Jews are deluded?

[postroad]

I was trying to be nicer about it in the Judaism forum but that does not work.

Apparently Judaism is so precious that it is beyond discussion from a Gentile.

So I am going to put it here and be brutally honest about it. Any person Christian or Jew who literally believes that God himself gave the Law through Moses to a specially chosen people descended from an actual Abram/Abraham is deluded.

And the absolute absurdness of the liberal position that you can believe in a literal God as portrayed in the text and at the same time deny that this text is a direct revelation of that God is doubly absurd.

What you have is a tradition of men, period.

There was never a promise to Abraham that will be fulfilled to anyone at anytime.

The OT is the apologetic for why God did not keep his promise.

The Jews would rather blame themselves and their ancestors than admit that the whole thing is a scam concocted to extract resources from the unwashed masses.

Which unremarkably Christianity is also based on.

[cnorman18]

Alright, can we agree that Christianity is not the "new covenant"?

I appreciate the change in tone. Thanks.

To answer your question: As far as Jews are concerned -- of course Christianity is not the "new covenant," not for US, anyway. There was nothing wrong with the old one.

That said, Christians may believe what they like. I, for one, don't consider Christianity a "false religion," for the reasons I mentioned earlier. That's between them and God. If Christians want to believe in a New Covenant with God, well, may He honor that belief. I've got no problem with it. (I've never said that Jesus wasn't the Christ: that's above my pay grade, as they say in the Army. I've said only that he was not the Jewish Messiah, because he wasn't.)

If they are not the new covenant, do any Jews believe that God will institute a "new covenant" through the Spirit?

In a word, no. There are some who believe in a Messianic Age, and some a personal Messiah; and there are even traditions about when that will happen, though none are authoritative or even well-known. But that is not a "New Covenant." The old one, in the words of the Bible, is "everlasting" and "eternal." Not much space for a replacement there.

How is the concept viewed.

Of a New Covenant? As unnecessary.

Also to whom exactly is the offence against, of say, Sabbath breaking, if indeed God did not translate the Law through Moses.

Why does that matter? The "offense" is against the Law and the Tradition, whether one believes in the Torah as the Word of God given through Moses or not -- or even if one does not believe in God in any conventional sense. You DID know that there are practicing Jews who are atheists, did you not?

Who decides what and whom a Jew is in Judaism.

There are two, and only two, ways to be or become a Jew. One born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, and the other is to undergo a formal rite of conversion (see below). That is a matter of long-established tradition; no one person decided that, and no one today has the right to change it (but see below).

It is a current issue that some Reform congregations are beginning to recognize "patrilineal descent," that is, to recognize one born of a Jewish father as Jewish. The issue is quite controversial within the community at present, since neither the Conservative nor the Orthodox agree. Talks are ongoing... As I said, Judaism is allowed, and even expected, to change; but it does so at a glacial pace and only after much consultation and consideration from the whole community. I doubt that the other branches will accept this, and the fear is that it will cause the first real schism among the branches in all of our long history. Remains to be seen.

I imagine that unlike Christianity one can not repeat the "sinners prayer" and immediately declare themselves a member.

And you would be correct. I am a convert myself (40 years ago I was a Methodist minister), and I am very familiar with the process.

When one first inquires about conversion, the rabbi will turn you away; traditionally, three times. In the old days the rabbi would chase you out of his office waving a cane if he had one; today they just don't return your calls. If you persist, he will finally agree to talk -- and then set about trying to talk you out of it. The talk, in general form and intent, is also prescribed by tradition (and remember that "tradition" and "law" are pretty closely related in Judaism). "Why do you want to do this? You don't have to be Jewish to go to Heaven -- and if you become a Jew, there are many people who will hate and despise you and may even want to kill you. The life is not an easy one, and the transition is not easy to make." And so on. The intent is to make SURE that the potential convert knows what he's getting into. If the rabbi is convinced of your sincerity -- that you are more than just idly curious -- the process begins.

Normally this involves a formal conversion class; ours met once a week for three hours for a little over a year. You take tests and write formal papers on various subjects. You will have a rather long reading list, mostly about Jewish history and culture; very little "theology" is involved, since that is of marginal importance in Judaism.

