THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

[KCKID]

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.� I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality. I mean, if Christians REALLY desire to condemn ‘sin’ as they perceive it they could give homosexuals a break and instead have a field day targeting the many other human behaviors going on within society that God appears to hate. But …they don’t . . .well certainly not with the same zeal they do toward homosexuality.

So, what is going on here? Does the Bible really condemn sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender? Or, does the Bible not address the matter of homosexuality at all …or, at least, not as we today recognize homosexuality? Would the Bible authors have even been aware of one’s innate sexuality as well as the complexities surrounding sexuality in general? Or, in simple terms, would they, as with many males of today, have regarded some males as 'effeminate' (or ‘sissies’) based on both ignorance and their own perceived cultural image of the ‘alpha male’? Or, if these authors were considered to be writing by divine authority, might we then say that God is the instigator of such ignorance and has allowed this ignorance to persist from generation to generation?

My main question in this thread is: of the ‘thimble-full’ of scriptures that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality (sexual attraction/desire directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex), how many of these texts might be considered to be far too ambiguous (open to several possible meanings or interpretations) to have caused such a furor within Christendom in general and specifically resulted in the division of a number of present-day Christian denominations? Can these few scriptures be analyzed so accurately that they can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to condemn homosexuality as we refer to the term today? I say no …they cannot. I’ve given my reasons in the past and will do so again if challenged.

Please discuss the below scriptures, as best you can, exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Note: I've purposely used the NIV for the following texts.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

Should there be other related Bible texts to the topic feel free to present them based on the above criteria for analysis. I purposely omitted the Sodom and Gomorrah saga since it's been done to death and quite clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. However, likewise feel free to present that strange tale for discussion should you find it to be relevant.

[Heretic Gal]

And may I just reiterate something I've asked before - why should the United States of America, a country that guarantees its citizens freedom of religion, base any part of its legal decisions - for example, its position on gay marriage - on the sacred book of any particular religion?

In other words, why does it MATTER what Jesus or Moses said about homosexuality?

Did it matter what they said about slavery? Thank goodness we figured out a way to end that abomination without requiring a special revelation from above.

[Danmark]

Again, and again, "I" am being personally attacked and personally addressed in thread after thread. The ad hom attack. For more posts and threads than I can remember, no one has ever produced any pro gay scriptures. Nothing. And yet, I am painted as the intolerant bigot and once again, as some kind of non-loving Christian.

The very definition of intolerance is from the position of altering the clear and unambiguous absolute that Christian marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And "sex outside of marriage" and redefining what a Christian marriage IS, is not justifiable ether.

I produce a multitude of scriptural support for my positions and I am blasted form every conceivable angle EXCEPT from scripture. I am the honest and forthright "Christian" and I am subjected to such hate and ridicule, again and again, for doing more than protecting honesty.
....
you of all people know that I have soundly defeated every pro homosexuality position ever offered up by anyone.

Your position is being attacked. If you choose to take that personally, that is your decision. The manner in which you present your position is of course subject to comment. Your insistence on appearing to make things personal by proclaiming your 'honest Christianity' [which can certainly be construed as a swipe against other Christians] seems personal; as does your self serving "I have soundly defeated every pro homosexuality position ever offered up by anyone."

Your legalisms are being attacked. Your insistence on the 'clobber passages' taking precedent over what other "honest Christians" consider the heart of Christianity is being attacked. Your 'clobber' scriptures' are defeated by love:

"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. — John 8: 7

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,� “You shall not murder,� “You shall not steal,� “You shall not covet,� and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.� Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law — Romans 13:8-10

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you — Colossians 3:11-13

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. — Matthew 23: 23-24"

[Danmark]

And may I just reiterate something I've asked before - why should the United States of America, a country that guarantees its citizens freedom of religion, base any part of its legal decisions - for example, its position on gay marriage - on the sacred book of any particular religion?

In other words, why does it MATTER what Jesus or Moses said about homosexuality?

Did it matter what they said about slavery? Thank goodness we figured out a way to end that abomination without requiring a special revelation from above.

Christians and members of other faiths have as much right to attempt to legislate their values into law as anyone else; limited only by the Constitution.

[dianaiad]

I will be back later on today to defend against what is in my opinion is this spurious attack on my Christian character.

