(this is all conjecture from the twisted mind of goodwithoutgod, so dont bother to attack my numbers, it is just a thought exercise, not meant to be an accurate breakdown of the subject)
I was thinking today....you hear the phrase "power of prayer" often from the faithful...and I was thinking...since there is what....8 billion ppl in the world, and 80%ish purport to believe in a god...so it is probably safe to say that at least 6 billion ppl believe in a god, lets just half that for argument's sake...so the world has 3 billion people that believe in a god, and most likely utter a silent prayer at least once a day..from the mild "please god let me get to work on time", to the frightening "please god dont let him kill me" type prayers. From mild to moderate to fervent, 3 billion people probably utter one prayer a day....just go with it for the moment...so out of those 3 billion daily prayers, how many get answered?
The very few that appear to be answered I posit it is due to the lottery of chance and coincidence. However, if you are the believer who say prayed "oh god let my numbers come in on the lottery pick" (just like every other faithful person who bought a ticket)...and one of those believers wins the lottery...he or she is going to think, Oh my god, he answered my prayer...I am living proof....no, no I say there was 3 billion pulls on the the one armed bandit of prayers game machine and your pull happened to come up with the three lemons.....but the bible says ask and ye shall receive right? for example
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." (Matthew 7:7)
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 18:19)
"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:22)
"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 11:24)
so think about it this way, the handful of prayers that seem to have been answered is not an indication that prayer works, rather we must look at it from the other angle, why didnt the other 2,999,999,992 ish prayers get answered? To me this is an indication that there is no power of prayer, rather it is just the lottery of chance and coincidence.
Opinions? thoughts?
Power of prayer or lottery of coincidence?
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goodwithoutgod
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Post #11
I have seen God answer too many prayers in my life and in the lives of other believers to ever attribute them to coincidence, especially when some of the answers have involved information I or others couldn't possibly know.
For example, I can list dozens of times people have needed money, prayed and have had the EXACT amount to the penny come to them, sometimes anonymously (cash left in the mailbox or at the front door), sometimes from friends or family who just appeared with money in hand, sometimes through the mail (an unexpected refund, for example). And the astounding thing is that these people have told nobody but God what the amount needed and what they needed it for -- and they get the exact amount of $402.34 or $105.22 or whatever -- right to the penny on the day they need it. It's the specificity of the amounts needed and the timing and the number of times it has happened that make it impossible to call them coincidences.
Then there are the times the Lord has directed me to pray about something for somebody else that I didn't know they needed. For example, on one occasion, the Holy Spirit prompted me to pray for healing for a friend because of an injustice done to her by someone I didn't even know years before I even met her. A few days later, she called to tell me that the Lord had healed her of an injustice done to her by this other person in the past. There is no way I could have known that apart from God.
And that's not the only time that has happened for me -- or for others who have the gift of intercessory prayer. Those with that specific gift are often awakened in the middle of the night to pray for somebody who is ill or in trouble -- sometimes on the other side of the world -- and tragedy has been averted.
I recounted a miraculous healing I myself had in answer to prayer in another thread on this forum, as well as two other miraculous healings of people I know -- with before and after medical evidence in the form of scans, endoscopes and other tests showing the problem (in two cases, a large tumour) and then the absence of the problem following prayer. And there are others I could list, but three with scientific evidence and doctor's attestation should be enough.
I know some people who have kept prayer journals down through the years and the answers that have come to the prayers that they prayed. Again, when you see them answered time and time again and so specifically, in ways that sometimes couldn't even be anticipated, you realize the odds against that many coincidences is so great that you can't doubt God.
For example, I can list dozens of times people have needed money, prayed and have had the EXACT amount to the penny come to them, sometimes anonymously (cash left in the mailbox or at the front door), sometimes from friends or family who just appeared with money in hand, sometimes through the mail (an unexpected refund, for example). And the astounding thing is that these people have told nobody but God what the amount needed and what they needed it for -- and they get the exact amount of $402.34 or $105.22 or whatever -- right to the penny on the day they need it. It's the specificity of the amounts needed and the timing and the number of times it has happened that make it impossible to call them coincidences.
