Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

[Zzyzx]

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Astronomers predict lunar and solar eclipses with great precision – often years or decades in advance. Their predictions repeatedly prove to be true.

Religious "prophets" make prophesies (such as "the end of the world" or "the second coming") that have invariable proved to be false.

Why are astronomers so right and prophets so wrong?

[Divine Insight]

I think Jesus was not defining who will be that last generation, because he says also:

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt. 24:36

The idea was to tell all things before, so that his disciples would know in what time they are.

I don't have time to look it up right now, but I'm quite sure that Jesus also told his own disciples not to go into the cities of the gentiles that they would not even have enough time to make it through all the cities of Israel.

That hardly fits in with the idea that Jesus expected to have disciples stretching clear into the 21st century where there would be Televisions and the Internet to reach every potential person on Earth.

So I don't think the idea that we can be considered "Disciples of Jesus" in that sense makes any sense.

It seems to me that Jesus was being pretty clear that the end was near.

Oh here it is, I found it,....

Matt.10
[1] And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
[2] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
[3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
[4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
[9] Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
[10] Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
[11] And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
[12] And when ye come into an house, salute it.
[13] And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
[15] Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
[16] Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
[17] But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
[18] And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
[19] But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
[20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
[21] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


Underlined verses for emphasis.

This indicates that Jesus was telling his own disciples not to go into the cities of gentiles, because they weren't even going to have enough time to even go through all the cities of Israel as described in verse 23.

This hardly fits with the idea that Jesus expects people in the 21st century to actively be his disciples.

[1213]

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[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Underlined verses for emphasis.

This indicates that Jesus was telling his own disciples not to go into the cities of gentiles, because they weren't even going to have enough time to even go through all the cities of Israel as described in verse 23.

This hardly fits with the idea that Jesus expects people in the 21st century to actively be his disciples.

Yes, and in that it is said, before he “be come�, and according to the Bible he be come from the death. And in that it is clearly said, “you shall…�, which I think directly means those that were with him will see he be come (from death). I think it is different thing than when he speaks about the generation that sees the end of this world.

[Divine Insight]

...
[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Underlined verses for emphasis.

This indicates that Jesus was telling his own disciples not to go into the cities of gentiles, because they weren't even going to have enough time to even go through all the cities of Israel as described in verse 23.

This hardly fits with the idea that Jesus expects people in the 21st century to actively be his disciples.

Yes, and in that it is said, before he “be come�, and according to the Bible he be come from the death. And in that it is clearly said, “you shall…�, which I think directly means those that were with him will see he be come (from death). I think it is different thing than when he speaks about the generation that sees the end of this world.

The extent to which Christians make endless excuses for these ancient rumors is truly amazing. Rather than recognizing that these rumors do indeed contain extreme flaws, contradictions, and utter absurdities, they prefer to simply make excuses at ever turn of the page.

But why? Why continually make excuses for ancient fables that ultimately demand that humanity is disgusting and that we have all (without exception) have chosen evil over good and have turned against our creator.

Turning to Jesus to "Save us" from our own choice to reject God and all that is good is are only option.

How silly is this?

Think about this. If you really had rejected God and refuses all that is good, why would you change you mind now with Jesus?

If you hated the God of the Old Testament so much to reject him and choose evil over good, why change your views about God now with Jesus?

It's a religion that makes no sense.

It also basically demands that you have indeed chosen to reject God and all that is good at one point in your life (i.e. before you decided to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior).

It that true?

If it's not true, then why continually support ancient fables that demand that it must be true?

And if it is true, what changed your mind? Why do you no longer hate God and love evil?

Apparently you must have changed your mind. Otherwise you wouldn't have been in the doghouse with this God in the first place, and there would be no need for Jesus to "save" you from your lust for evil.

[Zzyzx]

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The extent to which Christians make endless excuses for these ancient rumors is truly amazing. Rather than recognizing that these rumors do indeed contain extreme flaws, contradictions, and utter absurdities, they prefer to simply make excuses at ever turn of the page.

But why? Why continually make excuses for ancient fables that ultimately demand that humanity is disgusting and that we have all (without exception) have chosen evil over good and have turned against our creator.

FEAR is a possible answer

1)Fear that if one admits that there are flaws in the "truths", stores or "God's word" their entire belief system is threatened – AND if they admit in debate that some of the stories and claims are NOT literally true, they will be challenged to show how to distinguish between fables (etc) and literal truth in ALL of the stories and claims – and they cannot.

2) Fear that death ends existence. The "afterlife" proposal offers a "work around" the finality of death with an unverified claim that a "soul" (that cannot be show to exist) "transcends death" into an "afterlife" (that cannot be shown to exist). Thus, by proposing a "life after death" the fear is somewhat (but not completely) relieved for those who believe fervently enough (with "I'm going to a better place").

GUILT is another possible answer

If people can be convinced to feel guilty for being human with typical human shortcomings and/or for "sins" committed by supposed ancient ancestors, they may be induced to worship one of the "gods" and to ask for "forgiveness" (as offered by self-identified "priests and prophets").

It's a religion that makes no sense.