But until then I will still stand on Jude's excellent advice and encouragement:

. . . contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

Moderator Final Warning

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[KCKID]

[Replying to post 147 by 99percentatheism]

99percent, I can't respond to much of your above post because it's mostly about how maligned and mistreated you claim to have been for, as you repeatedly say, 'contending for the faith'. All I intended doing by initiating this thread was to try to get to the bottom of those scriptures 'pertaining to homosexuality' that have, in some cases, divided churches and led to many lengthy discussions on the subject by leading theologians who tend to agree with you.

When "I" read these handful of scriptures I'm at a loss as to how major a proverbial mountain has been made from such a proverbial minor molehill. In fact, I really doubt that it has. I find it hard to believe that some people would get SO passionate about their Bible that they would become 'frothing at the mouth' fanatics. There are MANY of these types on YouTube! No, I believe that the topic of homosexuality is much more to 'certain' Christians than their merely defending the words from the Bible. It's more a personal issue to them than that. The Bible has little or nothing to do with it. As for the average Christian, I would guess that the average Christian doesn't really give two hoots about this topic. In fact most, I believe, would accept gay people into their fold without too much hassle if not for the constant bleating about the subject from their leaders. It's the ones that claim to be the mouth-piece of God who tend to have the (rather mindless?) following of their flock.

The Church as a whole doesn't seem to have any definite position on divorce and remarriage even though this is 'verboten' throughout the Bible. The Church is rather wishy-washy on the matter ...probably for rather obvious reasons that involves membership. And, it shouldn't be a matter of triviality such as your 'two wrongs not making a right', 99percent. The Bible is clear ...divorce and remarriage is FORBIDDEN in scripture! Of ALL people it's YOU that should be just as zealous as you are about homosexuality - even MORE so! - about the Bible's condemnation of divorce and remarriage if your claim to be 'contending for the faith' is what drives you! The Church has many of these 'scriptural adulterers' sitting in its pews worldwide. But, you don't seem to have a problem with that issue at all ...even though you repeatedly quote Jesus with regard to the 'man/women/marriage thing' and twist it around as a condemnation of homosexual relations rather than its condemnation of divorce! Then again, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality so I guess one has to grasp at straws.

Anyway, I don't know where else to go with you on this topic. You clearly don't want to discuss the very scriptures that led to this present homophobic brand of Christianity. So ...I guess I'm pretty well done with you.

[99percentatheism]

And may I just reiterate something I've asked before - why should the United States of America, a country that guarantees its citizens freedom of religion, base any part of its legal decisions - for example, its position on gay marriage - on the sacred book of any particular religion?

In other words, why does it MATTER what Jesus or Moses said about homosexuality?

Did it matter what they said about slavery? Thank goodness we figured out a way to end that abomination without requiring a special revelation from above.

What did Jesus and Moses say about slavery? Please create another thread, post your opinion and let's see where it goes.

Amazing Grace was written by a slave ship captain.

Have you ever read President Abraham' Lincoln's Second Inaugural speech?

And by the way, what does your opinion in this post have to do with the redefining of appropriate sexual behavior for Christians? Why do Christians have to be forced to live their lives by non and anti Christian views?

Doesn't the secular Constitution protect Christians from persecution? How can "the United States of America, a country that guarantees its citizens freedom of religion," force Christians to accept the sexual behavior of homosexuals and bi-sexuals and Transsexual people to alter and redefine what is inappropriate for Christians. It seems the very nature of your position is that non and anti Christians can do as they see fit and Christians can too.

Seems like an end of the issue. The two positions live in utterly separate and definable categories. OK.

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

Again, and again, "I" am being personally attacked and personally addressed in thread after thread. The ad hom attack. For more posts and threads than I can remember, no one has ever produced any pro gay scriptures. Nothing. And yet, I am painted as the intolerant bigot and once again, as some kind of non-loving Christian.

The very definition of intolerance is from the position of altering the clear and unambiguous absolute that Christian marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And "sex outside of marriage" and redefining what a Christian marriage IS, is not justifiable ether.

I produce a multitude of scriptural support for my positions and I am blasted form every conceivable angle EXCEPT from scripture. I am the honest and forthright "Christian" and I am subjected to such hate and ridicule, again and again, for doing more than protecting honesty.
....
you of all people know that I have soundly defeated every pro homosexuality position ever offered up by anyone.

