Why should one care that God exists?

[Deidre32]

I'm an atheist but also a former Christian. Instead if asking Christians to show me evidence of god's existence (which there is no objective proof; the Bible isn't proof of anything) why not tell me and other atheists, why is believing relevant? Why should anyone care if a god exists?

If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?

Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)

Thanks!

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 139 by tortured soul]

There is quite a bit of evidence for Cesear Augustus but Aristotle not so much. Frankly the evidence to suggest Aristotle existed isn't much. However, Aristotle doesn't make any extraordinary claims. His existence is irrelevant actually. We know there was a person who wrote something down and that person and those writing have become known as the product of Aristotle. Aristotles existence is irrelevant to the claims made in his teachings.

I also don't see how your anecdote about your road trip in a beat up truck is relevant to why should one care that god exists. It just sounds like a personal testimony. Since I don't know you I personally don't have a reason to believe in your story. It is not so much as not believing you but the extent at which the claims are made. Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence.

I could tell he was getting frustrated in thought so he gunned the vehicle, pushing it to the limits. We didn't even get out of Tulsa before the engine began billowing smoke and a gut wrenching metallic crack and pop completely killed the engine.

You don't have evidence that this was the cause of the engine difficulties. Admittedly the truck was already pretty beat up. You made a correlation out of confirmation bias. This does not establish causation.

The driver, opening the hood, began cursing and kicking dirt, throwing water on the over heated engine, which only caused another massive metallic crack that had us all backing away from the vehicle.

When an engine is overheated it is not uncommon to throw water on it to cool it down.

When they returned with the water, I told the scoffer to start the engine. He stuck his finger in the ignition (there was no need for a key, the truck was old, in fact, it couldn't even get into reverse) and tried to turn it over- no avail. Once more, and the engine sparked to life.

The engine was overheated, they put water on the engine and walked to the next exit which I can only assume meant it took a while. They get back and under your suggestion turn the engine twice the second time being the charm.

If the problem is an overheated engine and you give it time to cool off it will start again. This is not a miracle. Nothing special happened other than the engine had enough time to cool off.



Finally the dramatic ending where the opinion of a junkyard scrapper says it was impossible. I dare say the junkyard scrapper doesn't know everything about cars. You don't know when the engine block cracked or where you lost the fan belt. It could have cracked and fallen apart shortly before it was parked after all you said it was driving until you reached its destination. Which leads me to believe that the engine block and fan belt were intact close enough to where y'all were going.


There are a lot of possibilities other than what I described. We don't have all the details only what you observed as an eye-witness. Which eye-witness testimony is pretty weak. Countless studies have shown that we are pretty good at manipulating our memories. I dare say there are probably quite a few things that you left out of the story through sheer forgetfulness. A detail you might not have considered important here or there. An exaggeration in a couple of places. It wouldn't have taken much.


In fact your confirmation bias is evident in what you remember

an unbelieving driver angry at god.
an impossible journey.
and your faith in god.

Frankly your story is not at all surprising. We tend to forget moments that don't confirm our biases and only remember those that do.


You can test this by asking yourself was there a similar story were you prayed to god jesus whomever and your prayers weren't answered?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 138 by Zzyzx]

This must mean that Plato never existed, or Caesar Augustus, or Aristotle,

What, of my post, means to you that those people never existed?

Your argument has no firm ground to stand upon, in fact it has crumbled before your feet.

You are entitled to that opinion. Readers will decide for themselves whether what I present has merit.

If you have proof that say, Aristotle existed, then I will believe you, I need to see his bones, for a text that has some name on it means nothing.

Notice carefully that I do not attempt to convince anyone that Aristotle existed or that stories about him are truthful and accurate.

Note also that I do not dispute that Jesus probably existed. However, I challenge claims of knowledge of his supposed divinity and/or supernatural feats.

I would likewise challenge claims of knowledge that Aristotle, Caesar Augustus, or Plato performed supernatural feats, came back to life after days in the grave, or flew off into the sky.

Whatever anyone tells me then, say, they went out to eat at a specific restaurant a couple months before and had a certain meal, nope, I can't believe them,

You are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you choose. Some people use judgment and discernment to evaluate the merits of what they are told, and seek to verify the truth and accuracy of important information. Others just believe what they are told. Most are somewhere between.

I, personally, would not be concerned about someone's statement regarding a restaurant meal unless that had bearing on an important issue. It would make no difference to me whether they did or did not eat at a certain place on a certain date.

However, if they claimed that the meal was served to multitudes using only a few fish and loaves of bread, I would not accept the tale without strong evidence. Would you?

they don't have any proof, and since they threw away the receipt and the food has already been digested and released, well, now they definitely didn't go.

Even though I wasn't there, I can tell them that what they experienced is unverifiable, inaccurate, and untrue.

A rational person CAN determine if an event has been verified. That much is correct.

It would not be rational to declare their account as inaccurate or untrue. It MAY be true or it MAY be false and/or the account MAY be inaccurate to some indeterminate degree. Thus, one would be foolish to declare one way or the other.

