I am thinking that most of the argument from evil can be pawned off on human responsibility and or a state of events that human technology will conquer in the future. (Or already has)
Does that effect the effectiveness of the argument?
Time and responsibility vs. the argument from evil...
Moderator: Moderators
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Post #11
Instantly was HIS first choice but now comes second to HIS salvation of HIS sinful elect.Jashwell wrote: The argument from evil highlights a contradiction in certain definitions of God.
Premise 1: An extant God would always seek to remove all evil
Premise 2: An extant God could always remove all evil
If you consider both premises - if they are both true:
-If God exists he would always try to remove all evil, and since he can always remove all evil:
Therefore - If God exists, evil does not exist. (Otherwise God would instantly remove it)
Premise 3: There is evil
Conclusion: God does not exist
Your conclusions fails because you do not take into consideration that some of this evil HE is in the process of removing is in HIS fallen family members and so HE goes only as fast as HE perfectly can without doing them any damage and within their need to be restored to their free will in the process...remember in Matt 13 in the parable of the good seed, when asked if they should pull up the tares, He replied, "No, lest the good seed be pulled up with them." This is the reason that the judgement was postponed, not a lack of ability, so the presence of evil in no way implies GOD does not exist except to those who don't understand Christian theology.
As soon as the last sinful elect repents fully and is holy in mind and spirit, you will see the instant judgement and removal of all those who cannot ever repent.
So the fact evil exists only proves GOD is loving to HIS sinful family members and uses evil to teach them and chastise them until they repent and choose holiness ever after.
To put it another way:
All evil is creature created and they can all be removed to hell.
Some of those evil creatures are under HIS promise of salvation from their evil, so those who are not under the promise have their removal postponed until HIS beloved but evil elect can be brought to full holiness, safe from the judgment upon all evil, as the parable says.
The false premise is in thinking He has a problem with the removal of evil: the problem is not in HIS ability to send then to hell but in HIS need to sanctify HIS evil family members before HE can call the judgment, to fulfill HIS promise of salvation to them as HE cannot break HIS word.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: hi
Post #12Logically it may seem but it is not within the Christian system.Mr. LongView wrote: On some level it seems like one could argue that is logically impossible to have good without evil.
...
GOD did not need evil to fulfill the purpose of HIS creating us...He needed free will. All evil is creature created by free will.
IF no one had chosen evil by their choices, heaven would be full of every created person and evil would never have been brought into existence.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Post #13
I assure you it is logically sound. I'm not saying it's valid - it's easy to dispute the premises. This is why I don't use the problem of evil at all in arguments. This thread specifically mentions it, hence I'm just explaining it.ttruscott wrote:Instantly was HIS first choice but now comes second to HIS salvation of HIS sinful elect.Jashwell wrote: The argument from evil highlights a contradiction in certain definitions of God.
Premise 1: An extant God would always seek to remove all evil
Premise 2: An extant God could always remove all evil
If you consider both premises - if they are both true:
-If God exists he would always try to remove all evil, and since he can always remove all evil:
Therefore - If God exists, evil does not exist. (Otherwise God would instantly remove it)
Premise 3: There is evil
Conclusion: God does not exist
Your conclusions fails because you do not take into consideration that some of this evil HE is in the process of removing is in HIS fallen family members and so HE goes only as fast as HE perfectly can without doing them any damage and within their need to be restored to their free will in the process...remember in Matt 13 in the parable of the good seed, when asked if they should pull up the tares, He replied, "No, lest the good seed be pulled up with them." This is the reason that the judgement was postponed, not a lack of ability, so the presence of evil in no way implies GOD does not exist except to those who don't understand Christian theology.
As soon as the last sinful elect repents fully and is holy in mind and spirit, you will see the instant judgement and removal of all those who cannot ever repent.
So the fact evil exists only proves GOD is loving to HIS sinful family members and uses evil to teach them and chastise them until they repent and choose holiness ever after.
To put it another way:
All evil is creature created and they can all be removed to hell.
Some of those evil creatures are under HIS promise of salvation from their evil, so those who are not under the promise have their removal postponed until HIS beloved but evil elect can be brought to full holiness, safe from the judgment upon all evil, as the parable says.
The false premise is in thinking He has a problem with the removal of evil: the problem is not in HIS ability to send then to hell but in HIS need to sanctify HIS evil family members before HE can call the judgment, to fulfill HIS promise of salvation to them as HE cannot break HIS word.
Peace, Ted
If God can remove evil instantaneously, then the problem is that he doesn't want to (To be more accurate - it is not his highest priority). You believe that if he did this, that it would do damage, and so he would rather avoid the damage. (This is what I think you're saying at least)
This is an objection to the premise that "an extant God would always seek to remove all evil" because you think that God has has a higher priority (namely the protection of those who can repent).
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: hi
Post #14No, no evil in heaven. No disasters, no illness, no hint or taint of sin at all.
Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it,[heaven] nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: hi
Post #15Mr. LongView wrote: On some level it seems like one could argue that is logically impossible to have good without evil. Which creates a new premise.
What is the significance of hot if there is no cold.
Its not noteworthy for god to be good if that's all that's possible to begin with?
Its like praising a gas engine for running on gas.
So...
There is evil, which means there is no god.