At no point will you be told what to believe. In the Jewish religion, your theological beliefs are up to you. You will be shown a very wide spectrum of belief, from far "right" (Biblical literalism and strict observance) to far left (agnosticism about a personal God and recognition of Jewish law as tradition that is no longer totally observed or required), and everything in between. If one were far right to begin with, one would probably choose Orthodox -- and their process takes much longer. I know one man who was still working toward full conversion after eight years. If one were far to the "left," one would probably have gone Reform; their process is shorter, but still a year or two, minimum. There is a lot to learn.

The purpose of the class is, again, to make sure you know what you're getting into. It's more about the Jewish people, the community, than it is about beliefs. The commitment to the people is uppermost. We are a small people, and that understanding is vital. One learns a great deal about Jewish history and Jewish culture and even Jewish food; about the prayers (not quite the same concept in Judaism as in Christianity) and the Jewish calendar and holidays. Our class started the year with 75 members, and by the end it contained about 15. And that's fine; if people learn that they don't want to do this, there's no shame to it. (You can't "flunk out," by the way; if you bomb a test, you study with the rabbi till you get it.)

At some point, if you are male, you will have to be circumcised. I was circumcised at birth, but a tiny drop of blood was still drawn for ritual purposes. If you're not circumcised, that's required, and it's no fun even when you get it done at a hospital with the anesthetic and all that. Takes a few days to heal. Some Reform congregations don't require it now, but that's still pretty unusual.

After the class is finished, you study individually with the rabbi till he feels you are ready. Then you appear before a Bet Din, a rabbinical court (not as big a deal as it sounds; the rabbi you studied under is usually the "chairman," and another rabbi or the cantor, and sometimes a learned layman, will be the other two members. Again, in the Orthodox community, it's a much bigger deal.) You will be quizzed -- about your commitment, your dedication to the Jewish community and people, and your intent as far as observance is concerned; but not about your beliefs. As I said, those are up to you. After the Bet Din is finished, you sign a paper in English and Hebrew, so do they, and that will be your conversion certificate that proves you're Jewish. Mine is framed on the wall of my study. Then you go into the ritual bath, the Mikvah, and when you come up, you're a Jew. You will usually lead a small prayer service attended by friends and family, and then it's common to have a celebration dinner.

My own process was kind of the reverse of the above; since I had been a minister, I STARTED with individual study with the rabbi, and my reading list was longer, harder, and contained more "theological" type material. That went on for three years. At the end of that period, I took the class -- the rabbi had me teach some of the sessions, like on the Holocaust (about which I knew rather a lot) and on the relationship between Judaism and Christianity -- and then, finally, the drop-of-blood thing, the Bet Din,, the mikvah, and I was a Jew. I've never looked back; I'm home now.

It's rather common, and well known, that converts like me are often more knowledgable about Judaism than born Jews; they don't have to take the class, yeu see, and many Jews are entirely secular and don't go to services or observe the traditions with particular interest. Most still have a Passover seder, though, and virtually all still circumcise their sons.

That's the process. It's been the same for at least a thousand years, and probably longer. It's not just declaring your beliefs -- those are, as I've tried to indicate, irrelevant -- and saying "I'm a Jew." You have to formally join the community. It's more like being adopted into a family than joining a church or club. It's been compared to citizenship, which makes sense; you can be born an American citizen, or you can become one by action of an American court. There are no other ways.

I hope that answers your question. I'm taking it on faith, you'll pardon the reference, that you aren't just looking for something to take exception to or argue against. I'm just telling you the process.

Also could your same argument about the members making the rules for Judaism not translate in part to the Catholic Church for Christianity?

First, that's not for me to say: I'm not a Christian. They get to make the rules for their religious community, just like we Jews get to make the rules for ours.

Second; those religions and mine are qualitatively different, even in what makes a person a Christian or a Jew. A Christian is identified by belief; you believe in Jesus, you're a Christian. You become a Christian by confession (that is, by agreeing to a formal statement of belief, like a Creed) and baptism, and not by birth. Also, those are hierarchical communities, for the most part, though some Protestant denominations are made up of fully independent congregations, just as synagogues are independent. In those, the rules are determined by the hierarchy and they roll downhill -- e.g., first the Pope, the College of Cardinals, the archbishops and monsignors and bishops and finally down to the local priests and deacons. Protestants usually have a Board or Council or something instead of a Pope, but the principle is pretty much the same. That's a huge load of generalizations, and there are exceptions all over the place, but in general those are the differences.

