How is God not responsible for the harm caused by Satan?

[lostguest]

If God created Satan and was fully aware of the harm he wanted to cause to humanity, why would he allow him to exist, gave him "super powers" and let him loose first in the Garden of Eden and then in the world.
Here's an analogy: if a person owns a vicious dog and is fully aware of the animal's capacity to cause injury, shouldn't that person be directly responsible for any damage the animal causes if he fails to either restrain or destroy the animal. Now imagine what would anyone say if that same dog owner purposely released that dog in a room full of children and locked the doors and windows?
How is this example different from God and his vicious pet Satan?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 10 by Bust Nak]

Of course God is guilty of His own sins. Which are none....

[Goat]

[Replying to post 1 by lostguest]

If a judge let's a prisoner out of prison and the prisoner commits another crime is the judge guilty of the crime?

In the same way, God is sovereign and therefore responsible, but not guilty for our sins.

When it comes to that analogy, there is a big different. The judge is a fallible human being that does not know the future. According to Christian theology, God is infallible and would know that.


Your response does not take that difference into account.

[lostguest]

What's not being taken into consideration on the previous few posts with analogies about the devil and Job or the judge who releases the criminal is that in the case of Job, God already knows that the devil's only goal is to cause harm in one way or another so by allowing him to do whatever he wants he becomes responsible for the harm caused. Just like in my original example of the owner of the vicious dog. Everyone knows that a vicious dog will attack if not kept under control so by not doing so the owner is responsible for the harm cause by the animal. Whether the animal causes harm or not, how much harm it causes or whether the potential victims are able to defend themselves is irrelevant to the responsibility of the owner of preventing the animal from having the chance to hurt anyone.
Same thing with the judge analogy. Judges are supposed to release criminals under the assumption that they have rehabilitated, have repented from their crimes and do not plan to continue their criminal behavior. A judge who releases a criminal before his term is complete knowing that the criminal is not rehabilitated and intends to cause harm once he is free should be indirectly responsible for the criminal's actions. Wouldn't you agree that if a criminal in prison told the judge that he plans on killing a bunch of people once he gets out of prison and knowing this the judge just sets him free, the judge would be responsible for the killings?
It's the same with the devil. As God's sworn enemy, God should know that by giving the devil, power, freedom and authority, he would be allowing a lot of harm into humanity and thus becomes responsible for it. In fact, God's case with the devil is even worse than the judge releasing the criminal. It's more like a judge releasing a criminal and giving him a arsenal of weapons and a license to use them.

[ttruscott]

...

Same thing with the judge analogy. Judges are supposed to release criminals under the assumption that they have rehabilitated, have repented from their crimes and do not plan to continue their criminal behavior. A judge who releases a criminal before his term is complete knowing that the criminal is not rehabilitated and intends to cause harm once he is free should be indirectly responsible for the criminal's actions.

...

Satan is not released! He is in prison as much as the rest of us. Earth is a prison facility with rehab potential. Earth is not the measure of GOD's creative ability, it is the containment centre for those who have self created themselves as evil and who have despoiled HIS creation.

Only sinners are born as humans on earth. All are guilty and their incarceration on earth is partly to keep them from the polite society of heaven.

One subset of the prisoners on earth can be rehabilitated and repent. They have been exposed to the love of GOD and will not repent. When love fails, there is nothing left but chastisements, parental punishments, yes, the inflicting of suffering, to catch that person's attention and convince them to take the way out of their suffering, repentance.

The other prisoners have rejected all possibility of rehab by their free will decision to reject YHWH and HIS promise of rehab from their sins...which created the situation which makes their sin eternal.

So where does the pain come from that GOD uses to bring HIS sinful elect to seeking HIM again? [Think of the prodigal son whose mind turned to his Father due to starvation.] It comes from natural disasters and from the evil of oneself and others. Without living with the suffering caused by sinner's evil, none of HIS elect who were addicted to evil (just as addicted as Satan) would ever repent.