Or
It is logically impossible for god to create good without evil.
Which leads to a different conclusion.
It would be illogical to call a being "god" who cannot create good without creating evil or who cannot create cold without creating hot. Who, other than god, makes such rules? In other words, if god has to follow rules he didn't put in place, why call him "god?" To say that god has to follow rules of logic just because we can't understand another way is to limit god in a way god should not be limited. If god must follow the rules of logic, then we MUST ask who set the rules of logic in place that even god cannot break.
-
Mr. LongView
hi
Post #16Thanks again for the responses, and I apologize for the double post... (Doubled)
Probably user error!
I believe I have learned what I was trying to get a grasp on.
Thank you Jashwell, logically sound and possibly not valid was what I was struggling with.
As an agnostic I have all kinds of objections (well more like head scratchers) to god, but the argument from evil seems like one of the least swallowable reasons I run into.
I can run with it if I'm trying to make my point, but unfortunetly it fails miserably if I let go of an agnostic agenda.
Probably user error!
I believe I have learned what I was trying to get a grasp on.
Thank you Jashwell, logically sound and possibly not valid was what I was struggling with.
As an agnostic I have all kinds of objections (well more like head scratchers) to god, but the argument from evil seems like one of the least swallowable reasons I run into.
I can run with it if I'm trying to make my point, but unfortunetly it fails miserably if I let go of an agnostic agenda.
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: hi
Post #17GOD is good, HE does not create good because He did not create HIMself. GOD created us with a free will. By our choices to accept HIM we created ourselves as good, that is, in accord with HIM and HIS goodness. By their choices to reject HIM, other created themselves as evil, that is, antagonistic to HIM and HIS goodness.Mr. LongView wrote:
...
It is logically impossible for god to create good without evil.
Which leads to a different conclusion.
All evil is creature created.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
-
Mr. LongView
Re: hi
Post #18First, if it works for you, run with it.ttruscott wrote:GOD is good, HE does not create good because He did not create HIMself. GOD created us with a free will. By our choices to accept HIM we created ourselves as good, that is, in accord with HIM and HIS goodness. By their choices to reject HIM, other created themselves as evil, that is, antagonistic to HIM and HIS goodness.Mr. LongView wrote:
...
It is logically impossible for god to create good without evil.
Which leads to a different conclusion.
All evil is creature created.
Peace, Ted
If the tree bares good fruit don't trim it...
Biblicaly though it can be supported that god created evil..
Cause a coin has to sides.
Now I could provide nine hundred versions of the bible but I will give you one.
There is others...
Isaiah 45:7- check it out
Re: Time and responsibility vs. the argument from evil...
Post #19[Replying to post 1 by Mr. LongView]
An omnipotent god could prevent all evil.
An omniscient god would know how to prevent all evil.
Therefore, if a tri-omni god existed, there would be no evil.
But many people believe a tri-omni god coexists with evil. That's a logical contradiction, an impossibility.
The Problem of Evil (PoE) is just people noticing that you can't have a tri-omni god in the same universe with evil. People who believe in such a god---and who also believe in evil---are patently wrong.
So, no, blaming evil on people does not undermine the PoE. If you want to posit a god who only opposes evil that isn't man-made, then you can maybe have that god. But that god isn't omnibenevolent. He's only partly benevolent.
The fact that technology may reduce evil does not undermine the PoE. An omnibenevolent god would oppose all evil, not just evil after technology is perfected. An omnipotent god would be able to prevent all evil, not just evil after technology is perfected. An omniscient god would know how to prevent all evil, not just evil after technology is perfected.
If a tri-omni god existed, there would not be any evil.
If evil exists, there is no tri-omni god.
If a person believes in both evil and a tri-omni god, that person is wrong.
No.Does that effect the effectiveness of the argument?
An omnibenevolent god would want to prevent all evil.I am thinking that most of the argument from evil can be pawned off on human responsibility and or a state of events that human technology will conquer in the future. (Or already has)
An omnipotent god could prevent all evil.
An omniscient god would know how to prevent all evil.
Therefore, if a tri-omni god existed, there would be no evil.
But many people believe a tri-omni god coexists with evil. That's a logical contradiction, an impossibility.
The Problem of Evil (PoE) is just people noticing that you can't have a tri-omni god in the same universe with evil. People who believe in such a god---and who also believe in evil---are patently wrong.
So, no, blaming evil on people does not undermine the PoE. If you want to posit a god who only opposes evil that isn't man-made, then you can maybe have that god. But that god isn't omnibenevolent. He's only partly benevolent.
The fact that technology may reduce evil does not undermine the PoE. An omnibenevolent god would oppose all evil, not just evil after technology is perfected. An omnipotent god would be able to prevent all evil, not just evil after technology is perfected. An omniscient god would know how to prevent all evil, not just evil after technology is perfected.
If a tri-omni god existed, there would not be any evil.
If evil exists, there is no tri-omni god.
If a person believes in both evil and a tri-omni god, that person is wrong.
Re: hi
Post #20[Replying to post 16 by Mr. LongView]
The PoE disproves only a particular type of god. But, when that's the kind of god you are talking about, the PoE is bulletproof.As an agnostic I have all kinds of objections (well more like head scratchers) to god, but the argument from evil seems like one of the least swallowable reasons I run into.
