Bs'd
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the people of Israel, and not JC.
For the finer details look here: www.geocities.com/Metzad/Isaiah53.htm
Eliyahu
About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Isaiah 53 and Jews in the afterworld ...
Post #31Lorens wrote:Dear friend ...
Bs'd
Dear Lorens,
Also you can't bring any evidence from the Hebrew Bible that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Can we now at least agree that there is no proof whatsoever in the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
Eliyahu
The way you discuss portrayed in heaven ...
Post #32Dear Friend ... good day to you ...
... well ... it is not about 'discussing' or 'debating' but about the way you are doing it ... which is pointless ...
About this way and people who are engaged in the same ... Emanuel Swedenborg reported the following from heaven:
Endless debating
The learning of the present day scarcely passes the point of debating whether a thing has any existence, and whether it is thus, or thus; the result of which is that men are shut out from the understanding of truth. For example: he who merely disputes whether there is an internal sense of the Word can never see the innumerable, nay, illimitable things which are in the internal sense; and again, he who disputes whether charity is anything in the church, and whether all things of this are not of faith, cannot possibly know the innumerable, nay, illimitable things which are in charity, but remains in complete ignorance of what charity is.
The like is the case with the life after death, with the resurrection of the dead, with the last judgment, with heaven and with hell-they who merely debate whether these things exist, stand meanwhile outside the doors of wisdom, and are like persons who merely knock, and cannot even look into wisdom's magnificent palaces. And yet strange to say such men believe themselves to be wise in comparison with others, and that they are wise in proportion to their ability to debate whether a thing be so, and especially to prove that it is not so; when yet the simple who are in good, and whom they despise, can perceive in a moment, without any dispute, much more without learned controversy, that the thing is, and what is its quality. These have a common sense of the perception of truth, whereas the former have extinguished this sense by such methods, in desiring first of all to discuss whether the thing has any existence. The Lord speaks both of the former and of the latter when He says that things are hidden from the wise and intelligent, and revealed unto babes (Matt. 11:25; Luke 10:21).
E.Swedenborg Arcana Coelestia " 3428:2, 3
***
Therefore reasoning only whether it exists is like arguing about a hat without wearing it, or about a shoe without putting it on. What can come of this, except ignorance whether anything exists, whether anything is more than an idea, and so whether salvation exists, or everlasting life after death, whether one religion is better than another, or whether heaven and hell exist? You cannot have any thoughts on these subjects, so long as you are bogged down at the first step and pound the sand there, unable to put one foot in front of the other and make progress. Take care that, while your minds stand in the open outside the court, they do not inwardly grow ossified and turn into pillars of Salt.'
With these words I left them, and they were so incensed they threw stones after me. Then they looked to me like carvings, totally devoid of human reason. I asked the angels what was their fate. They said that the worst of them are plunged into the depths, and there they find a desert, where they are forced to carry loads. Since they can then make no reasonable utterance, they chatter and make idle remarks, Seen from a distance there they look like donkeys carrying loads.
E.Swedenborg 'True Christian Religion " 333:4'
May His spirit leads you toward the Truth ... Which is Christ Jesus
Lorens
... well ... it is not about 'discussing' or 'debating' but about the way you are doing it ... which is pointless ...
About this way and people who are engaged in the same ... Emanuel Swedenborg reported the following from heaven:
Endless debating
The learning of the present day scarcely passes the point of debating whether a thing has any existence, and whether it is thus, or thus; the result of which is that men are shut out from the understanding of truth. For example: he who merely disputes whether there is an internal sense of the Word can never see the innumerable, nay, illimitable things which are in the internal sense; and again, he who disputes whether charity is anything in the church, and whether all things of this are not of faith, cannot possibly know the innumerable, nay, illimitable things which are in charity, but remains in complete ignorance of what charity is.
The like is the case with the life after death, with the resurrection of the dead, with the last judgment, with heaven and with hell-they who merely debate whether these things exist, stand meanwhile outside the doors of wisdom, and are like persons who merely knock, and cannot even look into wisdom's magnificent palaces. And yet strange to say such men believe themselves to be wise in comparison with others, and that they are wise in proportion to their ability to debate whether a thing be so, and especially to prove that it is not so; when yet the simple who are in good, and whom they despise, can perceive in a moment, without any dispute, much more without learned controversy, that the thing is, and what is its quality. These have a common sense of the perception of truth, whereas the former have extinguished this sense by such methods, in desiring first of all to discuss whether the thing has any existence. The Lord speaks both of the former and of the latter when He says that things are hidden from the wise and intelligent, and revealed unto babes (Matt. 11:25; Luke 10:21).
