Bible Contradictions

[mwtech]

I used to be a Christian and only recently become an atheist after studying the Bible enough to notice the flaws. I believe the Bible in itself to be contradictory enough to prove itself wrong, and I enjoy discussing it with other people, especially Christians who disagree. I would really like to have a one on one debate with any Christian who thinks that they have a logical answer for the contradictions in the Bible. The one rule I have is that you can't make a claim without evidence, whether from the Bible or any other source. I am interested in logical conversation, and I don't believe that any Christian can refute the contradictions I have found without making up some rationalization that has no evidence or logical base.

[LightSeeker]

I used to be a Christian and only recently become an atheist after studying the Bible enough to notice the flaws. I believe the Bible in itself to be contradictory enough to prove itself wrong, and I enjoy discussing it with other people, especially Christians who disagree. I would really like to have a one on one debate with any Christian who thinks that they have a logical answer for the contradictions in the Bible. The one rule I have is that you can't make a claim without evidence, whether from the Bible or any other source. I am interested in logical conversation, and I don't believe that any Christian can refute the contradictions I have found without making up some rationalization that has no evidence or logical base.

It appears that your argument isn't as much against Christians as it is Orthodoxy.

There was a reason Christ said:

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And

John 10
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

The OT is dim at best. Contradictions? Yep. Lies? Jesus thought so.

Even the NT has one Gospel writer saying the thieves crucified with Jesus sneered at him, and Luke (who never knew Christ in the flesh) says Jesus saved one.

The whole Bible is recognizing the truth that resides side by side with ignorance of men. Following men is where the Jews wound up when Jesus found them. Asleep. It is the spirit that quickens (makes alive) or lets us continue to sleep. Without it, we read a worldly book, convinced by men that it's God. Nothing could be farther from the "truth", as the fruits of many different doctrines divide men from it.

Just my opinion from many years of seeking.

[bluethread]

John 10
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

The OT is dim at best. Contradictions? Yep. Lies? Jesus thought so.

He is not saying that the Tanakh(OT) was given by means of thieves and robbers. In context, He is talking about those who claimed to be HaMeshiach. I know of no place where Yeshua refers to lies in the Tanakh(OT).

[dianaiad]

...Perhaps you will more readily be able to respond to the actual questions if we keep it simple.

....

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[mwtech]

It appears that your argument isn't as much against Christians as it is Orthodoxy.

I suppose that is true. If you agree with me, then I can't really argue with you, can I. Although, as I indicated in my reply to dianaiad, I don't understand why anyone who doesn't believe the bible is true would practice Christianity anyway.

[LightSeeker]

[Replying to bluethread]

It all depends if you see Christ defining, fulfilling those things made available by the Holy Spirit of the Father in the OT, or if you take a "vice versa" view. The Holy Spirit was given to man by Christ. The OT has the spirit come "upon" them. Again the OT is dim at best, until the light created the clearness and removed the darkness. The lesson of the Jews is hard to swallow, especially if you don't seek the knowledge to determine God from "like God" (angel of light).

It is the difference between a God who murders and a God who doesn't. John Chapter 8 defines this. It is backed by Paul as well as the non Canon Gospels. If one wants to return to the time before the way, the truth came, that is their prerogative. The first Bible Canon did not include the OT because of the seeing it's contradictions of how men didn't realize they were spiritually ignorant of two Gods.

Following the words of men is dangerous, IMO. The secret place is where truth reveals itself. If it were as easy as reading, all would be saved. The world reads as well as the seeker.

[Strider324]

It appears that your argument isn't as much against Christians as it is Orthodoxy.

I suppose that is true. If you agree with me, then I can't really argue with you, can I. Although, as I indicated in my reply to dianaiad, I don't understand why anyone who doesn't believe the bible is true would practice Christianity anyway.

But we see that over and over again. I know hardly any christians that believe everything in the bible is true, and yet they continue to claim to be christians. It reminds me of the joke told by Robin Williams about Gaddafi and his 'threat' to America if we crossed his line in the sand:

"OK, you cross this line, you DIE! (backs up) OK, now you cross THIS line, you DIE!" (backs up) THIS line, you die! OK, I'm sticking out my tongue now!"

