The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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williamryan
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The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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Post by williamryan »

I'm new to this site. I've surfed around a bit on this topic, and I've constantly run into incantations of the problem of evil. I've seen Juliod, among others, use it over and over. I hope this thread will isolate the real issues of contention and shed some light on this often misused and abused argument. I have learned much from William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga's writings on this matter, and much of what I say is from their writings.

There are two basic versions of the problem of evil: deductive and probalistic (aka inductive). The propontent of the deductive problem of evil attempts to show that the existence of Deductive looks like this:

1. If a God exists who is omnipotent (all powerful) and omnibenevolent (all loving),
2. and evil exists,
3. then God cannot be omnipotent or omnibenevolent.

This version of the argument has been almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today. It lives on in its popular level form and is made immortal by producing this corpse of an argument between non-philosopher friends. Alvin Plantinga (a preeminent Christian philosopher at Notre Dame and past president of the Amer. Philosophical Assoc., which is the main association of professional philosophers) showed that this version of the problem of evil is logically untenable.

Alvin Plantinga presented a "defense" as opposed to a theodicy. A theodicy is an effort to explain why God would allow evil to exist. A defense, however, merely seeks to show that the atheist has failed to carry their case that evil is incompatible with God's existence. In other words, a sucessful defense with show that the atheist has failed to show that evil is logically incompatible with God's existence, while leaving us in the dark as to why God allows evil.

The deductive argument was destroyed because, in short, the atheist has assumed an overwhelming burden. Premises (1) and (2), above, are at not explicitly, logically inconsistent. An explicit, logically inconsistent statement would be that "God is blue, but God is not blue."

If the atheist thinks that premises (1) and (2) are implicitly inconsistent, then he or she must be assuming some hidden premise(s) that would make the inconsistency explicit. Those premises seem to be these:

(3) If God is omnipotent, then God can create any world that God desires.
(4) If God is omnibenevolent, then God prefers a world without evil over a world with evil.

Hidden premise (3) then is the view that if God is omnipotent, he could create a world that were all humans freely choose to do the right thing. This world would then be free of all moral evil: no lying, no cheating, no murder etc. So, because we can conceive of a world in which everyone freely chooses every time to do the right thing, and God is all-powerful, then God must be able to create it.

This links with hidden premise (4) because if God was powerful enough to create this type of world, then he certaintly would because he is all-loving. In other words, if God had the choice between creating a flawed, evil world like this one and creating one w/o any evil, then God would most certainly chose the latter. Otherwise, God would be evil to prefer that people experience pain and suffering when God could have given them happiness and prosperity.

In David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, he summarized this last point when he asked: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"

Plantinga and others object to hidden premise (3) with what he calls the free will defense. It goes like this: if it is possible that humans have complete freedom to make choices, then (3) and (4) are not necessarily true. If humans have freedom to make choices, then it is not necessarily true that God could have created another world in which no evil exists but people have complete freedom of choice. This is because God's omnipotence doesn't imply that God can do logical impossibilities like create a round triangle or make a married bachelor, or make someone freely chose to do something.

All God can really do is create a world in which a person may freely chose to act and then allow that person to make the free choice. This implies that there are possible worlds that are not feasible for God to create. Just like its not "feasible" for God to create a round triangle or a married bachelor. This does not impinge on God's omnipotence though, because God cannot be impinged for not being able to do a logical impossibility. Another example how how non-sensical this is, is for someone to say that God is not all-powerful because he cannot exist and non exist at the same time.

So, suppose that in every feasible world that God could create, free creatures sometimes choice evil. Here it is us, the creature, not God that is responsible for evil and God can do nothing to prevent their ability to choose the evil, apart from refusing to create such a world at all. Therefore it is at least possible that feasible world that God could create that contains free human beings is a world that has evil in it.

I'm about to say something that will seem crazy and you might be tempted to label be a total fundamentalist and crazy, but please keep reading past the next few sentences. As for natural evils (i.e. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.) it is possible that these evils could result from demonic activity. Demons could have freedom just like humans and it is possible that God could not preclude natural evil w/o removing demons' free will. You might be thinking, "That is ridiculous!" and you might even think that it is a spurious, frivolous argument. But only let this thought last a few moments lest you confuse the deductive argument with the probabilistic arguments. I admit, ascribing all evil to demonic beings is improbable, but that is completely irrevelant to the deductive version of this argument. Probability only enters the calculus in the probalistic argument. All I must do here is show that such an explanation (both for the moral evil and natural evil) is merely possible.

In summary, hidden premise (3), that an omnipotent God can create any world he desires, is plainly not necessarily true. Therefore, the atheist's argument on this ground alone fails, which causes the whole argument to fail. But we can go further, what about hidden premise (4).

What about (4), the hidden premise that if God is all-loving then he would prefer a world w/o evil over a world with evil. Again, this is not necessarily true. By analogy, we allow pain and suffering to exist in a person's life to bring about some greater good. Every parent knows this. There comes a time when parents cannot protect their child from every mishap, or when the parent must discipline the child so the child matures. Similarly, God could permit suffering in our lives to build us or test us or others and to achieve some greater good. Therefore, premise (4) is also not necessarily true. And again the argument fails, this time on totally separate grounds. Notice that the atheist must show that both (3) and (4) are true, while the theist merely need show one is false.

