Magic and god

[connermt]

Blaine.
Angel.
Cooperfield.
Magicians. They do 'tricks' that stun and amaze many people.
God/jesus did the same type of things.
So are they nothing more than magicians?
Let's compare:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = human
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = doing actions that surprise and impress certain (though not all) viewers
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = men
Let's contrast:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = alive jesus = dead
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = verifiable in the real world jesus = unverifiable

It sure seems god can be called nothing more than a magician. Is that true, or is it something else?
How do we know this?
-

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 7 by connermt]

Not according to what Danmark said. T.B. Joshua does the healing in a church surrounded by multitudes of people so there's no audience turning, nobody even thinks of turning. They come with their before and after medical records and last time i checked, you can't magic cure HIV, fool doctors and their equipment and still be alive.
I really wish you'ld go, the shock on your face would be the "magic".

sizzle this stuff has been exposed over and over. I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, except don't give them your money.

The most common scenario when you go to one of these faith healing presentations is that they have you fill out a card ahead of time. Then the 'healer's assistant gives the 'healer' information about you via radio to a small speaker in his ear, then he miraculously calls out your personal details and you are 'amazed.' There are certainly sincere Christians, but these faith healers are frauds.. T.B. Joshua is already mired in controversy. Do a google search. Believe what you want, but hold on to your wallet. It's all an old carny scam. Using religion just guarantees a more gullible group of suckers.

[dianaiad]

Blaine.
Angel.
Cooperfield.
Magicians. They do 'tricks' that stun and amaze many people.
God/jesus did the same type of things.
So are they nothing more than magicians?
Let's compare:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = human
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = doing actions that surprise and impress certain (though not all) viewers
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = men
Let's contrast:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = alive jesus = dead
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = verifiable in the real world jesus = unverifiable

It sure seems god can be called nothing more than a magician. Is that true, or is it something else?
How do we know this?
-

Two thoughts struck me when I read the above post.
The first one was Arthur C Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

The second was that the folks you reference, Blaine/Angel/Copperfield, call themselves illusionists, not magicians; they are very clear that what they do is 'fake,' and for entertainment, while the events attributed to Jesus were done, not to entertain or to 'fool' people or to get money from them. They were all done to teach a lesson, or simply because the miracle needed doing and He was there and able to do it; rather like a doctor saving the life of a traffic accident victim who would have died had the doctor not been there and known what to do.

Now me, I rather concur with Clarke: a miracle is an event that couldn't be accomplished by the folks present at the time it happens. The question, as far as I can tell, is this: when we can figure out how to do it, is the original event still a miracle?

Another question: if God does something and we can't duplicate it, does that mean we never will be able to duplicate it? Or...if God does something that we can't immediately duplicate, does that mean He couldn't have done it in the first place?

[Haven]

Link: T.B. Joshua heals HIV (there are youtube videos).
Showing you face-to-face is great and i'll really love to do that (really) but we would need to meet up and go to T.B. Joshua's church, i.e. SCOAN.

If he can repeat this under controlled conditions, then he can win $1,000,000 from James Randi.

Of course, he can't. Magic faith healing is nonsense, and it is used to prey on the weak, naive, and desperate. Any real effect that comes from faith healing is simply a placebo.

It's sad that, in 2014, people are still so superstitious.

[Haven]

[Replying to post 8 by sizzle-d]

Oh Boy, Nigeria is the land of scams & scammers. And believing something is true because there is a you-tube video? Really? This guy would never put himself under real scientific scrutiny, cause he knows he's a scam.

Exactly. I mean, really? If this magic faith healing nonsense were real, then why have doctors and scientific medicine at all? Why not just take the sick to some faith healer or witch doctor to be miraculously healed?

[Haven]

[Replying to post 7 by connermt]

Not according to what Danmark said. T.B. Joshua does the healing in a church surrounded by multitudes of people so there's no audience turning, nobody even thinks of turning. They come with their before and after medical records and last time i checked, you can't magic cure HIV, fool doctors and their equipment and still be alive.
I really wish you'ld go, the shock on your face would be the "magic".

Multitudes of people watch psychics, mediums, stage hypnotists, and exorcists, but that doesn't mean the mumbo-jumbo happening on stage is anything but just that. The fact that many people are gullible enough to fall for something like this "faith healing" doesn't make it legitimate. If anyone was actually healed, it was likely due to the placebo effect.

Once again, if T.B. Joshua can replicate it under controlled conditions, there's a million bucks in it for him.

