Another Bible Contradiction

[Ooberman]

John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


If Jesus is God, as it is claimed, then at least Pontius Pilate, the Apostles, and the 500, and.... well, anyone who has ever seen Jesus, has seen God.


Yet, the Bible says no one has.

A clear contradiction within the Bible.

[Artie]

Here's the English Standard Version's translation of that verse:

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known."

The verse says that nobody has ever seen God the Father except Jesus Christ.

Jacob even wrestled with God. "30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.� http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... 2032:22-32

Peniel literally means "face of God".

[Ooberman]

Here's the English Standard Version's translation of that verse:

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known."

The verse says that nobody has ever seen God the Father except Jesus Christ. This is obvious by the fact that it goes on to speak of Jesus being at the Father's side -- the proof that he has seen God the Father.

It goes on to say that Jesus has made God the Father known. How? By being God the Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead who, as God Incarnate, came to earth.

The fact that the verse is talking about no one except Jesus seeing God the Father is supported in the Old Testament. We read in Exodus 33:20 that God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� This states clearly that God the Father did not allow any human being to look at him for their own good. This also means that Jesus couldn't just have been a man, but had to be God as well or else he would not have been able to look upon God the Father either.

Some people have suggested there is a contradiction between that Ex. 33:20 and Ex. 33:11 which speaks of Moses seeing God face to face. However, the Hebrew phrase translated "face to face" is a figure of speech meaning that Moses and the Lord communed -- something one does in worship and prayer without seeing God. It was never meant to be taken literally and to do so would be wrong.

So we can conclude that there is no contradiction in the verse from the gospel of John or between the verses in Exodus.

So Jesus WASN'T human?

And, If Jesus was God, are you saying that no one saw his face?

[Strider324]

Some people have suggested there is a contradiction between that Ex. 33:20 and Ex. 33:11 which speaks of Moses seeing God face to face. However, the Hebrew phrase translated "face to face" is a figure of speech meaning that Moses and the Lord communed -- something one does in worship and prayer without seeing God. It was never meant to be taken literally and to do so would be wrong.

So we can conclude that there is no contradiction in the verse from the gospel of John or between the verses in Exodus.

You write this as if you have some authority to make this claim or are referencing some authority. Please provide a non-apologetic source of scholarship that affirms this claim about figures of speech. Absent that, this sounds like yet another convenient excuse for ignoring a contradiction.

[Ooberman]

It always seems the same on these kinds of issues. We point out a clear problem, they cite a counter example - as if that clears it up (it only proves the Bible has a verse for any position and is inherently contradictory) and the Christians never come back to discuss .


I get a feeling they don't know how to answer but just feel "aw, they just don't get it. Besides, even if there is a contradiction, it isn't because there can't be - I just haven't figured it out yet."


These, I believe, are the psychological defense mechanisms Believers use to deflect criticisms of what they BELIEVE to be true, even if they can't show why.

It reminds me of the horrible but over-confident singers on American Idol during the selection process. Everyone can clearly see they are horrible singers, but in the post-try out interview they keep claiming they truly are a great singer and they will be famous some day.

There is nothing you can tell them to prove to them they are bad singers. Somehow, their believe is ingrained into them - probably from family and friends who themselves have no musical taste.

Likewise, Christianity seems to be ingrained into people by other who have similarly poor self-reflective and logical skills.

[Davesgud]

John 5:31“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.
John 8:14Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am

It's classic Jesus!

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Here's the English Standard Version's translation of that verse:

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known."

The verse says that nobody has ever seen God the Father except Jesus Christ. This is obvious by the fact that it goes on to speak of Jesus being at the Father's side -- the proof that he has seen God the Father.

It goes on to say that Jesus has made God the Father known. How? By being God the Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead who, as God Incarnate, came to earth.

The fact that the verse is talking about no one except Jesus seeing God the Father is supported in the Old Testament. We read in Exodus 33:20 that God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� This states clearly that God the Father did not allow any human being to look at him for their own good. This also means that Jesus couldn't just have been a man, but had to be God as well or else he would not have been able to look upon God the Father either.

Some people have suggested there is a contradiction between that Ex. 33:20 and Ex. 33:11 which speaks of Moses seeing God face to face. However, the Hebrew phrase translated "face to face" is a figure of speech meaning that Moses and the Lord communed -- something one does in worship and prayer without seeing God. It was never meant to be taken literally and to do so would be wrong.

So we can conclude that there is no contradiction in the verse from the gospel of John or between the verses in Exodus.

If you are going to quote scripture, at least quote it accurately and completely. What you have provided here is a complete misrepresentation of what Exodus 33 actually says. Moses DID see God. Moses saw God's BACKSIDE.

Exodus 33:
[17] And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
[18] And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
[19] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

The statement contained in John 1:18:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

is in fact incorrect, just as the OP suggests.

[1213]

John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


If Jesus is God, as it is claimed, then at least Pontius Pilate, the Apostles, and the 500, and.... well, anyone who has ever seen Jesus, has seen God.


Yet, the Bible says no one has.

A clear contradiction within the Bible.

According to the Bible, Jesus is the image of God.

in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them.
2 Cor. 4:4

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15

If you have seen the image, you have seen the source of the image? But not face to face.

[Davesgud]

[Replying to post 16 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Wow.you just refuse to see the contradiction.

In the OT Moses sees God. yes?
In the NT no one has seen God. yes?
Which is it?

You are hiding behind pretend intellectual argument.

Either God has been seen or he hasn't. But it can't be both.
If people saw Jesus and Jesus is fully God fully man then God was seen.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 16 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Wow.you just refuse to see the contradiction.

In the OT Moses sees God. yes?
In the NT no one has seen God. yes?
Which is it?

You are hiding behind pretend intellectual argument.

Either God has been seen or he hasn't. But it can't be both.
If people saw Jesus and Jesus is fully God fully man then God was seen.

Tired of the Nonsense Wrote:
The statement contained in John 1:18:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

is in fact incorrect, just as the OP suggests.

[Ooberman]

John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


If Jesus is God, as it is claimed, then at least Pontius Pilate, the Apostles, and the 500, and.... well, anyone who has ever seen Jesus, has seen God.


Yet, the Bible says no one has.

A clear contradiction within the Bible.

According to the Bible, Jesus is the image of God.

in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them.
2 Cor. 4:4

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:15

If you have seen the image, you have seen the source of the image? But not face to face.

I'm not seeing how adding verses is helping you. It's just adding to one side of the contradiction.

Do you agree there is a contradiction? You quote "invisible God" but there are other verses in which God is visible.


It's not a matter of telling us God is invisible. If that's your position, the Bible contradicts this in other places.

It's not an "apparent contradiction" isn't an ACTUAL contradiction.