If I may be permitted to read some of your minds, at this point you might be thinking, "Even if there is no inconsistency between God and evil, surely the existence of God is incompatible with the amount and kinds of evils that actually exist." What good, you might ask, could possibly come from a pregnant mother in the wrong part of town that is struck down by a stray bullet fired from a gang member's 9mm?

This as its own hidden premise, that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow the amount and kinds of evil that exist. But again, this is not necessarily true, and all I must show is that it is possible that God has a morally sufficient reason. As terrible as some things about the world are, people generally agree that life is worth living, from which we could surmise that there is much more good that evil in the world, regardless of the amount and kind of evil actually present. As for the kinds of evil, it is possible that God has some overriding reasons to permit the kinds of evil that occur.

Again, you might think that that seems pretty unlikely. But this would confuse the deductive problem with the probabilistic problem again. To refute the deductive version, the theist doesn't have to suggest a likely solution--all he or she must do is suggest a possible solution.

In summary, the atheist assumes at least two hidden premises in the deductive version of this argument. He or she must prove both of those premises for this version to be true. I have shown that both of those hidden premises can be indenpendently refuted.

Further, because it is the atheist who claims to note a contradicition w/in the theist's truth claims, it is the atheist that bears the burden of proof to show that there is no possible world in which premises (1) and (2) are true. That is an incredibly heavy burden, which the atheist ultimately cannot shoulder. The deductive version of the problem of evil is impotent.


Probabilistic Version

After the deductive argument was destroyed, most who want to use the problem of evil (POE) to show that God cannot be all loving or all powerful moved to the probabilistic argument. The inductive version admits that it is possible for the traditional God of Christianity and evil to coexist, but it is highly improbable for them to coexist. The argument looks like this:

1. If a god exists who is all loving and all powerful,
2. yet evil exists,
3. then it is highly improbable or unlikely that a god exists who is all loving or all powerful.

Let me make a few observations. Notice that even if the Christian granted this argument, this argument does not show that God does not exist. It is, however, a step along that path. At most, this argument can claim that the type of God posited by traditional Christianity does not exist. Further, this argument cannot show that God is not all loving and not all powerful; it can only show that one of this is incorrect. But this is all only the case if we grant this argument, and there are powerful reasons not to grant it.[/u]

Given that this post is way too long already, I'll be brief here, and will flesh out my comments on this version as other posts come in (if anybody actually gets this far into the novel :)

(1) Given the full scope of the evidence for God's existence, it is far more likely than not that God exists.

(2) Because of our finite nature, we are not in a good position to asses with a sufficient confidence that God has no morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evils that occur.

(3) Christianity entails doctrines that increase the probability that God and evil coexist

I look forward to your comments.

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Post #41

Post by otseng »

juliod wrote: Why could not an infinitely powerful being stop evil and "allow the opportunity for people to choose to allow God to redeem it"?
There is nothing to redeem if there was no evil. So, it would not be possible.
wuntext wrote: You've lost me here, "redeem" what? The victims? Could you tell me what definition of the word 'redeem' you are using?
Compact OED
1 make up for the faults or bad aspects of. 2 (redeem oneself) make up for one’s poor past performance or behaviour. 3 save from sin, error, or evil. 4 fulfil (a pledge or promise). 5 gain or regain possession of in exchange for payment. 6 exchange (a coupon) for goods or money. 7 repay (a stock, bond, etc.) or clear (a debt). 8 archaic buy the freedom of.


I'm primarily referring to the first definition. In which God can take something bad and make up for the bad aspects of it and turn it into good.
But how is this comparable to the random evil and suffering we see around us?
This perhaps belongs to another thread. In this thread, the main issue is about the (possibility of) existence or non-existence of God based on the problem of evil.
Christians constantly tell us Jesus willingly sacrificed himself for us. He knew beforehand what was in store for him. He knew exactly what he was going to face, and the reason why this evil was going to happen.
True. And he knew the tremendous amount of suffering that he'd be going through. And though he was God, he was also a man. And he naturally would not desire to go through such pain. And asked if it was possible for there to be another way.
harvey1 wrote:the question is whether God chooses to let evil exist when God could have chosen a different world where evil doesn't exist.
I'm ambivalent on this one harvey1. I believe God created the angels before any humans came along. And I think they were all "good" at that point. So, God did not create any angels that were "evil". So, God technically created a world where evil did not exist. On the other had, some angels became corrupt and became "evil". So, the question then becomes "Could God have created a world where evil could never exist?" I don't know. I'll have to let the professional philosophers answer that one. :-k
Well, even if God is under a number of necessary constraints, it doesn't mean that God has no choice as to how to allow evil to occur in the world. For example, I think it is the case that God could have stopped 9-11, but choose not to do so for a better reason.
But I guess that would require some sort of supernatural intervention. Perhaps lightening bolts to kill the hijackers, then a wind to safely land the planes then all the passengers can walk off unharmed. So, perhaps God chooses to not intervene in the natural world too often.
God can do whatever is logically possible. This is a very strong requirement, and one in which I don't think the Christian God must necessarily meet.
I have no problem with this.

