Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[connermt]

[Replying to post 371 by 99percentatheism]

Jesus picked Him out for such a purpose.

To pick & choose what to struggle against? What is the purpose for which jesus picked him? And how do you know this purpose?

I never speak TO non and anti Christians.

How can that be true when you're doing it right now?

I have no desire to ignore people in the public or business settings no matter how they choose and/or desire their sex acts with whomever they choose to engage in sex with.

Why would you? And how would you know what their sexuality is unless you ask or they tell you? Does this lack of desire also mean you ignore their sexual habits and see them for a person instead of a sexual object only?

It very much sounds like the LGBT agenda and its legion of supporters.

Then it would appear you, like Paul, are picking what you want to hear and ignoring the other. Why is that?

Then submit something.

Why should I when we can see it happening all the time ourselves?

ut the history is there.

That's all the 'history' you're willing to look at, or only the history you wish to use for your mission?

Thanks for accepting what?

That there are etremists in all camps (and yes, I left that there for you to 'correct' ) yours included. Why would one gravitate to those extremists and make them a poster child for their cause without legitimate justification?

So you are renouncing the world and its ways and accepting Christ as your personal Savior?

How would I accept your savior when it exists only in your own mind?

Doesn't alter one bit of the theology that shows what is and what isn't Christian truth found in scripture.

Where did I claim it would? My statement was about what jesus said, not what your religion says. Many times, they aren't the same thing since your religion was created by man.

I am so right on so many things.

And wrong on so many more.

You need to get to know evangelical Christians. They got things in the right order and perspective.

Are we referring to the hypocritical ones as well?

Notice spell check says you are misspelling "Christian" with a small c? Hint? Hint?

Have you not noticed I tend to spell jesus and god as well? What does that mean to you and how does that related to the topic in which you're so dedicated?

Reality says otherwise when "testing all things" is employed.

Correct. Christians judge others - even their own kind - when, many times, they refuse to judge themselves first. You are familiar with the phrase about plank removing, as you not?

I am not confused about what is propaganda either.

Why would one be confused about the propaganda they live on?

Reality is impossible to ignore. It is why I became a Christian.

No one said otherwise. The reality is here, we create our own reality based on our needs and wants.

The manuscripts pass the testing well.

Some standards are lower than others it would appear.

Never. Not even once. I'll repeat that if you need.

You asked, I proposed a response. You didn't accept it (go figure) so you didn't really want to get an answer. Fair enough. Food for thought for future reference.

A "Doctor" comes into my Church building and says "I'm gay, do you people affirm gay pride?"

This shows what reality you're living in - judging everyone based off of one's actions? Very sad - you will miss out on a lot both bad and good.

I believe the lawsuits against Christians and the Chick-fil-A "protests" by the LGBT community and their legion of supporters says otherwise.

No lawsuit prohibits you to worship your god, just prohibits discrimination because of your religion. Protests are allowed for anti- and pro-gay people. That has nothing to do with your religious beliefs in reality. Again, you're taking an extreme and using it as your fundamental stance. Which is dishonest to say the least.

Actually trying to force me to affirm and celebrate gay behavior and gay pride by scaring me into feeling I have "hated" anyone is proof of my assertion.

Fear causes people to believe silly things. I know of no one forcing you to do anything or accept anything. However, if one does that's wrong. If one allows another to 'change how they feel' that person has serious issues IMO. After all, only the individual can change their own feelings. In other words, we are each responsible for our own actions and feelings.

It is just referencing "orientation" in its "born that way" usage.

When you reference gay people as 'gays', it's shows a negative perspective and lumping all gay people into said negative group. Whiles that fine for you to do so, it needs pointed out as, hopefully, a growing experience.

know some too. And yet they act differently when in a gay crowd.

Some do, some don't. That's what people tend to do, gay or not.

Actually I am doing nothing of the sort [...you're elevating yourself to a 'lord-type' of position.]

We will have to agree to disagree on that point!

That propaganda is getting old fast.

Agreed. Yet christians still continue to segregate others that don't believe as they do, even though christianity does evolve. And will continue to evolve.
And, in time, gay people will be accepted within mainstream christianity. It's already happening!

[99percentatheism]

Since you brought up the Holy Spirit so prominently in this post (364). I must decline to engage in debate of it (364). There are limits to what should be and shouldn't be argued and bantered about that I should observe. I'll go for the other post you entered.

So you're on a Christianity and Religion debating site, but your Christian principles forbid you to discuss the Holy Spirit? You refuse to debate the nature of God? Why are you here, besides to talk about homosexuality being a sin?

