If you were sentenced to death

[Elijah John]

If you were sentenced to death, say for petty theft....

And if the judge told you that he loved you and intended to adopt you into his family, in spite of the death sentence you "deserved",

But that to satisfy his demand for justice and in order to forgive you, he intended send his own son (who has never commited a crime) to the electric chair in your place, as long as you accepted that action as a "gift", and understood that the judge's son had "volunteered".

And then the judge waived all future death sentences (deserved or not) because his son had volunteered to give his life to pay for the crimes of criminal humanity.

Questions for debate:

Would that be an act of lovingkindness?
Would that judge be just?

How is this story similar or dissimilar to Christian substitionary atonement theology?

What is wrong with this picture? (let us count the ways)

[Zzyzx]

.

And in the New Creation, the lamb will sleep next to the lion.

And, lions will eat grass -- and sharks will eat seaweed. Right?

[nothead]

[Replying to post 21 by Zzyzx]


Are you making fun of me? I can take a joke.

But this one......ah. Sharks don't eat seaweed? Don't like sushi then.

Haaaaa. Okay then two bad jokes don't a funny make.

Yeah. New Creation has all things put back into harmony. Fall and Adam and the one who tempted him put things out of whack.

Got a BETTER explanation as to why we eat each other? Animals too? Joey Knothead too?

[Elijah John]

How is this story similar or dissimilar to Christian substitionary atonement theology?

What is wrong with this picture? (let us count the ways)

The difference is, Jesus was sent to declare forgiveness.

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

Just want to add, I think this passage from Luke (and the Beattitudes) is the essence of the Gospel message. Nothing about shedding blood to atone, or dying IN PLACE of anyone.

And it is my understanding that the "year of the Lord" which Jesus and Isaiah proclaim, is the "jubilee year" in which Jews are required every 7th year to forgive debts, and to even let their fields rest and lie fallow. (folks who know the Torah better than I, please correct me if I'm wrong).

1213's take on forgiveness through Jesus declarations do not even necessitate that Jesus himself be Divine, or a 2nd person of any trinity. He would simply have only been APPOINTED by God to declare forgiveness to the repentant. The question of Jesus supposed Divinity is another matter altogether. Not sure if that is part of 1213's intention in posting his position here, but I think that is an implication of it, anyway.

In this reading of forgiveness through Jesus, he would not even of necessity have had to been executed. That is IF the Temple authorities had recieved his declarations and message of forgiveness, instead of having opposed him for it.

[Zzyzx]

.

And in the New Creation, the lamb will sleep next to the lion.

And, lions will eat grass -- and sharks will eat seaweed. Right?

Are you making fun of me? I can take a joke.

Making fun of the idea that carnivores will stop eating other animals.

Yeah. New Creation has all things put back into harmony. Fall and Adam and the one who tempted him put things out of whack.

That must be comforting to those who accept the tale as true.

Got a BETTER explanation as to why we eat each other? Animals too? Joey Knothead too?

I prefer to think that in the real world some animals (including microscopic) feed on other animals and that only in fantasy do they not do so.

[nothead]

Making fun of the idea that carnivores will stop eating other animals.

It could happen, right? Why not?

Yeah. New Creation has all things put back into harmony. Fall and Adam and the one who tempted him put things out of whack.

That must be comforting to those who accept the tale as true.

Actually to be put at 'rest' or comfort is the will of God for all.

Call me a baybee. The shadow of the wing of God.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

[
I prefer to think that in the real world some animals (including microscopic) feed on other animals and that only in fantasy do they not do so.

Real world is awry. Buddhist deal with what is. Christians deal with God's ideal will, which will come to pass. And we are participants in this.
Amen.

Scientists don't normally speak of God. Can't speak of what you cannot observe empirically.

[Nickman]

Making fun of the idea that carnivores will stop eating other animals.

It could happen, right? Why not?

Because their digestive systems cannot do so.

[Zzyzx]

.

Making fun of the idea that carnivores will stop eating other animals.

It could happen, right?

Anything can be claimed to "could happen" – including water magically turning into wine, people walking on water, long dead bodies coming back to life. Many believe those things based on what was proposed by religious promoters long ago and far away.

Why not?

Biology

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Another version (popular in the military unit with which I served many decades ago): "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil because I am the meanest (expletive deleted) in the valley."

I prefer to think that in the real world some animals (including microscopic) feed on other animals and that only in fantasy do they not do so.

Real world is awry.

The real world exists as it is, whether we like it or not and whether we deal with or not. Many prefer a fantasy world that is idealistic.

Christians deal with God's ideal will, which will come to pass. And we are participants in this.

"Will come to pass" has been promised by Christians for a couple thousand years – with frequent updates on when "the end" will occur. Some take those ideas seriously. Others do not.