In last week's debate between young-earth creationist (YEC) Ken Ham and science advocate Bill Nye, the former tried to get around the problem of too many animals on the Ark by saying that Noah didn't bring two of each species, but two of each kind of animal. Among YECs, Ham is hardly alone in using this term as a stand-in for actual biological taxonomy, and, like other YECs, he didn't offer a scientifically rigorous or even logically coherent definition of the term (he said it was 'like a family,' but made an exception for the family Hominidae, which includes both humans and the other great apes).
Can our resident creationists do better?
Debate questions: What, in biological terms, is a 'kind?' How does this term relate to biological categories, like 'species,' 'genus,' or 'family?' How many 'kinds' are there? What scientific justification do you have for using this term instead of well-established biological taxonomy?
Lastly, if you can't provide a coherent definition, will you agree to stop using the word 'kind' in debates about biology?
Creationists: give a coherent definition of "kind"
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Haven
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Creationists: give a coherent definition of "kind"
Post #1
Last edited by Haven on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #101
[Replying to post 94 by The Me's]
The bible is a work of fiction should I take the events of the Iliad and Odyssey as true to?
Star wars says in its opening
"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...."
it never states it is a work of fiction and is presented as historically accurate. Should I believe this is true to?
No I think not until someone verifies that all of the stories in the bible are true it is a work of fiction in my opinion.
On a side note there is not enough water on this planet to have a global flood, sooooo in my opinion it remains a MYTH.
The bible is a work of fiction should I take the events of the Iliad and Odyssey as true to?
Star wars says in its opening
"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...."
it never states it is a work of fiction and is presented as historically accurate. Should I believe this is true to?
No I think not until someone verifies that all of the stories in the bible are true it is a work of fiction in my opinion.
On a side note there is not enough water on this planet to have a global flood, sooooo in my opinion it remains a MYTH.
Post #102
[Replying to post 99 by DanieltheDragon]
Ahh so the Mosopatamians took a canoe to visit the native Americans and the Mayans?
Ahh so the Mosopatamians took a canoe to visit the native Americans and the Mayans?
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #103
[Replying to post 101 by Wolfbitn]
People who live near rivers witness floods. Then they tell stories of floods. These stories get exaggerated soon they become great floods. Then they become mythological floods.
You are aware of how legends and myths form right? A simplistic analogy is a fish story. So a fisherman catches a big fish he comes home and exaggerates a little on how big the fish was they tell their friends an exaggeration of the exaggeration then you repeat this process over a thousand years and suddenly its not a fish caught in a river its a leviathan caught in the ocean.
I will reiterate there is not enough water on this earth to possibly cover all the land mass with water in a global flood scenario. It remains a myth.
People who live near rivers witness floods. Then they tell stories of floods. These stories get exaggerated soon they become great floods. Then they become mythological floods.
You are aware of how legends and myths form right? A simplistic analogy is a fish story. So a fisherman catches a big fish he comes home and exaggerates a little on how big the fish was they tell their friends an exaggeration of the exaggeration then you repeat this process over a thousand years and suddenly its not a fish caught in a river its a leviathan caught in the ocean.
I will reiterate there is not enough water on this earth to possibly cover all the land mass with water in a global flood scenario. It remains a myth.
Post #104
[Replying to post 102 by DanieltheDragon]
So Mesopotamian fishermen went to north America and Central America to give their legend to the Native American? What evidence do you have for this?
So Mesopotamian fishermen went to north America and Central America to give their legend to the Native American? What evidence do you have for this?
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Goat
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Post #105
Wolfbitn wrote: [Replying to post 102 by DanieltheDragon]
So Mesopotamian fishermen went to north America and Central America to give their legend to the Native American? What evidence do you have for this?
Are you purposely misunderstanding what was written?
That was not what was said. what was said was 'Rivers are everyplace, rivers flood and people make stories up about them'.
Unless you htink the this photo below was ancient Mesopotamian.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #106
No they did not. What suggests this occured?Wolfbitn wrote: [Replying to post 102 by DanieltheDragon]
So Mesopotamian fishermen went to north America and Central America to give their legend to the Native American? What evidence do you have for this?