[postroad]

Thank you for your thoughtfully response. I was wondering if only Gentile males could become coverts? Also if the descendants of converts automatically became hereditary Jews?

Is it impossible to be a Jew and then be for a better word "excommunicated"?

Is there any condemnation from conservative Judaism towards liberal or non practicing Jews?

Also from the perspective of "Messianic Judaism"( I know they are not really Jews but the words describe who we are talking about) will they ever be accepted into Judaism?

Or would they have to renounce Jesus and follow the same path to conversion as any gentile?

[cnorman18]

Thank you for your thoughtfully response. I was wondering if only Gentile males could become coverts?

No. Women may convert as well -- no circumcision required, of course.

Also if the descendants of converts automatically became hereditary Jews?

Yes. One of King David's ancestors, Ruth, was a convert; she was originally a Moabite, one of the Hebrews' traditional enemies. Jews have accepted converts since Abraham's day, which is why it's silly to talk about a Jewish "race." There are Jews of every ethnicity on Earth; Chinese Jews, Black Jews, Latino Jews, et cetera.

It is also forbidden for any Jew to even allude to the fact that one is a convert unless the convert brings it up. I have been active in four congregations, and have been wholeheartedly embraced as a fellow Jew in all of them. Converts are much more common in Judaism than one might think; there are many in my small shul, and an entire family -- husband, wife and two adult children -- converted a few months ago and are among our most active members.

Is it impossible to be a Jew and then be for a better word "excommunicated"?

Yes, that is impossible. If you're a Jew, you're a Jew for life, even if you're a convert. You can stop practicing and even convert to another religion, but as far as Jews and Jewish law are concerned, you are still Jewish; and no one has the power to "kick you out." Can't be done.

Is there any condemnation from conservative Judaism towards liberal or non practicing Jews?

I presume you mean from the Orthodox (once again, "Conservative" is one of the liberal movements). Among the ultra-Orthodox, which are called Haredim in Israel, yes, there is some friction and condemnation; but they are pretty insular and don't associate much with anyone outside their community.

Modern Orthodox (think Joe Lieberman), not so much. One of the largest Chasidic (very Orthodox) sects, though, the Lubavitchers, do a lot of outreach to more liberal Jews, trying to convince them to be more observant; they are very friendly and outgoing and don't condemn anybody.

Many very Orthodox Jews would not consider me Jewish at all, since I was not converted under the authority of an Orthodox rabbi. Most would, though, since I was circumcised and went through the Mikvah. I don't really care; I don't hang out with them.

Also from the perspective of "Messianic Judaism"( I know they are not really Jews but the words describe who we are talking about) will they ever be accepted into Judaism?

Here all Jews speak with one voice: No, never. "Messianic Jews" are Christians, plain and simple; if one worships Jesus as God and/or Savior, one has abandoned the Jewish religion. The two religions have an historical link, a common ethic, and share some documents (though we read them in very different ways), but after two thousand years, we have diverged too widely to merge again, even in part. We have different priorities and different views of the nature of God, Man's place in the Universe, and much more.

Or would they have to renounce Jesus and follow the same path to conversion as any gentile?

That is correct -- except that no one asks anyone (not even me, a former Christian minister) to formally "renounce Jesus." At some point in one's study sessions with the rabbi, he might ask what you think of Jesus now; but in point of fact, Jesus is of no greater importance to Jews than Mohammed, and his name comes up about as often. It's a shock to many Christians, but we just don't care about Jesus and we don't think about him. The focus in the conversion process is on one's dedication to Judaism, not on one's turning away from Jesus or Christianity. That's just a nonissue.

In fact, many "Messianic Jews" convert to actual Judaism. In my own experience, the overwhelming majority of "Messianic Jews" were never Jewish at all (though that's the image they try to present), but Christians who have grown interested in Judaism and wish to add some Jewish flavor, so to speak, to their religion. Many go on to full conversion. I didn't take that route myself, but very many do.