[Danmark]

The second was that the folks you reference, Blaine/Angel/Copperfield, call themselves illusionists, not magicians; they are very clear that what they do is 'fake,' and for entertainment, while the events attributed to Jesus were done, not to entertain or to 'fool' people or to get money from them. They were all done to teach a lesson, or simply because the miracle needed doing and He was there and able to do it; rather like a doctor saving the life of a traffic accident victim who would have died had the doctor not been there and known what to do.

But that's the very point. There is no such thing as magic. It's all illusion. That's what the 'faith healers do.' They set up an illusion. It's all old carny gags. From removing tumors that turn out to be chicken guts, and [big surprise] leaving no scar, to the leg lengthening trick, to the confederate in the crowd. This stuff is not new. Houdini used to expose seance's. The Great Randi exposes psychics. We have a thread on it here: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44&start=0.
Now I confess I have a certain reverence for Jesus, or the symbol of Jesus, or the image of the man he was if only in my imagination or memory, so I don't like the idea of saying bad things about him, but the argument is that he too was a brilliant illusionist, not divine. The point is that even professional illusionists [aka 'magicians'] walk out of some performances unable to figure out the trick.

There's always a trick. Back in college I used to be able to rip a Seattle telephone book in half in seconds. I only weighed 150 pounds and was not abnormally strong.
At age 65 I joke that I had to move to a smaller town to still be able to do the trick. But it IS a trick. No matter how strong one is, no one can rip a 2 inch thick phone book in half, without the the proper technique.

Magicians have one thing above all else that they rely on; their knowledge that the public WANTS to be amazed. They want to believe.

[sizzle-d]

[Replying to Danmark]

You must be confusing him with someone else. Who exactly collects money? When did he ever collect money? When did he say he was a faith healer?
You can say what you want but you've never gone to SCOAN so you don't know.

[sizzle-d]

[Replying to post 15 by Haven]

The things you people bring up just to satisfy the fact that you are wrong is terrifying. You are half way around the world telling false stories about a person that clearly proves you wrong. Will you ever go? No. Why? So that you know only your truth.
Even if there was evidence dangling in your face, you will always find something to say so that you can never realise you are wrong. Synagogue Church Of All Nations is a church where people go to from every where but you are not even willing to move, to even try. Infact, once you cook up the story and feed it and one person believes it, you're satisfied.
What a terrifying life.

[sizzle-d]

[Replying to post 16 by Danmark]

[Danmark]

[Replying to Danmark]

You must be confusing him with someone else. Who exactly collects money? When did he ever collect money? When did he say he was a faith healer?

YOU said he was a faith healer in post #6:

Link: T.B. Joshua heals HIV (there are youtube videos).

And he claims it:

The Synagogue, Church of All Nations (SCOAN)
In 1989, T. B. Joshua fasted and prayed for 40 days and 40 nights.[9] He wrote that in a heavenly vision, he had received divine anointing and a covenant from God to start his ministry.[10] Following this, Joshua founded the ministry organisation The Synagogue, Church of All Nations (SCOAN) with only a handful of members.[11][self-published source] According to the organisation, more than 15,000 members [12] attend its weekly Sunday service; visitors from outside Nigeria are accommodated in the accommodation blocks constructed at the church.[13][14][15]

The SCOAN has been hailed for its impact on Nigerian tourism,[16] recent statistics from the Nigerian Immigration Service revealing that out of every ten foreign travellers coming into Nigeria, six of them are bound for The SCOAN.[17] The Guardian Newspaper UK reported that The SCOAN attracts more weekly attendees than the combined number of visitors to Buckingham Palace and the Tower of London.[18]

The SCOAN's popular services have also resulted in an enormous boost for local businesses and hoteliers.[19]

Alleged Healing and other alleged miracles[edit]
SCOAN remains controversial both in Nigeria and abroad, claiming regular occurrences of divine miracles. Several hundred Nigerians and international visitors come to the SCOAN each week to register for the prayer lines where the visitors are prayed over by T. B. Joshua and the "Wise Men". SCOAN has published numerous videos claiming to document the healing of incurable disabilities and illnesses such as spinal cord injuries, HIV/AIDS[20][21][22] and cancer.[23] Medical reports are a prerequisite for prayer for any health-related ailment in an attempt to authenticate the miracles said to be occurring.
....
There exists at least one watchblog concerning the activities of T.B. Joshua.[90] Furthermore, T.B. Joshua is also accused of paying Nollywood actors to act as if they were possessed by evil spirits, scamming people and several sexual offenses.[91]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._B._Joshua

Oh! and BTW, he claims to heal and he tells you how he collects the money right here at his own website:http://www.scoan.org/give/

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http://www.scoan.org/give/