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Post #42

Post by otseng »

I'd like to get back to the main point of this thread and go back to my argument.

Is it true that when atheists use the PoE to argue against the existence of God that he is implying that God must cause all evil to cease? Or perhaps as harvey1 mentions, God must create a world in which no evil could ever exist?

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Post #43

Post by Melis »

harvey1 wrote:I think we have good reason to believe that God is restricted by the laws of physics.
Then he couldn't have been the creator. The laws of physics doesn't allow to create something out of nothing, and many more things god supposedly has done according to the bible.

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Post #44

Post by harvey1 »

Melis wrote:Then he couldn't have been the creator. The laws of physics doesn't allow to create something out of nothing, and many more things god supposedly has done according to the bible.
Actually, the laws of physics do allow creation from nothing. In fact, quantum theory would not work without the creation and annihilation of particles all around us. Many quantum cosmologists (e.g., Vilenkin) are proposing that the universe came to exist out of nothing.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #45

Post by juliod »

Is it true that when atheists use the PoE to argue against the existence of God that he is implying that God must cause all evil to cease? Or perhaps as harvey1 mentions, God must create a world in which no evil could ever exist?
That's right. If god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then no evil could ever exist, anywhere.

If you explain away this problem, by saying that god can do anything except those things that are logically impossible, or that god allows evil so we have free will, then you are saying that there are things greater than god's goodness or power. In other words, that his goodness or power is not unlimited.

If god's desire that we have free will is greater than his desire to reduce evil, then he is not omnibenevolent.

If god is limited by our ordinary laws of logic and reality, then he is not omnipotent.

And then there is the problem that if god is subject to the laws of our universe, including logic, how can you claim that he is a god? Wouldn't that make him just another ordinary being among ordinary beings?

Yup, it's all over. There's no god. We can go home now...

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Post #46

Post by McCulloch »

juliod wrote:If god's desire that we have free will is greater than his desire to reduce evil, then he is not omnibenevolent.
Agreed.
juliod wrote:If god is limited by our ordinary laws of logic and reality, then he is not omnipotent.
Here many theists disagree. Omnipotence as you define it is a straw man argument. Your argument has not disproven the possibility of the existence of a supernatural being that can do all that is logically possible.
juliod wrote:And then there is the problem that if god is subject to the laws of our universe, including logic, how can you claim that he is a god? Wouldn't that make him just another ordinary being among ordinary beings?
I do not know about your definition of ordinary, but I would not consider a being capable of doing all that is logically possible ordinary.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Post #47

Post by scorpia »

That's right. If god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then no evil could ever exist, anywhere.

Odd. How can that be good? Good is not the absence of evil but the defeat of it.
'Belief is never giving up.'- Random footy adverisement.

Sometimes even a wise man is wrong. Sometimes even a fool is right.

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Post #48

Post by juliod »

Your argument has not disproven the possibility of the existence of a supernatural being that can do all that is logically possible.
I'm not sure why I would have to do this. The burden would be on the theist who believes in such a lesser-omnipotent being. If the being is not fully omnipotent, how can we know the being is god?

Let's say a christian says "YHWH can do anything not logically impossible." A follower of Baal may say "Baal can do anything including the logically impossible." Therefore Baal is more powerful than YHWH, and therefore YHWH could not be considered god.
I do not know about your definition of ordinary, but I would not consider a being capable of doing all that is logically possible ordinary.
But is it god? Once you remove your god from being infinitely powerful you must at the least prove there are no greater beings.

Secondly, where do we draw the line? One example above was pain-free dentistry. That does not appear to present any logical impossibilities.

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Post #49

Post by harvey1 »

juliod wrote:And then there is the problem that if God is subject to the laws of our universe, including logic, how can you claim that he is a god? Wouldn't that make him just another ordinary being among ordinary beings?
I don't think that's the case at all. If God were counterfactually omnipotent (i.e., God is all-powerful except that God restrains the use of that power in cases where God desires to establish a universe of law and order), then I see no reason why this would make God ordinary. In fact, I would much rather God establish a universe of law and order in which God is restricted (but brought about the kingdom of heaven), than a world where God abandons law and order.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #50

Post by otseng »

McCulloch wrote:
juliod wrote:If god is limited by our ordinary laws of logic and reality, then he is not omnipotent.
Here many theists disagree. Omnipotence as you define it is a straw man argument. Your argument has not disproven the possibility of the existence of a supernatural being that can do all that is logically possible.
Whew. I'm glad an atheist can agree here that this is a straw man argument. Again juliod, it seems like you're the only here that is defining omnipotent as being able to do what is illogical. And I think we can all agree that such a god does not exist.
juliod wrote:If god's desire that we have free will is greater than his desire to reduce evil, then he is not omnibenevolent.
How do you know that God does not have a great desire to reduce evil? Just because evil exists does not necessarily mean that his desire to reduce it is not there.

BTW, has anybody yet offered a working definition of "evil" for the purposes of this debate? I think we'll need to agree on some definitions here before we can further tackle the PoE.

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