here is a list of thunder gods
Ancient Near East[edit]
Teshub (Hurrian mythology)
Adad, Ishkur, Marduk (Babylonian-Assyrian mythology)
Hadad (Levantine mythology)
Eurasia[edit]
Tarhunt (Hittite/Luwian mythology)
Zeus (Greek Mythology)
Brontes (Greek mythology)
Jupiter, Summanus (Roman mythology)
Taranis (Pan-Celtic); Ambisagrus, Loucetios (Gaulish mythology)
Þunraz (Germanic mythology; Anglo-Saxon Þunor, German Donar, Norse Þórr)
Thor (Norse mythology)
Perun (Slavic mythology)
Perkūnas (Baltic mythology)
Perëndi (Albanian mythology)
Gebeleizis (Dacian mythology)
Zibelthiurdos (Thracian mythology)
Ukko or Perkele (Finnish mythology)
Horagalles (Sami mythology)
Indra, Parjanya (Hindu mythology)
Aplu (Etruscan mythology)
Atämshkai (Moksha mythology)
East Asia[edit]
Lei Gong (Chinese mythology)
Ajisukitakahikone, Raijin (Raiden-sama, Kaminari-sama), Tenjin (kami) (Japanese mythology)
Susanoo (Japanese mythology)
Americas[edit]
Thunderbird (Native American mythology)
Xolotl (Aztec mythology)
Chaac (Maya mythology)
Apocatequil (Incan mythology)
Cocijo (Zapotec mythology)
Aktzin (Totonac mythology)
Haokah (Lakota mythology)
Tupã (Guaranà mythology)
Africa[edit]
Set (Egyptian mythology)
Shango (Yorùbá religion)
Oya (goddess of hurricanes, consort of Shango in Yorùbá religion)
Azaka-Tonnerre (West African Vodun/Haitian Vodou)
Mulungu
Xevioso (alternately: Xewioso, Heviosso. Thunder god of the So region)
Sango (Nigerian mythology)
Amadioha (Igbo, Nigeria)
Oceania[edit]
Polynesian mythology
Haikili (Polynesian mythology)
T�whaki (Polynesian mythology)
Kaha'i (Polynesian mythology)
Te Uira (Polynesian mythology)
Micronesian mythology
Nan Sapwe (Pohnpeian mythology)
Australia[edit]
Mamaragan (Aboriginal mythology)
New Zealand[edit]
Whaitiri (M�ori mythology)
notice the geographic dispersion
now since all these global peoples have a thunder god does this mean that thunder gods are real?
I guess by that standard there are more thunder gods than flood myths so thunder gods are more real than flood myths.
or
people made myths about thunder gods because they couldn't explain what thunder was.
Post #107
[Replying to post 104 by Goat]
So youre saying then that ALL the ancestors of these ancient civilizations worldwide actually OBSERVED a flood
So youre saying then that ALL the ancestors of these ancient civilizations worldwide actually OBSERVED a flood
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Goat
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Post #108
Wolfbitn wrote: [Replying to post 104 by Goat]
So youre saying then that ALL the ancestors of these ancient civilizations worldwide actually OBSERVED a flood
Floods tend to happen very couple of dozen years.. but the REALLY big ones happen often enough.. yes.
The thing is... there is no evidence the the flood that triggered of the various stories was the SAME flood. Flood happen all the time. Can you demonstrate that there was a single flood that triggered off all these stories??
ANd, while we are at it, you can give a coherent definition of KIND too. Can you describe what a KIND is so that is has some kind of valid meaning. Show your work.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #109
[Replying to post 106 by Wolfbitn]
Some cultures near rivers observed different floods at some point not 1 flood why is this such a hard concept to understand. These myths are separated by hundreds of years and in some cases over thousands of years. Also the survivors of these floods are not the same and the accounts differ both in the number of survivors and their origins.
Your logic is like saying because there was a flood in Arkansas and Georgia on the same day the entire southeast was under a giant regional flood.
I don't trust your ability to use logic under these circumstances.
Some cultures near rivers observed different floods at some point not 1 flood why is this such a hard concept to understand. These myths are separated by hundreds of years and in some cases over thousands of years. Also the survivors of these floods are not the same and the accounts differ both in the number of survivors and their origins.
Your logic is like saying because there was a flood in Arkansas and Georgia on the same day the entire southeast was under a giant regional flood.
I don't trust your ability to use logic under these circumstances.
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Volbrigade
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Post #110
[Replying to post 108 by DanieltheDragon]
How many floods from ancient times have involved the release of the "fountains of the deep"?
How many have been associated with 40 days and nights of rain, which were a product of that event -- not the source of the flood, as is commonly mistaken?
How many local floods from ancient times can trace a detailed genealogy from the time of the their occurrence?
How many produced a global fossil record of their impact, formed by the massive movements of soils and plasticized rock, which rapidly encased countless specimens on a global scale? How many involved rapid continental plate subduction, as entire tectonic plates sank at the point of collision with others, creating rifting and fissuring and vulcanism on a global scale, exposing magma to sea water in massive amounts, creating superheated steam jets rocketing into the stratosphere at supersonic speed, where they cooled to produced the rain?
If you said "only one. The Biblical Flood of Noah..."
Go to the head of the class.
How many floods from ancient times have involved the release of the "fountains of the deep"?
How many have been associated with 40 days and nights of rain, which were a product of that event -- not the source of the flood, as is commonly mistaken?
How many local floods from ancient times can trace a detailed genealogy from the time of the their occurrence?
How many produced a global fossil record of their impact, formed by the massive movements of soils and plasticized rock, which rapidly encased countless specimens on a global scale? How many involved rapid continental plate subduction, as entire tectonic plates sank at the point of collision with others, creating rifting and fissuring and vulcanism on a global scale, exposing magma to sea water in massive amounts, creating superheated steam jets rocketing into the stratosphere at supersonic speed, where they cooled to produced the rain?
If you said "only one. The Biblical Flood of Noah..."
Go to the head of the class.
