... nformation...

And please, don't bring up the tired old arguments about Stalin (raised a Catholic) and Hitler, who claimed to be a Christian.

shnarkle: Why should I bring any more arguments into the equation when you aren't providing any, much less refuting what I've already posted? Since you're so eager for me to stop providing arguments, and aren't interested in advancing the discussion; I"ll move on.

[Danmark]

shnarkle wrote:
More people have been murdered by atheists than any other segment of society in world history.
....
Correlation doesn't necessarily equate with causation.
------------------------------

That's it? That's your sole argument, that' correlation is not the same as causation?'
Of course that is correct. Correlation does not mean causation. Causation in these matters is always more difficult. But that is all YOU have done, with your claim that most people are murdered by atheists, except you have not even demonstrated a correlation, let alone causation with your 'wild guess' claim about atheists and murderers. You have simply assumed causation without any evidence, or data of any kind. As I say, you can't even demonstrate a correlation.

I have given you explicit and massive data that shows a correlation that turns your 'wild guess/wishful thinking' conclusion on its head.

Can you even demonstrate correlation for your presumption? You certainly haven't shown causation.

Since you have not, and I presume can not, I am not surprised you say " .... I"ll move on."

I may do the same if you insist on using the bad formating you've been requested to improve. It simply makes responding to your posts more time consuming, even tho' it is easy to refute them.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 739 by shnarkle]

It is simply true, and not misleading in the slightest. Those atheists who have murdered do so as a direct result of their beliefs, while those professing christians do so as a direct violation of the life and teachings of Christ.

Not to sound rude but this is ridiculous. Tell that to the native-americans slaughtered wholesale by Christians tell that to the Aztecs and Mayans. Not to mention I can very EASILY verify your statements are false what evidence do you have what shred of evidence do you have to support your statement. How can an Atheist be compelled to commit murder based on his/her belief that there is no observable evidence to suggest the existence of a god(s). There is no atheistic commandment to go commit murder that is just a horrid and vastly disturbing mischaracterization of what an atheist is.

I don't know I have been in and out of this thread and at page 74 I have come to the conclusion that the remaining arguments for a good god is that atheists simply deserve to go to hell. If that is the case how can a single lifetime of wrong = an eternity of punishment?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to Danmark]

dan posted: That's it? That's your sole argument, that' correlation is not the same as causation?'
Of course that is correct. Correlation does not mean causation. Causation in these matters is always more difficult. But that is all YOU have done, with your claim that most people are murdered by atheists, except you have not even demonstrated a correlation, let alone causation with your 'wild guess' claim about atheists and murderers. You have simply assumed causation without any evidence, or data of any kind. As I say, you can't even demonstrate a correlation.

I have given you explicit and massive data that shows a correlation that turns your 'wild guess/wishful thinking' conclusion on its head.

Can you even demonstrate correlation for your presumption? You certainly haven't shown causation.

Since you have not, and I presume can not, I am not surprised you say " .... I"ll move on."

I may do the same if you insist on using the bad formating you've been requested to improve. It simply makes responding to your posts more time consuming, even tho' it is easy to refute them.

shnarkle: I haven't shown causation. I've merely pointed out by using the same pointless argument that you have, that you are haven't proven anything. Funny how you can see that in my posts, but not your own. Yes, move on why don't you?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 742 by shnarkle]

Actually he has pointed out using evidence to support his claim shall I link the data to you?

Not to mention the bible specifically tells its adherents to murder homosexuals, witches/mages, adulterers etc.

"Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries" - Zuckerman

"atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%)."
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty ... theism.pdf

in fact given that atheists represent less than 1% of the prison population while simultaneously representing anywhere from 5-15% of the general population one could argue that Atheists behave better than religious.

Furthermore 91% of deathrow inmates at sing-sing prison identified as Christian vs .3% who identified as atheist meaning a Christian is 303.3 times more likely to commit murder than an atheist. considering that Christians make up 73% of the US population they are sorely performing in the murder area. This suggests that Christians typically have on average poor conflict resolution skills and/or are less capable of resolving issues without the use of violence.

so in short I would be more worried about the Christian next door than the atheist.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Not to mention the bible specifically tells its adherents to murder homosexuals, witches/mages, adulterers etc.

shnarkle: Not really. In fact it tells only those who are part of the cult of Israel to kill (not murder) sodomites, murderers, witches, etc.
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"Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries" - Zuckerman

shnarkle: Let's see that link.
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"atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%)."
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty ... theism.pdf

in fact given that atheists represent less than 1% of the prison population while simultaneously representing anywhere from 5-15% of the general population one could argue that Atheists behave better than religious.

shnarkle: One could argue, but so far no one has. One could argue that atheists just don't get caught, one could argue that they have better lawyers, one could argue that atheists are better at framing others for their own crimes.
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Furthermore 91% of deathrow inmates at sing-sing prison identified as Christian vs .3% who identified as atheist meaning a Christian is 303.3 times more likely to commit murder than an atheist. considering that Christians make up 73% of the US population they are sorely performing in the murder area. This suggests that Christians typically have on average poor conflict resolution skills and/or are less capable of resolving issues without the use of violence.

shnarkle Again, so what? A good God will send them to hell just as readily as He'll send anyone else who rejects Him. You're conflating those who practice the Christian religion with those Who God has elected to salvation. Actually, you're conflating those who don't practice the teachings of Jesus with those who do.
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so in short I would be more worried about the Christian next door than the atheist.

shnarkle: So would I, but again so what? This has nothing to do with this discussion. You and everyone else in this discussion seems bent on confusing those who profess to be members of a religion(as well as those who aren't) with those who are actually elected by God to salvation.

[Danmark]

shnarkle: One could argue, but so far no one has. One could argue that atheists just don't get caught, one could argue that they have better lawyers, one could argue that atheists are better at framing others for their own crimes.

Then one would be forced to conclude that atheists must be much, much smarter.

That would be the logical conclusion of the argument you suggest. If you don't like that argument, perhaps you can advance another that, "One could argue, but so far no one has."