Your position is being attacked. If you choose to take that personally, that is your decision.

I'm sure that is what some Christians heard when the Lions were sent in to the Coliseum, by Roman citizens that had "nothing personal" against them. Just their civic positions.

The manner in which you present your position is of course subject to comment.

"Your" and "you" I'm just thinking out loud here, but that looks like a personal response to me. And I have taken it as a personal attack. But I can no longer make that stand. What I take as insulting, personally, is just exactly the same as the LGBT agenda proponents here. My positions. In real life, I couldn't stay any farther away from the issue or the people promoting it, UNLESS they enter my Church world and demand authority. Which will never happen. I just don't get to have a crowd behind me here to protect "me." "Me," as in what the "you" and "yours" defines.

I will no longer make any charge of a personal attack here. I don't need to anyway. That the sun "rises" is another immutable fact. The person with the stone no longer in their hand, knows exactly what they have done and what motivated them. Mt apologia is sound. I am guilty of no charge made against me by LGBT (and Q and +) proponents. Christian love is not in supporting sin and sinning. It is though, the very embodiment of repentance and forgiveness. That IS LOVE based and LOVE driven.

Your insistence on appearing to make things personal by proclaiming your 'honest Christianity' [which can certainly be construed as a swipe against other Christians] seems personal; as does your self serving "I have soundly defeated every pro homosexuality position ever offered up by anyone."

That is not personal. That is an absolute fact. No one, as in NO ONE has ever produced one single pro gay piece of scripture in all the time I have been posting at this website.

Your legalisms are being attacked.

"Legalism?" That's a personal insult. And you know it.

Your insistence on the 'clobber passages' taking precedent over what other "honest Christians" consider the heart of Christianity is being attacked. Your 'clobber' scriptures' are defeated by love:

Show me what the "clobber passages" are without streaking out to google to find them. If you had been following, instead of furthering accusations against me like the "legalism" charge you falsely accuse me of, you would know that I use many, many, many, many scriptures that show gay theology is not based on scripture but on the 20th and 21st century gay pride movement. That is why I must endure charges like "legalism" instead of ever seeing anyone post pro-homosexuality scriptures.

Jesus in fact, used scriptures to support his claims. The Apostles their's. I do that honestly as well.

"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. — John 8: 7

And that does not redefine marriage. That does not encourage homosexual sex acts.

You seem to be forgetting that. It is not "loving" to encourage sin and sinning. In fact, it is a worse sin:

Sin, Faith, Duty

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves.

“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them;

Wow, legalism.

. . . and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.�

I forgive many people here as I close my browser and head off into my day.

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!�

How bigoted?

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,� “You shall not murder,� “You shall not steal,� “You shall not covet,� and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.� Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law — Romans 13:8-10

Romans 2 NIV:

God’s Righteous Judgment

1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.�[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you — Colossians 3:11-13

I do not engage in homosexuality. I do not support the redefining of marriage. I do not preach either to my brothers and sisters in Christ. Nor do i support or encourage anyone to so.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!

Who was Jesus addressing? He was addressing Sanhedrin Members. If that is to be applied to "Christian leaders" that teach what is hypocrisy, then again, gay theology is not supported anywhere in scripture. Mel White and many other homosexuals are now "in the church" as "teachers" and they are not teaching what is Christian truth. Jesus ALSO used scripture to defend his positions. Is Jesus also to be considered a homophobe, bigot and hater?

You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. — Matthew 23: 23-24"

The LGBT pride movement comes from the world and its ways. It did not arise out of a Christian sermon somewhere. It is a political social activist movement that is supported, cheered on and "legalized" by the world. At least the "western world."

The "Stonewall Riots" were not a Church service. Um, A "Christian Church" service.