Are you claiming the Christians who discuss the "Holy Spirit" here are wrong to do so?

Pearls.

It's just ultimate respect that's all. Jesus made it clear that trashing Him and His followers have little consequences eternally, but it is my solid opinion that matters of The Holy Spirit are not something to be bantered about with non and anti Christians.

I am not at this time concerned with arguments about the solid truth of the Trinity. Anti-Trinitarians are not trying to sue Christians or cursing and denigrating the Church as a political tool or making laws forcing us to show obeisance to a sexual behavior.

[99percentatheism]

connermt
[Replying to post 371 by 99percentatheism]

Jesus picked Him out for such a purpose.

To pick & choose what to struggle against?

To deal with Truth.

What is the purpose for which Jesus picked him?

Read the NT. It's not hidden.

And how do you know this purpose?

Logic, reason, rationality. Many of the aspects as to why I became a Christian.

I never speak TO non and anti Christians.

How can that be true when you're doing it right now?

As in preach the Gospel. Pearls and all kept in a safe place.

I have no desire to ignore people in the public or business settings no matter how they choose and/or desire their sex acts with whomever they choose to engage in sex with.

Why would you?

Sometimes for distaste reasons.

And how would you know what their sexuality is unless you ask or they tell you?

I have yet to meet more than a handful LGBT's that do not announce their sexual behaviors as a defining aspect of who and what they are. Even though I never ask. Ever.

Does this lack of desire also mean you ignore their sexual habits and see them for a person instead of a sexual object only?

I have proven here in these threads that I desire to see people as people instead of their qualifying themselves as LGBT or Q and all the other letters tacked on the definition of their "community."

It very much sounds like the LGBT agenda and its legion of supporters.

Then it would appear you, like Paul, are picking what you want to hear and ignoring the other. Why is that?

Some things are ominous and some things are trivial. Pick pockets are not looking to reinvent Christian truth. Most just admit they are thieves and repent when going forward to an alter call. I have yet to see or hear even one of them claim a congenital excuse for stealing from other people's clothing as a larceny orientation.

Have you?

Yet the "born that way" excuse is open for any sinful behavior to be excused away if you take the time to think about it.

Then submit something.

Why should I when we can see it happening all the time ourselves?

Hmm, that statement seems to validate my positions here.

But the history is there.

That's all the 'history' you're willing to look at, or only the history you wish to use for your mission?

LGBT history is well documented and is immutably in an other than category when compared to Christian life. It is why I am so tolerance and diversity promoting towards the agenda and its expressions in whatever new religion they desire.

Thanks for accepting what?

That there are etremists in all camps (and yes, I left that there for you to 'correct' yours included. Why would one gravitate to those extremists and make them a poster child for their cause without legitimate justification?

Jesus is the Ultimate Extremist. Literally. No other Person in history even comes close. No doubt His followers share like-mindedness.

So you are renouncing the world and its ways and accepting Christ as your personal Savior?

How would I accept your savior when it exists only in your own mind?

Does that even look like I'm asking you a serious question? I am a Christian. I know the world well. You have made your choice. I just "respect" that for what it is.

Doesn't alter one bit of the theology that shows what is and what isn't Christian truth found in scripture.

Where did I claim it would?

You seem part of the pro homosexuality side here. I'm glad you don't. If you don't.

My statement was about what Jesus said, not what your religion says. Many times, they aren't the same thing since your religion was created by man.

If saying that brings you peace, and you will allow us peace that disagree with your choices, then have at it.

I am so right on so many things.

And wrong on so many more.

99% to 1%. That's an A in any class. And forgiveness in the only One that counts.

My basic wrong is not being able to nice to those dedicated to hating and denigrating Christians and Christianity. Guilty as charged. My theology? Pure reality. No one has ever produced pro homosexuality scriptures ever. And they never will.

I am confident that truth delivered in any container is still truth. And that I am hated and attacked here because of my attitude and not my facts is quite supportive.

You need to get to know evangelical Christians. They got things in the right order and perspective.

Are we referring to the hypocritical ones as well?

Yes of course. Those that know they are committing hypocrisy, repent of it and do not use a congenital excuse or secular laws to force them to be ignored and worse affirmed.

Notice spell check says you are misspelling "Christian" with a small c? Hint? Hint?

Have you not noticed I tend to spell jesus and god as well? What does that mean to you and how does that related to the topic in which you're so dedicated?

Typical insult and demeaning. I know why you do it. But I'm a big boy and my reminding you is a more a reminder-payback. It's not a request for decency. I know where I know on what street I am walking.