[tortured soul]

[Replying to post 141 by Zzyzx]

What I have is personal testimony to confirm my belief in the Christian God, the God of Israel, but that is only relevant to me, right? Which is fine, for I am the one benefiting from the experiences, regardless what others may believe. I hold my scars of a previous life, the tattoo on my neck purchased after robbing a church, the tattoo on my arm from robbing a house- and they have my testimony of a changed life when I knocked on their doors and repaid them sevenfold. My family truly holds my testimony in their hearts, having personally seen me after having my mental illness healed, which created extremely violent behavior which they had to deal with my entire childhood, at least until they couldn't take it anymore, abandoning me on the streets to be a homeless teenager- my mother even weeping at the change. But what is that, right? I met my wife strung out on heroine hitchhiking through Georgia, and she has been a part of many spiritual experiences with me- her family even being affected by what was happening. Yet, that means nothing to others, only me and those around me, right?

I have never been a part of a Christian assembly (even now), neither did I read the Bible before the God of Christianity affected my life, so I wasn't biased before. I understand that the New Testament is filled with tractates and letters that were not written by the authors who supposedly wrote them, some being written well after the sack of Jerusalem, but the message is clear, and they seemed to love Jesus and be convinced of what they were personally experiencing, but what does that matter? So, what is the point of believing in the God of Christianity? (the point of this entire thread?) He is a good God to those who seek Him, and those who pursue Him will not be unsatisfied- if they are sincere (only He would know that). The gods of the Hindus did not answer my prayers, neither did Allah, or any Greek god, or ancestral spirits, but the God of Christianity, so it is He that I continue to pursue, even to death, for apart from Him, I wouldn't be who I am today, but a mentally ill person bound for another stint in prison or in the morgue for picking a fight with the wrong person. So, what more is there to say if my foundation is based upon my personal experiences with the God of Christianity, the God of Israel? Nothing, I guess.

[Zzyzx]

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What I have is personal testimony to confirm my belief in the Christian God, the God of Israel, but that is only relevant to me, right? Which is fine, for I am the one benefiting from the experiences, regardless what others may believe.

Agreed 100%

How others react to your experiences is immaterial. It is a personal and private matter.

I hold my scars of a previous life, the tattoo on my neck purchased after robbing a church, the tattoo on my arm from robbing a house- and they have my testimony of a changed life when I knocked on their doors and repaid them sevenfold.

I do not doubt what you say – and congratulate your decision to attempt to undo wrongs committed (and have done the same myself).

My family truly holds my testimony in their hearts, having personally seen me after having my mental illness healed, which created extremely violent behavior which they had to deal with my entire childhood, at least until they couldn't take it anymore, abandoning me on the streets to be a homeless teenager- my mother even weeping at the change.

Deepest sympathy to you and your family (and others affected).

But what is that, right? I met my wife strung out on heroine hitchhiking through Georgia, and she has been a part of many spiritual experiences with me- her family even being affected by what was happening. Yet, that means nothing to others, only me and those around me, right?

Unfortunately, our personal experiences do not extend beyond a very limited sphere of influence. Our testimonials may be influential to a few people outside our immediate family and acquaintances, but for the most part they are not compelling or convincing.

I could give testimonials about all sorts of things that I have experienced and learned from (not religion related), but they would mean little to others.

I have never been a part of a Christian assembly (even now), neither did I read the Bible before the God of Christianity affected my life, so I wasn't biased before. I understand that the New Testament is filled with tractates and letters that were not written by the authors who supposedly wrote them, some being written well after the sack of Jerusalem, but the message is clear, and they seemed to love Jesus and be convinced of what they were personally experiencing, but what does that matter?

None of that matters if the writings do what you need done, help you survive and prosper, encourage you to treat others fairly.

So, what is the point of believing in the God of Christianity? (the point of this entire thread?) He is a good God to those who seek Him, and those who pursue Him will not be unsatisfied- if they are sincere (only He would know that). The gods of the Hindus did not answer my prayers, neither did Allah, or any Greek god, or ancestral spirits, but the God of Christianity, so it is He that I continue to pursue, even to death, for apart from Him, I wouldn't be who I am today, but a mentally ill person bound for another stint in prison or in the morgue for picking a fight with the wrong person. So, what more is there to say if my foundation is based upon my personal experiences with the God of Christianity, the God of Israel? Nothing, I guess.

For you the "Christian experience" (organized religion or not) has evidently been very beneficial. It does not matter if anything supernatural was involved as long as you somehow began to make decisions that benefited you and others. Congratulations. Best wishes.

Each of us has a different path in life. Some benefit from religious beliefs, others do not. I, personally, have had and do have a very satisfying, fulfilling life in harmony with others without the influence of religion. Different strokes . . . What works for one of us may not work for others . . . I do not advise others to follow my paths but rather to find their own.

[KenRU]

I'm an atheist but also a former Christian. Instead if asking Christians to show me evidence of god's existence (which there is no objective proof; the Bible isn't proof of anything) why not tell me and other atheists, why is believing relevant? Why should anyone care if a god exists?

If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?

Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)

Thanks!

Deidre32,

I was brought up Catholic and am now an atheist as well. At one time, it was inconceivable for me to even contemplate life without god. So, for me, and I suspect many others as well, it was like a safety net - never feeling truly alone, knowing full well that there is an afterlife, that god would always be there for me.

But then my inquisitive mind started kicking in, and the more I learned, the more I realized there was an astounding lack of credulity in religion (not to mention a dubious at best moral code).

One thing I was repeatedly taught was that without religion and following the rules and strictures, that I would not be a good person. That I would not have a sense of right and wrong.

Personally, I found this to be complete hogwash.

All the best!