E.Swedenborg Arcana Coelestia " 3428:2, 3
***
Therefore reasoning only whether it exists is like arguing about a hat without wearing it, or about a shoe without putting it on. What can come of this, except ignorance whether anything exists, whether anything is more than an idea, and so whether salvation exists, or everlasting life after death, whether one religion is better than another, or whether heaven and hell exist? You cannot have any thoughts on these subjects, so long as you are bogged down at the first step and pound the sand there, unable to put one foot in front of the other and make progress. Take care that, while your minds stand in the open outside the court, they do not inwardly grow ossified and turn into pillars of Salt.'
With these words I left them, and they were so incensed they threw stones after me. Then they looked to me like carvings, totally devoid of human reason. I asked the angels what was their fate. They said that the worst of them are plunged into the depths, and there they find a desert, where they are forced to carry loads. Since they can then make no reasonable utterance, they chatter and make idle remarks, Seen from a distance there they look like donkeys carrying loads.
E.Swedenborg 'True Christian Religion " 333:4'
May His spirit leads you toward the Truth ... Which is Christ Jesus
Lorens
Re: The way you discuss portrayed in heaven ...
Post #33Lorens wrote:Dear Friend ... good day to you ...
... well ... it is not about 'discussing' or 'debating' but about the way you are doing it ... which is pointless ...
About this way and people who are engaged in the same ... Emanuel Swedenborg reported the following from heaven:
May His spirit leads you toward the Truth ... Which is Christ Jesus
Lorens
Bs'd
Why don't you have the decency to at least admit that there is no evidence whatsoever to be found in the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
Eliyahu
Re: About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
Post #34Eliyahu wrote: Bs'd
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the people of Israel, and not JC.
For the finer details look here: www.geocities.com/Metzad/Isaiah53.htm
Eliyahu
Bs'd
Geocities has passed away, here is the new link: http://Isaiah53.notlong.spam
And please take good notice that NOBODY in the above discussion can give the slightest evidence from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Here is the Biblical evidence that the servant of God in Isaiah 53 is ISRAEL:
Isaiah 41:8 " But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;"
Isaiah 44:1-2 "But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen! Thus says the LORD who made you, who formed you from the womb and will help you: Fear not, O Jacob my servant, Jeshu'run whom I have chosen."
Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you, you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me."
Isaiah 45:4 "For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name,"
Isaiah 48:20 "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob!"
Isaiah 49:3 "And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified."
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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cnorman18
Re: About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
Post #35[Replying to post 33 by Eliyahu]
Why are you resurrecting -- you'll pardon the expression -- threads from 7 or even 8 years ago?
Why do your posts appear, in word-for-word identical form, on forums all over the Net?
Why are you resurrecting -- you'll pardon the expression -- threads from 7 or even 8 years ago?
Why do your posts appear, in word-for-word identical form, on forums all over the Net?
Re: About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
Post #36[Replying to cnorman18]
Bs'd
Because I want to be a light unto the nations, to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in spiritual darkness.
.
Bs'd
Because I want to be a light unto the nations, to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in spiritual darkness.
.
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Goat
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Re: About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
Post #37Eliyahu wrote: [Replying to cnorman18]
Bs'd
Because I want to be a light unto the nations, to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in spiritual darkness.
.
In other words, you are not here to debate, but provide proselytizing.
Do you know what 'debate' is?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
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Danmark
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Post #38
Eliyahu wrote:Eliyahu wrote: Bs'd
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the people of Israel, and not JC.
For the finer details look here: www.geocities.com/Metzad/Isaiah53.htm
Eliyahu
Bs'd
Geocities has passed away, here is the new link: http://Isaiah53.notlong.spam
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Danmark
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Re: About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
Post #40No. You are not debating. You are just advertising your website without paying for the privilege; i.e., you are engaging in theft of services.
You are also disrespecting Judaism by prefacing your spam with your iliterate version of " "" ."