Reality says otherwise when "testing all things" is employed.

Correct. Christians judge others - even their own kind - when, many times, they refuse to judge themselves first.

I'm only concerned with the Christians that repent and do not use a congenital excuse for staying in their sins and demanding others celebrate that.

You are familiar with the phrase about plank removing, as you not?

I'm living it clear eyes and well-sighted on the subject of this thread.

I am not confused about what is propaganda either.

Why would one be confused about the propaganda they live on?

Good answer. My presence here is contending against propaganda almost exclusively. I'm glad you affirm that.

Reality is impossible to ignore. It is why I became a Christian.

No one said otherwise. The reality is here, we create our own reality based on our needs and wants.

That is "who" and what we Christians are to contend against.

The manuscripts pass the testing well.

Some standards are lower than others it would appear.

It is held that Christian manuscripts are closer to their reporting than any other kind in history. And the very fact that they are not sell-out relativistic propaganda is all the more reasons to embrace the reality they profess.

Never. Not even once. I'll repeat that if you need.

You asked, I proposed a response. You didn't accept it (go figure) so you didn't really want to get an answer. Fair enough. Food for thought for future reference.

If I posted a new Christian versus Gays thread, I could debate with myself using every gay comeback ever used here. They are as typical as a Hollywood script. But then again, propaganda is like that isn't it?

A "Doctor" comes into my Church building and says "I'm gay, do you people affirm gay pride?"

This shows what reality you're living in - judging everyone based off of one's actions? Very sad - you will miss out on a lot both bad and good.

Um, you'd rather I judge them by their looks? Judging actions is completely fair and truth and justice oriented. People here judge me fairly because I am mean sometimes to the common antagonists that insult and denigrate me here. I know I should respond to their hatefulness all lovey-dovey but I do live in this body of flesh and blood. I have a hard time not wanting to fight back against bullies. It's a trait I have had almost my whole life. It was developed when I fought against my first bully and his brother at the bus stop when I was a kid. I found out that exposing the bully for what they really are makes others know the bully is not as powerful as the bully thinks.

I believe the lawsuits against Christians and the Chick-fil-A "protests" by the LGBT community and their legion of supporters says otherwise.

No lawsuit prohibits you to worship your god, just prohibits discrimination because of your religion.

That's how the propaganda is being sold. I hear it all the time. The old adage being made politically and socially effective.

Protests are allowed for anti- and pro-gay people. That has nothing to do with your religious beliefs in reality. Again, you're taking an extreme and using it as your fundamental stance. Which is dishonest to say the least.

I read what Rahm Emanuel spoke. The "outcry" against Chick-fil-A is documented history. The "fight" against The Church by the "gay community" worldwide is not a myth.

Actually trying to force me to affirm and celebrate gay behavior and gay pride by scaring me into feeling I have "hated" anyone is proof of my assertion.

Fear causes people to believe silly things. I know of no one forcing you to do anything or accept anything. However, if one does that's wrong. If one allows another to 'change how they feel' that person has serious issues IMO. After all, only the individual can change their own feelings. In other words, we are each responsible for our own actions and feelings.

OK

It is just referencing "orientation" in its "born that way" usage.

When you reference gay people as 'gays', it's shows a negative perspective and lumping all gay people into said negative group. Whiles that fine for you to do so, it needs pointed out as, hopefully, a growing experience.

Really? It is not I that define the first "openly Gay" this or that as "openly Gay." It is the openly Gay person declaring that. And of course "openly Gay" means sexual behavior. It doesn't mean how they buy their groceries.

know some too. And yet they act differently when in a gay crowd.

Some do, some don't. That's what people tend to do, gay or not.

Really? Christians have no congenital excuse to justify mob rule behavior. None.

Actually I am doing nothing of the sort [...you're elevating yourself to a 'lord-type' of position.]

We will have to agree to disagree on that point!

I'm cool with that.

That propaganda is getting old fast.

Agreed.

Really? Seriously?

Yet Christians still continue to segregate others that don't believe as they do,

Per Jesus. You left that part out.

. . . even though Christianity does evolve.

What aspect of evolution? If you mean adapt, well that's somewhat sensible. If you mean become a new species that is impossible.

And will continue to evolve.

As in adaptation. Christians will never be anything other than Christians. Until of course when Jesus comes back. Then issues like the uncomfortable one being discussed in this thread will be gone forever.

And, in time, gay people will be accepted within mainstream Christianity. It's already happening!

Who?

Did you just write "Gay" people?

You may want to look up the theology around the Great Apostasy.