Frank Kameny soon realized the pivotal change brought by the Stonewall riots. An organizer of gay activism in the 1950s, he was used to persuasion, trying to convince heterosexuals that gay people were no different than they were. When he and other people marched in front of the White House, the State Department and Independence Hall only five years earlier, their objective was to look as if they could work for the U.S. government.[27] Ten people marched with Kameny then, and they alerted no press to their intentions. Although he was stunned by the upheaval by participants in the Annual Reminder in 1969, he later observed, "By the time of Stonewall, we had fifty to sixty gay groups in the country. A year later there was at least fifteen hundred. By two years later, to the extent that a count could be made, it was twenty-five hundred."[28]

Similar to Kameny's regret at his own reaction to the shift in attitudes after the riots, Randy Wicker came to describe his embarrassment as "one of the greatest mistakes of his life".[29] The image of gays retaliating against police, after so many years of allowing such treatment to go unchallenged, "stirred an unexpected spirit among many homosexuals".[29] Kay Lahusen, who photographed the marches in 1965, stated, "Up to 1969, this movement was generally called the homosexual or homophile movement.... Many new activists consider the Stonewall uprising the birth of the gay liberation movement. Certainly it was the birth of gay pride on a massive scale."[30]

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_pride# ... background

[KCKID]

Doesn't the secular Constitution protect Christians from persecution?

By 'persecution' do you mean the outcry aimed at certain Christians such as "bigot!" and "homophobe!" and, perhaps, "hypocrite!" ...? If the shoe fits the one on the receiving end of these cries then no less than this kind of retaliation from those they persistently malign should be expected. But, it's hardly persecution ...rather, deserving.

How can "the United States of America, a country that guarantees its citizens freedom of religion," force Christians to accept the sexual behavior of homosexuals and bi-sexuals and Transsexual people to alter and redefine what is inappropriate for Christians. It seems the very nature of your position is that non and anti Christians can do as they see fit and Christians can too.

Does one's rights for freedom of religion outrank the rights of those that want freedom FROM religion?

Christianity should not be a 'religion' anyway. It should be a relationship (symbolic) with a biblical Christ whose overall message was to 'love one another'. Some Christians actually do this.

Once again you refer to 'what is appropriate for Christians'. 'Christian appropriateness' clearly includes the myriad of Christian couples throughout the world who are on their second or third marriages that sit comfortably in the Church pews each week and are welcomed by the congregants. Hmmm . . .did I mention above the outcry of "hypocrite!" ...?

[Joab]

@99%
You have so far failed to provide any support for your claim:

activists now that want to force pride of same gender sex acts into and onto Christianity,

Please supply the support or withdraw the claim.

[McCulloch]

And may I just reiterate something I've asked before - why should the United States of America, a country that guarantees its citizens freedom of religion, base any part of its legal decisions - for example, its position on gay marriage - on the sacred book of any particular religion?

In other words, why does it MATTER what Jesus or Moses said about homosexuality?

Did it matter what they said about slavery? Thank goodness we figured out a way to end that abomination without requiring a special revelation from above.

Over a millennium of Christian domination in the West and slavery continued. The rejection of Christian dogma known as the Enlightenment take hold and the abolitionist movement gains ground.

What did Jesus and Moses say about slavery? Please create another thread, post your opinion and let's see where it goes.

Amazing Grace was written by a slave ship captain.

No one will dispute the historical fact that a good number of profession Christians did join the abolitionist movement and that they saw it as an extension of their Christian values.

Have you ever read President Abraham' Lincoln's Second Inaugural speech?

Yes. In it Lincoln expresses that while men on both sides of the Civil war assert that God was on their side, he asserts that the Divine will cannot be truly known.

The will of God prevails — In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong. God cannot be for, and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God's purpose is somewhat different from the purpose of either party — and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect this.

And by the way, what does your opinion in this post have to do with the redefining of appropriate sexual behavior for Christians? Why do Christians have to be forced to live their lives by non and anti Christian views?

Christians, granted the freedom of religion, should be free to prohibit among their number any sexual behavior that they deem unsuitable to the Christian doctrine.

No one, as in NO ONE has ever produced one single pro gay piece of scripture in all the time I have been posting at this website.

Personally, I have no interest in whether or not homosexuality is allowed or prohibited in a religion that I am not a part of, so long as they make no efforts to compel me to abide by the rules of their religion. Neither do I care about the rules about Kosher or Halal food. However, since the Christians have made repeated attempts to make their personal and religious prohibitions into law, I have become interested. It would be of great value for those who champion the case for liberty and freedom, if we could find inconsistency and hypocrisy in the current anti-gay viewpoints held by the Christians.