Does ANY supernatural, mystery, "revealed" religion or superstition make sense in the modern real world? It may be understandable that ancient people believed that "gods" or "spirits" controlled rainfall, disease and outcomes of battles (and a proposed "afterlife") – but why believe such things (or similar) now? A great deal has been learned in the past few thousand years about atmospheric process, disease and warfare – but nothing seems to have been learned about invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities.

[Divine Insight]

It's a religion that makes no sense.

Does ANY supernatural, mystery, "revealed" religion or superstition make sense in the modern real world?

I'm speaking of even making self-consistent internal sense.

Forgetting about modern secular knowledge, I would reject the Biblical stories of a God based entirely upon those stories alone. This is what I mean by them "making no sense".

I feel there are mystical views of reality that do make internal sense. They are at least self-consistent as a fantasy. They may not make sense from secular world view. But at least they don't shoot themselves in the foot.

I mean let's face it, Christianity has so many inconsistencies that even the Christians can't agree on how to resolve them and this is precisely why they have so many disagreeing denominations. All these denominations amount to are different ways of trying to resolve absurdities. And clearly nary a one of them stands out as being convincing.

[1213]

The extent to which Christians make endless excuses for these ancient rumors is truly amazing. Rather than recognizing that these rumors do indeed contain extreme flaws, contradictions, and utter absurdities, they prefer to simply make excuses at ever turn of the page.

But why? Why continually make excuses for...

And how was my saying excuse? I think I just showed what the Bible tells, but apparently you don’t want to accept what it says?

[Zzyzx]

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The extent to which Christians make endless excuses for these ancient rumors is truly amazing. Rather than recognizing that these rumors do indeed contain extreme flaws, contradictions, and utter absurdities, they prefer to simply make excuses at ever turn of the page.

But why? Why continually make excuses for...

And how was my saying excuse? I think I just showed what the Bible tells, but apparently you don’t want to accept what it says?

Does it come as a surprise when Non-Christians do not accept what the bible says as being valid, trustworthy, or applicable?

It really does seem to surprise, befuddle, and confuse those indoctrinated or seeped in Christianity to encounter strong opposition views and questions they cannot answer. The platitudes and scriptural quotes that seem so convincing in church fail miserably when exposed to real world scrutiny -- and honorable debate on a level playing field.

[bluethread]

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And how was my saying excuse? I think I just showed what the Bible tells, but apparently you don’t want to accept what it says?

Does it come as a surprise when Non-Christians do not accept what the bible says as being valid, trustworthy, or applicable?

No, and I do not see where 1213 is surprised by that. 1213 is just being courteous enough to give the "Non-Christian" an opportunity to respond.

It really does seem to surprise, befuddle, and confuse those indoctrinated or seeped in Christianity to encounter strong opposition views and questions they cannot answer. The platitudes and scriptural quotes that seem so convincing in church fail miserably when exposed to real world scrutiny -- and honorable debate on a level playing field.

It also does appear to please those who like to ramble on about their biases to infer surprise, confusion and befuddlement when someone simply states that they do not accept a contrived premise, provides an alternate view and then graciously invites a response from the other side.

[Divine Insight]

The extent to which Christians make endless excuses for these ancient rumors is truly amazing. Rather than recognizing that these rumors do indeed contain extreme flaws, contradictions, and utter absurdities, they prefer to simply make excuses at ever turn of the page.

But why? Why continually make excuses for...

And how was my saying excuse? I think I just showed what the Bible tells, but apparently you don’t want to accept what it says?

But you are making excuses and refusing to accept what the Bible says yourself.

What is the New Testament?

The New Testament are belated rumors about a man who supposedly lived and was crucified decades before these rumors were written.

There is not a single solitary word in the Bible that was actually written by Jesus.

Therefore if the authors quote Jesus as telling people that THIS generation shall not pass before all his prophecies come true, then this was Jesus speaking live to people and the only generation he could have been speaking of was the generation of the people he was speaking to.

Yet, here you are making excuses to pretend that this could mean something entirely differently. These excuses are entirely a fabrication of yours. They are not what the Bible says, and therefore you are NOT telling me what the Bible says.

On the contrary what you are telling me is absolute rubbish that has nothing at all to do with what the Bible has to say.

And also on the part where Jesus tells his disciples not to go into the cities of the gentiles because they won't even have time to go through all the cities of Israel before the son of man be come, there is no reason to believe that he meant anything other than literally what is stated.

For you to claim otherwise, does not amount to you telling me what the Bible says. On the contrary, all you are doing is denying what the Bible actually has to say.

This is what I mean about making excuses for this lame mythology.

You refuse to even fact the facts of what the Bible literally states. Instead you are in complete denial of what it actually says, and to make matter far worse you claim that all you are telling me is what the Bible actually says.

You say:

I think I just showed what the Bible tells, but apparently you don’t want to accept what it says?

Hogwash.

You clearly are not even willing to accept what the Bible actually has to say.

Instead you are apparently more interested in pretending that you can simply avoid what it actually says, sweep that under the carpet and pretend that it should have said something else.

This religion doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Countless contradictions are shown to you, and your refuse to acknowledge any of them. You just continually pretend that they don't even exist and make up totally unreasonable excuses that don't even remotely resemble anything the Bible actually has to say for itself.

In fact, think about this. If people were going to follow Christianity using your method they would need to reject the words of Jesus and instead turn to you for explanations that cannot even be found in the Bible at all.

How silly is that?