Jude shows us how to handle that. Evolving in practice.

[Danmark]

Since you brought up the Holy Spirit so prominently in this post (364). I must decline to engage in debate of it (364). There are limits to what should be and shouldn't be argued and bantered about that I should observe. I'll go for the other post you entered.

So you're on a Christianity and Religion debating site, but your Christian principles forbid you to discuss the Holy Spirit? You refuse to debate the nature of God? Why are you here, besides to talk about homosexuality being a sin?

Are you claiming the Christians who discuss the "Holy Spirit" here are wrong to do so?

Pearls.

It's just ultimate respect that's all. Jesus made it clear that trashing Him and His followers have little consequences eternally, but it is my solid opinion that matters of The Holy Spirit are not something to be bantered about with non and anti Christians.

I am not at this time concerned with arguments about the solid truth of the Trinity. Anti-Trinitarians are not trying to sue Christians or cursing and denigrating the Church as a political tool or making laws forcing us to show obeisance to a sexual behavior.

Back to sex again. No one is telling you to 'show obeisance to a sexual behavior.'
This is at least your second use of 'bantering about' regarding a discussion of the Holy Spirit. I haven't noticed such 'bantering.' Discussing the difference between 'God the Father' and the 'Holy Ghost' is not 'bantering' but among other things an effort to understand the difference or explore why and how "God" was divided into two separate, yet not separate entities.

You claim that homosexuality is specifically pronounced 'sin' in the NT. You rail against people taking some Christian position with finding that position in the NT, yet you believe in the 'Trinity' without finding that in the NT; then you say it is beyond discussing, unless one is a Christian. I suppose you also would refuse to discuss the Holy Ghost with a Christian who believes as Spong does.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 366 by KCKID]

To continue. You refer to yourself as a Christian and yet you go out of your way - as do many Christians - to dig up texts from an ancient book for no other reason than to demean and to dehumanize the Matthew Vines of this world.

That is a misplaced charge and a false one as well. I couldn't care less about Matthew Vines until he enters my world and demands I celebrate, condone and affirm his sexual tastes.

I spoke of ‘the Matthew Vines of this world’ …not specifically Matthew Vines.

They are all the same.

He has made his choice and his fate is not up to me at all. I am just to stay clear of people like him that's all.

Spoken like a true representative of Jesus Christ. Not!

Excuse me? I am following the advice of Jesus accurately.

Gay people have NOT made any more choice regarding their sexuality. . .

There is no scientific proof of that assertion.

You may be closer to following Paul, than Jesus. Jesus did not condemn homosexuality. He condemned those who follow the letter of the law instead of the spirit. He frequently spoke out against the approach of the Pharisees and others who were displayed arrogance about how religious they were.

Luke 18:
'9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.�'

The scientific evidence that gender attraction is not a choice has been demonstrated repeatedly on this forum. I don't recall anyone anywhere claiming he "chose" to be heterosexual. I have heard many who claimed they tried to be heterosexual, but just couldn't do it. Considering all the pressures and shame that homosexuals have had to endure from the ignorant and self righteous and at least in the past, from society in general, why would anyone choose homosexuality.

[Elijah John]

Since you brought up the Holy Spirit so prominently in this post (364). I must decline to engage in debate of it (364). There are limits to what should be and shouldn't be argued and bantered about that I should observe. I'll go for the other post you entered.

So you're on a Christianity and Religion debating site, but your Christian principles forbid you to discuss the Holy Spirit? You refuse to debate the nature of God? Why are you here, besides to talk about homosexuality being a sin?

Are you claiming the Christians who discuss the "Holy Spirit" here are wrong to do so?

Pearls.

It's just ultimate respect that's all. Jesus made it clear that trashing Him and His followers have little consequences eternally, but it is my solid opinion that matters of The Holy Spirit are not something to be bantered about with non and anti Christians.

I am not at this time concerned with arguments about the solid truth of the Trinity. Anti-Trinitarians are not trying to sue Christians or cursing and denigrating the Church as a political tool or making laws forcing us to show obeisance to a sexual behavior.

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[connermt]

[Replying to post 379 by 99percentatheism]

Who?

There are several churches that accept gay people - some even of current denomination!

Did you just write "Gay" people?

Nope, I wrote gay people, not like you when you say "Gay" people. What's the difference? Gay people is a accepted term whereas you "Gay" people has a negative inflection which is a direct insult.

You may want to look up the theology around the Great Apostasy.

More myths and fairy tales?

Jude shows us how to handle that. Evolving in practice.