It's very probable that more Christians convert to Judaism than Jews convert to Christianity (whatever it's called). We don't keep records on converts, and you'll never get numbers from "Messianic" congregations on how many of their members were ever actual Jews; but that's my guess.

Thanks again for the change in attitude. I DO appreciate it.

[bornofgod]

I was trying to be nicer about it in the Judaism forum but that does not work.

Apparently Judaism is so precious that it is beyond discussion from a Gentile.

So I am going to put it here and be brutally honest about it. Any person Christian or Jew who literally believes that God himself gave the Law through Moses to a specially chosen people descended from an actual Abram/Abraham is deluded.

And the absolute absurdness of the liberal position that you can believe in a literal God as portrayed in the text and at the same time deny that this text is a direct revelation of that God is doubly absurd.

What you have is a tradition of men, period.

There was never a promise to Abraham that will be fulfilled to anyone at anytime.

The OT is the apologetic for why God did not keep his promise.

The Jews would rather blame themselves and their ancestors than admit that the whole thing is a scam concocted to extract resources from the unwashed masses.

Which unremarkably Christianity is also based on.

I'm neither a Jew or a Christian. You will have a much harder time to convince me that our Creator doesn't exist and to prove otherwise. Some of the prophecies that were spoken and written thousands of years ago are happening right now and most of them will happen in the near future.

It's obvious you are an unbeliever who is trying hard to convince yourself and anyone who listens to you that God didn't have His prophets and saints write down words He put in their minds. I know differently because I'm His last saint on this earth.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 14 by bornofgod]

One more time, "Saint Brad"; Do you have any PROOF for your wildly outrageous claims? Anything at all, other than your own bizarre and literally incredible, as in "not credible," words?

[postroad]

I have some questions about patrilineal descent. Is the fact that one is a hereditary Jew only through their mother a nod to a conservative way of thinking of women as subordinate to men?

It sounds counterintuitive, but it does punish the men who marry outside the faith as their line ends with them if they can not get their wife to convert.

Therefore more responsibility and more consequences are placed on males.

Does that make any sense at all?

I can imagine that patrilineal descent would be a hot topic. The first sect to adopt it would have a huge untapped pool of potential members.

Which brings me to a very delicate subject which one must approach with all due reverence to the victims.

Did the Nazis only recognise Jews only through matrilineal descent? I suspect not.

Does this mean that many who were killed for having Jewish ancestors were not recognised as being Jews by Judaism?

Has Judaism recognised these victims as Jewish in the context of their deaths?

Thank you for your replies.

[cnorman18]

I have some questions about patrilineal descent. Is the fact that one is a hereditary Jew only through their mother a nod to a conservative way of thinking of women as subordinate to men?

It sounds counterintuitive, but it does punish the men who marry outside the faith as their line ends with them if they can not get their wife to convert.

Therefore more responsibility and more consequences are placed on males.

Does that make any sense at all?

Sure, if that law began in the 20th century. It began in the Bronze Age. The only guaranteed, for sure, no-doubt-about-it link between the generations at that time was from MOTHER to CHILD. There was no way to prove fatherhood back then. About the identity of the mother, there was never any doubt.

I can imagine that patrilineal descent would be a hot topic. The first sect to adopt it would have a huge untapped pool of potential members.

The problem is -- what about the next generation? We're going to have children who are recognized as Jews by one branch and not by the others. What happens when an Orthodox Jew wants to marry a person whom they thought was Jewish -- and then finds out they aren't by their standards? It's going to lead to huge problems -- and there is STILL the problem of knowing for sure that the father was Jewish, anyway. I think a good compromise might be to require DNA tests to confirm matrilineal descent -- but that kind of puts a burden on poor Jews (there are many).

I dunno. I say just convert and then there's no problem. That's the big question for the rest of us: "Why not just convert?" It's free, and it's not a big deal if you were raised Jewish anyway.

Which brings me to a very delicate subject which one must approach with all due reverence to the victims.

Did the Nazis only recognise Jews only through matrilineal descent? I suspect not.

To the Nazis, if you had one Jewish great-grandparent, you were Jewish. People who had been Christian for generations died in the camps. (Incidentally, when the churches were asked to identify such people, some of them did.)