For so many moderate christians I have engaged over the decades, it's a similar dynamic:

"OK, I admit that this part really is not true - but I still believe the IMPORTANT stuff. Well yeah, it appears these 15 things are interpolations/redactions/outright frauds.... but the basic MESSAGE is still true...."

The God of the Gaps continues to shrink.

[LightSeeker]

[Replying to post 114 by mwtech]

We each have purpose or we wouldn't be alive. Some identify their purpose for hoped for existence beyond death. Some don't. We each have a spirit, a mind dictating the life we choose. While some see the theology of Christianity as an illusion and physical life reality, we as Christians enjoy a portion of life seeing "it" as the illusion (so short in time) and and the gift beyond......the reality. It's why a true follower of Christ does not fear death. This makes this life better. I perceive death as the beginning. Others see an end. This was, and IS, Christs message.

We have the freedom to choose. It is offered, not forced.

[edform]

[Even the NT has one Gospel writer saying the thieves crucified with Jesus sneered at him, and Luke (who never knew Christ in the flesh) says Jesus saved one.

The highly compressed narratives of events at the cross in the gospels cover a period from 9am to 3pm - six hours. Plenty of time for the two thieves to revile Jesus then for one of them to begin to observe his quiet dignity and the fact that he had made no protest and reviled no one and from those observations to realise that Jesus was wholly without malice, the innocent victim of a wicked travesty of all that is decent. Finally, as the afternoon wore on and his own strength began to be sapped, the thoughtful thief expressed his realisation of Jesus status as the saviour sent from God and asked him to save him too - receiving an affirmative reply.

The gospels contain no contradictions, just notes of things that happened. To arrive at the full account, combine all four.

The reason for the initial cursing of Jesus by both men is pretty obvious - men who are having their limbs nailed to a wooden bar and their feet nailed to a wooden post with nails the size of tent pegs, will struggle desperately, screaming and cursing. On this occasion they were with someone who had openly described himself as the saviour of mankind, so in their agony, words like 'Call yourself the saviour: save us you useless piece of...' were bound to come out. The physiologists tell us that treatment like they suffered saps men's strength enormously so that they quickly lose the energy to scream and fall to concentrating simply on staying alive - the cursing of Jesus would have all but stopped naturally not very long after the nails were driven and the posts were lifted upright and dropped into the prepared holes. Then they had hours to contemplate things before the soldiers came and broke their legs, ending their ability to hold their bodies up, after which they suffocated rapidly.

Ed Form

[LightSeeker]

[Replying to post 116 by Strider324]

Perception.

If a group of men meet your idea of Christianity, would you follow them? If you did, do you follow the men, Christ or the idea of the mens idea of Christ. At one time, I used to believe the church represented Christ. The from much (40+ years) of study, I found that church is mans concept of Christ. Choosi9ng one o0f the 2000 different religions may bring you closer to truth................or it may not.

Truth is not proclaimed. Doesn't need to be. It is, and we seek it. The opposite is ignorance. Ignorance of love is the root of all sin. Christ said his words were spirit John 8). If we physically read Christs words, we can repeat them ( to others)and still not understand. He spoke in spirit, and we need to understand in spirit. Otherwise, the scriptures are nice stories, like Tolkien.

[LightSeeker]

[Replying to post 118 by edform]

Were you there? Christians (implied) try too hard to make the Bible the word of God. A perfect God having a book imperfect is blasphemy. The problem lies in themind viewing who told them it is God or whether one finds "it doesn't matter". If a perfect God had to rely on imperfect men to get the message out, we'd be in serious trouble. (think Spirit of Truth here). Do we have more faith in the words of men over the Spirit we are to be proclaiming?

As to a post I read several pages back about "handling serpents", if you go to an earlier Bible than that of the Catholics (Codex Vaticanus) which is what the KJV is translated from, you won't see the last 12 lines in Mark that mention serpent handling.

Try it, don't believe me:

It's at http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/

So we now question, which Bible is Gods word. The one with words added? Or the one with them missing? Plus, the Bible today seems to be missing two books over Sinaiticus.