Evolving. Christianity is in a state of evolving. Gay people (note not "gay" people )are being accepted in christianity while it deeply bothers some people. I suppose those people are being naturally selected out. Dare shame, really.

[99percentatheism]

connermt
[Replying to post 379 by 99percentatheism]

Who?

There are several churches that accept gay people - some even of current denomination!

Then end of issue. Allow the Christians that hold to the reality in the Bible to not have to endure the hate of being labeled as homophobes and bigots. LGBT's got their Denoms . . . and Bible-affirming Christians have theirs. I've always advocated for that. Nothing better than having a choice when salvation is at stake.

Did you just write "Gay" people?

Nope, I wrote gay people, not like you when you say "Gay" people.

Yeah right.

What's the difference? Gay people is a accepted term whereas you "Gay" people has a negative inflection which is a direct insult.

Doesn't work that way. "Gay people" or "gay people" is a labeling process that Christians did not invent. That neologism is exclusively by the homosexual community. As is Lesbian.

You may want to look up the theology around the Great Apostasy.

More myths and fairy tales?

Interesting that you don't think that below:

Jude shows us how to handle that. Evolving in practice.

Evolving. Christianity is in a state of evolving.

Couldn't agree with that more.

Gay people (note not "gay" people)

That you have to qualify that is not a good place to be in a debate.

. . . are being accepted in christianity while it deeply bothers some people.

The usage of the lower case c may be prophetic. I am certainly OK with a wait and see attitude. We certainly do not see a flood of "revival" in these gay churches. What we do see though is the same gay pride as we see in the secular world and its ways. Gay Pride flag and all.

I suppose those people are being naturally selected out. Dare shame, really.

Notice they are not leaving the faith though? Those leaving the homosexualized Denominations are keeping to the faith delivered only once to the saints and worshiping elsewhere. We never see a universalism or relativism in the Churches "evolving" from the Denominations taken over by gay pride proponents as well.

Now I like this direction we are heading in connermt . . . in our ever evolving debate and discussion on the gay agenda. Obviously the answer to the OP is NO. Not even in the new evolving theology being invented by the new gay theologians. It looks like evolving means leaving false teachers and false teachers and recognizing where healthy growth will be attained. Just like biological evolving. And that is in keeping with a healthy evolving right? What looks to be happening to Denominations is no different than what Chinese Christians are enduring and what the early Church centuries ago witnessed and endured as well. Maybe soon we will evolve a new set of modern catacombs? And looking at how the internet can facilitate a safe Christian life from persecution . . . maybe the new catacombs where Christians can be safe from an ever evolving secular rejection of the right to Christian orthodoxy, will be in technology rather than dark caves.

This discussion has headed in a rather fascinating direction. But then again, evolving is an intricate matter.

[Haven]

What looks to be happening to Denominations is no different than what Chinese Christians are enduring and what the early Church centuries ago witnessed and endured as well. Maybe soon we will evolve a new set of modern catacombs? And looking at how the internet can facilitate a safe Christian life from persecution . . . maybe the new catacombs where Christians can be safe from an ever evolving secular rejection of the right to Christian orthodoxy, will be in technology rather than dark caves.

This discussion has headed in a rather fascinating direction. But then again, evolving is an intricate matter.

(emphases mine)

Can you please support your claims of persecution with evidence or retract them? This is a debate site, not a soapbox for preaching your personal opinions. Substantiate or retract your claims.

[99percentatheism]

What looks to be happening to Denominations is no different than what Chinese Christians are enduring and what the early Church centuries ago witnessed and endured as well. Maybe soon we will evolve a new set of modern catacombs? And looking at how the internet can facilitate a safe Christian life from persecution . . . maybe the new catacombs where Christians can be safe from an ever evolving secular rejection of the right to Christian orthodoxy, will be in technology rather than dark caves.

This discussion has headed in a rather fascinating direction. But then again, evolving is an intricate matter.

(emphases mine)

Can you please support your claims of persecution with evidence or retract them? This is a debate site, not a soapbox for preaching your personal opinions. Substantiate or retract your claims.

Really?

The term "anti-gay" describing the holding to the faith delivered only one to the saints, carries with it persecution. Christians can be fired for being "anti-gay." Christian Craig James comes quickly to mind:

During a debate in February 2012, James said that gay people would "answer to the Lord for their actions" and claimed that being gay was "a choice," according to USA Today. He also chastised opponent Tom Leppert for attending a gay pride parade.

- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/0 ... 86832.html

I believe YOU supplied evidence in your latest thread as well by using that term "anti-gay" didn't you?