Thus in this system what you categorize as YHWH's crimes for awful suffering is actually HIS tough love approach to HIS addicted children who need to hit rock bottom of their addiction and the attenuating disgusting evil and suffering before they will return to HIM. The suffering you hate is the result of the stubbornness of HIS sinful elect resisting HIS rehab efforts. The fact that Job suffered though he was perfect in righteousness in his life on earth is a hint of pre-earth sin allowing only the guilty to be punished.

Part of the suffering meant to prod HIS people to repentance is watching and learning about the nature of sin in those who will never repent, the non-elect tares, the ones whose hate for GOD increases with their suffering and who will never, who can never, be reduced by their guilt to die to themselves in disgust and repentance so as to be reborn back into HIS family.

While the orthodox Church hates this interpretation of our suffering since it makes them the reason for the system to be in place and their stubbornness the reason for its long continuation, it is a more scripturally accurate model given Christian doctrine as true.

Peace, Ted

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 10 by Bust Nak]

Of course God is guilty of His own sins. Which are none....

Oh? But you said the judge in your example was responsible for the crime comitted by someone he lets out. How come God gets off scott free for a worse mistake by giving Satan the opportunity to comit crime?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 10 by Bust Nak]

Of course God is guilty of His own sins. Which are none....

Oh? But you said the judge in your example was responsible for the crime comitted by someone he lets out. How come God gets off scott free for a worse mistake by giving Satan the opportunity to comit crime?

Someone has it slightly wrong - only the guilty suffer and that is by a righteous decree of a judgment or chastisement on the sufferer.

Using the natural evil of the self created evil doers to deliver the suffering to the sinful elect is not illegal but a necessary part of their lesson to learn about the nature of the evil of the non-elect and so be moved to quit standing against GOD's final judgment of the non-elect.

No crime is committed if a parent chastises a child and no crime is committed if a judge brings a penalty of pain against the criminal. So the only crime that can be assessed is the crime of a person being evil to another person and I love the irony that these crimes are punished by the crimes of others against them - in other words, the world is a study on the proven fact that crime is inevitable within the fallen society of earth and will inevitably be self sustaining.

Does a judge know that by segregating criminals together they will do crimes against each other? Yes he does and it does not make him a criminal to use that system.

So this whole topic fails by missing the mark that only the guilty suffer and all suffering is perfectly in accord with the crimes of the sufferer...no innocents suffer and no one suffers more than they have earned or YHWH is not a true GOD. It fails because people see others, especially the very young, as innocents and reject the idea that they themselves are evil enough for GOD to care about them and punish them.

The Judge has no culpability in this at all.

Peace, Ted

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by Bust Nak]

It's possible to be responsible but not guilty.

* My judge example
* A parent is responsible for their child but the child is guilty for its actions

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 13 by lostguest]

Since we agree God is in charge but still allows the devil to act we should be asking why.

In Job's case we see a powerful demonstration that man can choose to freely love God. Job's suffering and example strengthens me today. Who knows how many are saved by Job?

Satan

[justforme]

Satan is harmless, He tests you to make you aware of your rotten natures.
If you weren't sinning he would leave you alone.
Satan is allowed by God for that purpose.
Simple

[Wordleymaster1]

If God created Satan and was fully aware of the harm he wanted to cause to humanity, why would he allow him to exist, gave him "super powers" and let him loose first in the Garden of Eden and then in the world.
Here's an analogy: if a person owns a vicious dog and is fully aware of the animal's capacity to cause injury, shouldn't that person be directly responsible for any damage the animal causes if he fails to either restrain or destroy the animal. Now imagine what would anyone say if that same dog owner purposely released that dog in a room full of children and locked the doors and windows?
How is this example different from God and his vicious pet Satan?

If God was the first and creator of everything, then everything is His fault in one form or another. God doesn't (or more exactly SHOULDN'T) get a free pass from logic and common sense simply because He's GOD! The only way God can't be honestly responsible for everything that has does or will exist after Him is if He didn't create it nor have any say in it.
Today's church doesn't teach that. Assuming they're correct, then God's totally responsible for everything in the most fundamental sense.
But Christians can't be havin' all that now - their god can only be responsible for GOOD Godly things!