Then there are the times the Lord has directed me to pray about something for somebody else that I didn't know they needed. For example, on one occasion, the Holy Spirit prompted me to pray for healing for a friend because of an injustice done to her by someone I didn't even know years before I even met her. A few days later, she called to tell me that the Lord had healed her of an injustice done to her by this other person in the past. There is no way I could have known that apart from God.
And that's not the only time that has happened for me -- or for others who have the gift of intercessory prayer. Those with that specific gift are often awakened in the middle of the night to pray for somebody who is ill or in trouble -- sometimes on the other side of the world -- and tragedy has been averted.
I recounted a miraculous healing I myself had in answer to prayer in another thread on this forum, as well as two other miraculous healings of people I know -- with before and after medical evidence in the form of scans, endoscopes and other tests showing the problem (in two cases, a large tumour) and then the absence of the problem following prayer. And there are others I could list, but three with scientific evidence and doctor's attestation should be enough.
I know some people who have kept prayer journals down through the years and the answers that have come to the prayers that they prayed. Again, when you see them answered time and time again and so specifically, in ways that sometimes couldn't even be anticipated, you realize the odds against that many coincidences is so great that you can't doubt God.
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goodwithoutgod
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Post #12
[Replying to post 11 by Overcomer]
well, that really is an astounding witness.....hard to believe, but astounding. My parents swear to have witnessed the most amazing things, always happens in their church when there isnt a non believer around oddly.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... e-results/
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/amb ... nce-prayer
well, that really is an astounding witness.....hard to believe, but astounding. My parents swear to have witnessed the most amazing things, always happens in their church when there isnt a non believer around oddly.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... e-results/
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/amb ... nce-prayer
Post #13
[Replying to post 11 by Overcomer]
Maybe you're psychic and didn't realize it. I honestly find that easier to believe at this point. Or at the very least, on the same level.
My mom would tell me stories like that. Months later, forgetting that she told me, would mention a part that she conveniently left out. That would in turn make her argument completely invalid. Example:
She needed money to help pay some bills and didn't know what to do. Miraculously, some stranger came into her office and just gave her $300.
And on top of that, she somehow finds ways to pay her other bills.
The truth was that the stranger wasn't a stranger. It was a client who was showing his appreciation for her helping him collect on retirement and disability from the military which got him 2000+ dollar per month. He had been getting the run around for years until coming to her for help.
The other ways she was getting her bills paid was through friends she'd known for over a decade lending her the money until she got back on her feet.
Point is. I don't believe at all that those things you mentioned happened just like that. They, just like many others do in order to validate their faith, leave out important information or just flat out lie.
I have plenty of friends who would tell me how much they love their love and how god answers all their prayers whenever they attempt to prove their faith. But just a few days before that and almost every week, these same people are stressed out, complaining, and literally crying because life is soooo miserable.
You my friend have also just made the argument that God can and does apparently make money appear out of nowhere for people. So don't let me catch you claiming later on that God won't just hand you this or that.
Maybe you're psychic and didn't realize it. I honestly find that easier to believe at this point. Or at the very least, on the same level.
My mom would tell me stories like that. Months later, forgetting that she told me, would mention a part that she conveniently left out. That would in turn make her argument completely invalid. Example:
She needed money to help pay some bills and didn't know what to do. Miraculously, some stranger came into her office and just gave her $300.
And on top of that, she somehow finds ways to pay her other bills.
The truth was that the stranger wasn't a stranger. It was a client who was showing his appreciation for her helping him collect on retirement and disability from the military which got him 2000+ dollar per month. He had been getting the run around for years until coming to her for help.
The other ways she was getting her bills paid was through friends she'd known for over a decade lending her the money until she got back on her feet.
Point is. I don't believe at all that those things you mentioned happened just like that. They, just like many others do in order to validate their faith, leave out important information or just flat out lie.
I have plenty of friends who would tell me how much they love their love and how god answers all their prayers whenever they attempt to prove their faith. But just a few days before that and almost every week, these same people are stressed out, complaining, and literally crying because life is soooo miserable.
You my friend have also just made the argument that God can and does apparently make money appear out of nowhere for people. So don't let me catch you claiming later on that God won't just hand you this or that.