Does this mean that many who were killed for having Jewish ancestors were not recognised as being Jews by Judaism?

No doubt there were, but it'd be hard to know who. The Nazis left numbers, but not names.

Has Judaism recognised these victims as Jewish in the context of their deaths?

No, there would be no way to do that; nor would most of them (or their families) want it, being Catholic or Lutheran or whatever. They are reverently honored as fellow victims of the Shoah, as are all the Gentiles who were killed alongside our people. Not all were Jewish: the Nazis rounded up Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, gays, dissident priests, Communists, Russians, and even mentally challenged people and others born with deformities -- even old people with dementia and of course political enemies of the Reich. There were many, at least 4 million besides the 6 million Jews who were murdered. We remember and honor them all.

Every year there is a special memorial day, called Yom HaShoah (the day of the whirlwind). We light yellow candles and say Kaddish, the prayer for the dead (which does not mention death) for ALL the victims, not only for our own people. When I was a minister, on the Sunday closest to Yom HaShoah, I would remove the cross from the altar in my church and replace it with a Star of David made of barbed wire that I made myself, and I would preach on the Holocaust. I also fasted on that day, and only stopped when I converted.

Thank you for your replies.

Thank you for your questions.

Edited to add: I forgot to mention this. The Nazis were unique in all our history in the approach they took to identifying Jews. We've been persecuted off and on for centuries, but in every other pogrom or campaign, if you or your parents or grandparents had converted to Christianity (or Islam), they left you alone. If you were a nonreligious Jew, they pretty much left you alone then too. No one but the Nazis ever identified Jews as a "race," and it's odd that some people still think that's a thing.

[bornofgod]

[Replying to post 14 by bornofgod]

One more time, "Saint Brad"; Do you have any PROOF for your wildly outrageous claims? Anything at all, other than your own bizarre and literally incredible, as in "not credible," words?

I have as much proof as you have and that's absolutely nothing. That's because our Creator and His creation are invisible. How do you prove that we're invisible without God using saints to teach His people with analogies of earthly things about the invisible us.

The religious Jews, including the Jewish prophets, believed that what they saw was real. The Jewish saints and I know that what we see isn't real and that everything came from the invisible creation in the mind of our Creator.

[McCulloch]

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[Replying to post 14 by bornofgod]

One more time, "Saint Brad"; Do you have any PROOF for your wildly outrageous claims? Anything at all, other than your own bizarre and literally incredible, as in "not credible," words?

I have as much proof as you have and that's absolutely nothing.

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[Eliyahu]

I was trying to be nicer about it in the Judaism forum but that does not work.

Apparently Judaism is so precious that it is beyond discussion from a Gentile.

So I am going to put it here and be brutally honest about it. Any person Christian or Jew who literally believes that God himself gave the Law through Moses to a specially chosen people descended from an actual Abram/Abraham is deluded.

And the absolute absurdness of the liberal position that you can believe in a literal God as portrayed in the text and at the same time deny that this text is a direct revelation of that God is doubly absurd.

What you have is a tradition of men, period.

There was never a promise to Abraham that will be fulfilled to anyone at anytime.

The OT is the apologetic for why God did not keep his promise.

The Jews would rather blame themselves and their ancestors than admit that the whole thing is a scam concocted to extract resources from the unwashed masses.

Which unremarkably Christianity is also based on.

Bs'd

Well, at least you admit you have no proof whatsover for your rant.

And God did not give the law only through Moses, the ten commandments were given directly by God to a nation of millions of people.

Except for Judaism, ALL religions begin with the claim of one, maximum two people who claim to be God (David Koresh, JC ) or they claim to be a prophet of God. (Mohammed, Joseph Smit).

The believability of those claims hovers around zero. Everybody can make stories that God spoke to him, that he or she is God himself, (the mental asylums are packed with people like that)

However, Judaism is unique amongst all the religions, in that it did not start with a claim to fame of one person, Judaism started with God giving the law, not just to one man, but to a nation of about 3 million people.

One man can easily make a claim that he is God or a prophet.

However, the claim that God spoke to a whole nation, cannot be falsified, and therefore you won't find such a claim anywhere, except amongst the Jews.

For more about this interesting subject look here: