THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

[KCKID]

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.� I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality. I mean, if Christians REALLY desire to condemn ‘sin’ as they perceive it they could give homosexuals a break and instead have a field day targeting the many other human behaviors going on within society that God appears to hate. But …they don’t . . .well certainly not with the same zeal they do toward homosexuality.

So, what is going on here? Does the Bible really condemn sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender? Or, does the Bible not address the matter of homosexuality at all …or, at least, not as we today recognize homosexuality? Would the Bible authors have even been aware of one’s innate sexuality as well as the complexities surrounding sexuality in general? Or, in simple terms, would they, as with many males of today, have regarded some males as 'effeminate' (or ‘sissies’) based on both ignorance and their own perceived cultural image of the ‘alpha male’? Or, if these authors were considered to be writing by divine authority, might we then say that God is the instigator of such ignorance and has allowed this ignorance to persist from generation to generation?

My main question in this thread is: of the ‘thimble-full’ of scriptures that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality (sexual attraction/desire directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex), how many of these texts might be considered to be far too ambiguous (open to several possible meanings or interpretations) to have caused such a furor within Christendom in general and specifically resulted in the division of a number of present-day Christian denominations? Can these few scriptures be analyzed so accurately that they can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to condemn homosexuality as we refer to the term today? I say no …they cannot. I’ve given my reasons in the past and will do so again if challenged.

Please discuss the below scriptures, as best you can, exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Note: I've purposely used the NIV for the following texts.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

Should there be other related Bible texts to the topic feel free to present them based on the above criteria for analysis. I purposely omitted the Sodom and Gomorrah saga since it's been done to death and quite clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. However, likewise feel free to present that strange tale for discussion should you find it to be relevant.

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

[Replying to post 10 by KCKID]

I can't tell which is worse: Christians who simply thump their bible without reading it, or Christians knowledgeable in it and still following it as a holy text.

[99percentatheism]

Choosing to engage in homosexuality

Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Simply beyond belief.

If there is any behavior that is the perfect definition of choice behavior, it is the thoughts to of action to the engaging of homosexual acts.

And that the Gospels, or Christian life and worldview is "simply beyond belief" for you, is not my burden to undertake to get you to comprehend. If you cannot grasp the presentation of a Christian life in the Gospels and other New Testament is simply a matter that I have no desire to take up. And indeed, you are free to live your life any way that you choose . . . and that includes behaviors you desire too.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.�

It is an abomination, not just a sin. It is behavior that exists outside of the worldview and life described for people that follow the God of Abraham. There is no compatibility with same gender sex acts and what is supposed to be acceptable sexuality for a man and woman/husband and wife. Choosing to engage in homosexuality is a choice that has consequences.

I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality.

Too bad. If you do not want to consider the religious choices of others than you are daringly close to persecution of the faithful. There is no such thing as positive homosexuality anywhere in the Bible.

And in any event, if this is a personal issue for you, which you just define that it is . . . invent your own religion or find solace in organizations that celebrate and encourage people to engage in homosexuality and allow others the right to reject your new religious demands.

'Fraid not on this thread, 99percent.

Is this the same thing as saying "Nuh-uh?" Because what I wrote is indeed very sensible in light of your historic margins and propaganda techniques employed as such.

There's criteria to be followed - which you haven't - and so the above by you is not worth reading. How about you try again? We've heard a lot from you over the months with regard to your blanket condemnation of homosexuality as per, YOU say, the Bible.

So then you DO read my posts. Which are honest and sensible rebuttals to liberal and gay theology.

This is your big chance to give an analysis of the actual scriptures I presented with which to affirm your 'Christian' stance on this issue.

Some of which you learned from me. The entire Bible "affirms" my Christian stance on the issue and YOU have to appeal to a 20th and 21st gay pride movement to "affirm" yours. WHO is the "WE" of YOUR understanding of same gender sex acts "as YOU understand it today?" Of course gay pride activists and liberal theologians.

When you take into consideration the description of what Onan did "in the Bible" it is clear that "the Bible" knows what biology and anatomy is and what is sexual behavior and what isn't.

Personally, I don't believe that they pertain to homosexuality as we refer to it nowadays at all. But, by all means, prove me wrong.

Prove what wrong? Your "personal opinions???? I have never veered from your rights to define your morality AND your new theology any way you enjoy to do it. YOU are entitled to your opinion from now and forever. But you are not entitled to redefine "the faith delivered only once to the saints" and force others to follow your new inventions. Well, I guess you CAN force people to do it, but "in my opinion" that would be persecution of The Church.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

KCKID

“ . . . like Goebbels said, working for Hitler,

you tell a lie enough times the [

whole world will believe it.�

- Reverend Dr. Mel White

Further to - but not to detract from - the above thread starter are the following quotes from the homosexual documentary, "for the BIBLE tells me so".

A classic propaganda piece if ever there was one !!

“I can’t for the life of me imagine that God would say, ‘I will punish you because you are black …you should have been white; I will punish you because you are a woman …you should have been a man; I punish you because you are a homosexual …you ought to have been heterosexual …� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There’s nothing wrong with a 5th-Grade understanding of God …as long as you’re in the 5th-Grade.� Reverend Dr. Laurence C. Keene

“You have to THINK when you read the Bible which is why, before the Reformation, perhaps the Roman Catholics were right saying ordinary people shouldn’t be reading the Bible because usually they get it wrong …and, I’m convinced, that usually we do.� Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have been conditioned to hold these beliefs by the Church – and it really has been the Church that is the place where the prejudice was born and was nurtured and has been promoted.� - Reverend Jimmy Creech, Faith in America


“Biblical literalists are people who know the truth absolutely …and so they’re not able to engage in a conversation …they’re only able to engage in a pronouncement.� - Right Reverend Richard Holloway, Bishop of Edinburgh (Ret.)

“For a long time the Bible has been misused to support prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, the second-class citizenship of women …now it’s being used …misused … to condemn gay people. It’s an old trick that Fundamentalist Christians have been using throughout the ages …and now, they’re doing it again.� - The Reverend Dr. Mel White


“The sin with which we should be concerned is not homosexuality, because I don’t believe that that IS a sin …the sin, however, is homophobia, the fear and loathing of homosexuality, that IS a sin, and it’s a more egregious sin because it’s often in the name of scripture by religious people.� - Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have very perversely used “difference� to justify the cruelty of the most vicious sort …I equate homophobia to the injustice of apartheid …and that’s SO contrary to the heart of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.�

- Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There were two things that I remember (from the Bible) that were abominations …homosexuality and suicide and I’ll never forget thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh, you can never commit suicide because you’re gonna go to hell, but you can never be gay because you’re gonna go to hell.’�

- Chrissy Gephardt (lesbian daughter of former Democrat Politian, Dick Gephardt)


“The Bible is the word of God through the words of human beings speaking in the idiom of their time …and the richness of the Bible comes from the fact that we don’t take it as literally so, (as if) it were dictated by God.� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There are about six or seven verses in all of scripture that speak to, even remotely, what we might call homosexual activity or homosexual conduct.�
- Reverend Peter Gomes

What is it that you intended to impart with this post, 99percent?

That it is propaganda tactics and techniques used by gay pride proponents. There is not one shred of support anywhere in the Bible for gay pride or the affirming of homosexual acts. But as even you have presented, there is a consistent rejection of it.

Remember that your 'Christian' slur (and that of mainstream Christianity) toward homosexuals and homosexuality in general is based on nothing other than those scriptures I presented in my initial post.

There is no foundation to your accusation here. As it is fact, there is no affirming position anywhere in the Bible of gay pride or homosexuality "as we understand it today" or at any other time in history. And the Bible represents history.

My claim is that they have been misappropriately used with which to demean and dehumanize homosexual people.

And you are entitled to your opinion in your own little world and worldview. But history has proven that same gender sex acts are not compatible with Christian theology or Christian life as it is clearly presented in the Bible. But if you, like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and many, many, many other expressions of a bible-based religious movements, want to claim some kind of validation for your neo-orthodoxy, than we have the right to reject your new inventions.

Since it's YOU and YOURS making these claims then the onus is on you and they to prove that these scriptures are indeed saying what you/they claim they are saying.

Which we do. You reject the scriptures and us. So what? Invent your own little religion and stop labeling us the bad guys. We are Christians the same as the Apostles and Disciples. We are supporting the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. We are the historic and consistent Christian Church. And in that definition is the reality that many people will reject Christ, the Gospels, The Church and go their own way.

When have I EVER said yiou do not have the right to invent a new religion based on celebrating homosexual behavior? In fact I have written an entire thread about that. How tolerant of diversity I am.

You claim some kind of anti-Christian conspiracy with regard to some, I believe, fictitious 'gay agenda' that you persistently harp about.

If it were fictitious, we wouldn't be writing anything about it in thread and after thread after thread. And Christians wouldn't be persecuted for standing against it as we write. Including the way I am treated at this website.

I would suggest that, if there be any conspiracy at all, it's rather a conspiracy against gay people as created by 'the Christian Church'.

"Gay?" We used to enjoy that word before it was taken over by propaganda. In fact we used to sing about how gay we were when:

Don we now our gay apparel, fah, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah.

My how propaganda does alter the meanings of things huh?

"Deck the Halls" or "Deck the Hall" (which is the 1877 title) is a traditional Christmas, yuletide, and New Years' carol. The melody is Welsh dating back to the sixteenth century, and belongs to a winter carol, "Nos Galan", while the English lyrics date to 1862.

The English lyrics first appeared . . .

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deck_the_Halls

Since you've so far ignored them and have merely given a meaningless but rather typical rant, here are those scriptures again for you to address:

That "rant" used to be called an "apologia" before propaganda came along and changed Christian truth into hate speech.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

Jesus preached that. He was after all, and impressive Torah teacher.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Repent and sin no more. As Paul preaches: "Such WERE some of you." And same sex behavior in Roman times was exactly the same procedure as it is "in our understanding" today. Care to deny that? I do believe that human anatomy and biology hasn't changed in ONLY 2000 years KCKID.

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

This may be the scriptures that should be used to say: Why would any Christian care to preach to a homosexual since God, has given them over to their lusts. Their "shameful" lusts?

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

You learned abut Jude from me. And there is no way any propaganda tactics and techniques can alter the condemnation of his words to those that enter the Church for a license for immorality.

Mel White, whom you have referenced represents an adulterer, a divorcee and not only an Unrepentant person, but one that demands to have his sins celebrated by the Christian Church worldwide. YOU KCKID, have railed on and on about adultery, adulterers and the hypocrisy of the matter in the Church and by Christians and yet YOU reference a man that not only divorced his wife and kids for a homosexual lover, but celebrated the divorce WITH his wife and kids. It is on his website. Or used to be. I knew of Mel White before you even started your gay activism.

Please discuss the above scriptures exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?

The observation is that same gender sex acts are to be refused and are inappropriate for the followers of God. Or, that is, the God of the Bible.

interpretation: what do the passages mean?

Same gender sex acts are an abomination and are "detestable acts." In the NIV which you source.

correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?

There is no difference at all. Human anatomy, biology and sexual behavior are the same.

application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Christians all over the world should now recognize (and ARE) the attack and persecution on The Church from secular, non and anti Christian forces . . . and "Contend for the faith, delivered only once to the Saints."

Since Paul saw the exact same kinds of people enter the Church as Peter and Jude did:

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. - Jude 1:4

any person desiring a Christian life should recognize the malevolent forces (powers and principalities - Paul) arrayed against The Church and stand against them spiritually, prayerfully and physically. No matter the cost from "homosexuality" and its proponents "as we understand it today." (- KCKID)

[Joab]

There is not one shred of support anywhere in the Bible for gay pride or the affirming of homosexual acts. But as even you have presented, there is a consistent rejection of it.

And other than "christians" who should CARE???

[99percentatheism]

There is not one shred of support anywhere in the Bible for gay pride or the affirming of homosexual acts. But as even you have presented, there is a consistent rejection of it.

And other than "christians" who should CARE???

I couldn't care less.

Thanks again for the validation Joab.

[Joab]

There is not one shred of support anywhere in the Bible for gay pride or the affirming of homosexual acts. But as even you have presented, there is a consistent rejection of it.

And other than "christians" who should CARE???

I couldn't care less.

Thanks again for the validation Joab.

You are more than welcome.

And since you have never provided any evidence that what you term a gay agenda is an actual attack on your version of "christianity" you don't actually have an argument for whatever vitriol is produced here? Yes?

[Danmark]

If there is any behavior that is the perfect definition of choice behavior, it is the thoughts to of action to the engaging of homosexual acts.

And that the Gospels, or Christian life and worldview is "simply beyond belief" for you, is not my burden to undertake to get you to comprehend. If you cannot grasp the presentation of a Christian life in the Gospels and other New Testament is simply a matter that I have no desire to take up. And indeed, you are free to live your life any way that you choose . . . and that includes behaviors you desire too.

[font=Comic Sans MS]This is well worn ground. You continue to make the same errors:

1. Failing to distinguish between thoughts and behavior. Which gender a person is attracted to is not a choice, for most people. Whether or not to act on those thoughts may be a choice; however when it comes to very powerful drives such as hunger or sex, the choice to abstain completely is unnatural. Denying a lifetime of natural intimacy to others is heartless and to my mind unChristian in the extreme.

2. You constantly assert, with great passion and conviction that YOUR interpretation of Christianity is valid and the thousands of other Christian creeds, doctrines and dogmas are wrong. This is the very essence of intolerance.

Since you are in disagreement with other Christians, I suggest you take Your Inquisition to Theology Doctrine & Dogma. It's out of place here in Christian Apologetics.[/font]

_____________________________________

[font=Times New Roman]“He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself better than all�
Samuel Taylor Coleridge[/font]

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

If there is any behavior that is the perfect definition of choice behavior, it is the thoughts to of action to the engaging of homosexual acts.

And that the Gospels, or Christian life and worldview is "simply beyond belief" for you, is not my burden to undertake to get you to comprehend. If you cannot grasp the presentation of a Christian life in the Gospels and other New Testament is simply a matter that I have no desire to take up. And indeed, you are free to live your life any way that you choose . . . and that includes behaviors you desire too.

This is well worn ground. You continue to make the same errors:

Not according to Jesus, Peter, John, James, Jude, etc., etc.. I'll take their judgments over yours anytime. And I mean anytime as in eternity.

1. Failing to distinguish between thoughts and behavior.

Hmm, how interesting. Your argument and accusations are against Jesus. Too.

Which gender a person is attracted to is not a choice, for most people.

That is an opinion of a certain segment of society. And it is a rather new invention for certain reasons.

Whether or not to act thoughts may be a choice; however when it comes to very powerful drives such as hunger or sex, the choice to abstain completely is unnatural.

How absurd. Many people have proven that sexual behavior can be avoided for a lifetime. Eating is a matter of survival. Same gender sex acts are completely unnatural. Not due to newly developed propaganda charge of homophobia, but anatomy, biology and physiology speak to the "naturalness" of sexual behavior. And of course the Bible just agrees with science.

Denying a lifetime of natural intimacy to others is heartless and to my mind unChristian in the extreme.

Are you even a Christian? It would hardly be appropriate for a non or anti Christian to define what is and what isn't unChristian. Encouraging someone to engage in sin for a moment or a lifetime is quite clearly, according to Jesus, to be what could be defined as unChristian. Actually as Jesus puts it it is virtually anti-Christian.

2. You constantly assert, with great passion and conviction that YOUR interpretation of Christianity is valid and the thousands of other Christian creeds, doctrines and dogmas are wrong. This is the very essence of intolerance.

And I have posted over and over again that "they" are welcomed to ply their religion in their own buildings and on their own addresses. Look up "The Gay Denomination" thread buried probably hundreds of posts down the line by now. It was closed down for the typical bashing reasons. Interesting that the fruit of gay theology is schism and anger huh? Why not build gay Denominations and live happily ever after (?) and allow Christians to live in the historic Churches with their consistent theology that they have dwelled in peacefully for quite some time now? Why the need to force gay pride where it can never fit?

So much for tolerance and diversity from the tolerance and diversity crowd huh? I guess "progressive and liberal" means totalitarianism? I notice with utter fascination that the evangelical left looks, sounds, acts exactly like the secular left. All politically marching in lock-step. How interesting. I guess not all of us fall for propaganda tactics so easy.

And I join the club of Jesus, Peter, John, Jude and Paul quite willingly. Your "anything goes" demands do not square with Christian life. It is the perfect definition of intolerance to demand that Christians submit to gay and/or secular power and authority over their lives, their souls and their Churches. This is the very essence of intolerance.

Since you are in disagreement with other Christians, I suggest you take Your Inquisition to Theology Doctrine & Dogma. It's out of place here in Christian Apologetics.

That's fascinating. I believe you are a Moderator right? And you don't know the meaning of apologetics? Not one apologia from a pro gay proponent can be supported by one word from anyone or anywhere in the New Testament. So I am not going to be frightened by your demands.

Apologia:

ap·o·lo·gi·a (ăp′ə-l�′jē-ə, -jə)
n.
A formal defense or justification.

[Latin, apology; see apology.]


apologia (ˌæpəˈləʊdʒɪə)
n
1. a formal written defense of a cause or one's beliefs or conduct

As you are doing here, accusing me of wrongdoing, I must make my apologia towards. So you are wrong about where this issue should be discussed. And all of my positions are backed up soundly by the Gospels and the letters in the New Testament. It is not my fault that certain kinds of people do not want to follow the New Testament teachings about "the faith delivered only once to the saints."

Or, repent when they sin. That is within their own consciences to grasp. I am only concerned with my own stance before the Lord. I do not try to wipe away my sins with some kind of psychology excuse or congenital reason. I simple follow the teachings of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament. I do not believe that "the faith" can be forced to change from age to age because of mob rule or pop culture and fads. In fact, it looks like The Church and Christians are to be treated the exact same way the Romans did in the first few centuries of the Church beginnings. And I advise and also follow that we behave towards our tormentors and persecutors the same way.

And you do realize that I didn't author this thread right? So, your demand should be directed at KCKID about where to place it.

In fact how many of these Christian bashing threads posted by so many non and anti Christians should be in Doctrine and Dogma instead of apologetics???

In any event, maybe you should author a thread in the Doctrine section? If I so choose, I will contend for the faith against any gay theology and propaganda there as well. But it will be more fitting for me to do so in an apologia.

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

[Replying to post 1 by 99percentatheism]

I don't think you know what you're talking about for a number of reasons. I'll go over them now.

That is an opinion of a certain segment of society. And it is a rather new invention for certain reasons.

Why do you think homosexuality is a choice? Did you choose to be straight? I'm lesbian. I've always been a lesbian. I didn't choose to be, I just felt this way when I started to develop. I could choose to sleep with a man, but I don't really want to. You don't know what you're talking about.

How absurd. Many people have proven that sexual behavior can be avoided for a lifetime. Eating is a matter of survival. Same gender sex acts are completely unnatural. Not due to newly developed propaganda charge of homophobia, but anatomy, biology and physiology speak to the "naturalness" of sexual behavior. And of course the Bible just agrees with science.

Sex can be avoided for an entire lifetime if one so chooses, yes. Of course eating is an act of survival. How can you say what is natural and what is unnatural? Because you read about it in an old book where slavery and stoning is legal? Also, if we're all part of nature, then how can something possibly be unnatural? If you really knew anything about science, you'd see that homosexuality is perfectly normal and natural. There is no scientific evidence that supports any of the bible's ancient claims.

Are you even a Christian? It would hardly be appropriate for a non or anti Christian to define what is and what isn't unChristian. Encouraging someone to engage in sin for a moment or a lifetime is quite clearly, according to Jesus, to be what could be defined as unChristian. Actually as Jesus puts it it is virtually anti-Christian.

If you're not gay, then it's inappropriate for you to say anything negative about homosexuality. See? I'm using your 'logic' against you. And you know what? I'd rather tell someone to be gay than to protect someone's biblical beliefs by keeping quiet. You're promoting bigotry and ignorance over truth and civility.

And I have posted over and over again that "they" are welcomed to ply their religion in their own buildings and on their own addresses. Look up "The Gay Denomination" thread buried probably hundreds of posts down the line by now. It was closed down for the typical bashing reasons. Interesting that the fruit of gay theology is schism and anger huh? Why not build gay Denominations and live happily ever after (?) and allow Christians to live in the historic Churches with their consistent theology that they have dwelled in peacefully for quite some time now? Why the need to force gay pride where it can never fit?

So much for tolerance and diversity from the tolerance and diversity crowd huh? I guess "progressive and liberal" means totalitarianism? I notice with utter fascination that the evangelical left looks, sounds, acts exactly like the secular left. All politically marching in lock-step. How interesting. I guess not all of us fall for propaganda tactics so easy.

And I join the club of Jesus, Peter, John, Jude and Paul quite willingly. Your "anything goes" demands do not square with Christian life. It is the perfect definition of intolerance to demand that Christians submit to gay and/or secular power and authority over their lives, their souls and their Churches. This is the very essence of intolerance.

Christianity should have absolutely no control over political action. Progression should be more important than someone's religious beliefs. How can you honestly assume that we should bend over for the Christians as they take over politics and try to force their religion on us while acting like they're the persecuted and oppressed? You talk of propaganda and lies, yet you've been brainwashed in the delusion of religion. You've been taught that homosexuality is evil, and that civil rights are part of the devil's plan to control the world. You're the essence of intolerance, not progression or people who want gays to marry freely.


Stop acting like a victim because many might find your remarks hurtful and completely ignorant. I wouldn't have said anything about it if I didn't care. You may think that you're acting on behalf of your god, but you could be making real people's lives worse by thrusting your righteousness upon them. How do you think it feels to be gay and have someone openly call you a hell-bound sinner who hates god, or something like that? It's awful, especially if you're a Christian in a Christian family. You have no grasp of science, biology, or reason. Before you spew any more hatred, really think about your religion and the impact it can have.