Gay life vs. "homosexual" "acts"

[Haven]

Many anti-gay fundamentalist Christians oppose equal rights for the lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) community on the basis that sexual acts between members of the same sex are immoral according to Christian scripture and teaching. These individuals often equate queer identities with those sexual acts, and use that connection to argue in favor of denying LGB people equal protection under the law.

While I dispute that the Bible condemns same-sex sex, for the sake of this discussion I will accept the premise that they is wrong under Christianity.

That aside, homosexuality, and, more broadly, gay life, is so much more than what we do in the bedroom. One's sexuality impacts her/his relationships (obviously), social activities, choice of friends, civil rights, (and often) appearance, voice, and other external characteristics. These have nothing to do with sexual acts, but are all part of gay (and straight!) experiences.

Debate question: Is gay life all about "homosexual" "acts?" Is there more to the LGB experience than sex? Should LGB people have fewer rights because some conservative Christians don't like gay sex?

[Goat]

Haven

Why is it odd? It's not my fault that homosexuals have a community and culture. I chose a nice looking apartment in West Hollywood before I even knew I was living in a gay community. It wasn't long after that I knew I was.

West Hollywood (especially in the 80s) is no more typical of gay America than Miami Beach is typical of straight America. Even West Hollywood today isn't the way it was 30 years ago.

"Straight America?" Not part of a Christian perspective. "Christian Life" is part of a Christian's life. The LGBT community is far different than a Christian community. Christians do not support promiscuous hookups in bathrooms, public parks and dark parking lots. There is no equivalent to Rent Boys in Christian morality.

Wow. It seems to me that a lot of Roman Catholic priests, and George Rekkers might disagree with that. There are a lot of cases in the Protestant church too... and just remember, ted haggard is completely heterosexual...

Hmm, you are equating the homosexual rape of male youth to the use of Rent Boys.

For the record.

Right? That IS what you just did?

And, Haggard (or rather haggard . . . was asked (and eventually demanded) by his Church authority, to stop his ADULT same gender sexual behavior. Nothing inappropriate about that directive according to Christian truth written as such in the New Testament.

Why, I am saynig that here are CHristians who do worse.. and I notice you didn't comment on Rekkers use of the Rent Boys, to 'pack' his luggage on a trip

[99percentatheism]

Goat

Haven

Why is it odd? It's not my fault that homosexuals have a community and culture. I chose a nice looking apartment in West Hollywood before I even knew I was living in a gay community. It wasn't long after that I knew I was.

West Hollywood (especially in the 80s) is no more typical of gay America than Miami Beach is typical of straight America. Even West Hollywood today isn't the way it was 30 years ago.

"Straight America?" Not part of a Christian perspective. "Christian Life" is part of a Christian's life. The LGBT community is far different than a Christian community. Christians do not support promiscuous hookups in bathrooms, public parks and dark parking lots. There is no equivalent to Rent Boys in Christian morality.

Wow. It seems to me that a lot of Roman Catholic priests, and George Rekkers might disagree with that. There are a lot of cases in the Protestant church too... and just remember, ted haggard is completely heterosexual...

Hmm, you are equating the homosexual rape of male youth to the use of Rent Boys.

For the record.

Right? That IS what you just did?

And, Haggard (or rather haggard . . . was asked (and eventually demanded) by his Church authority, to stop his ADULT same gender sexual behavior. Nothing inappropriate about that directive according to Christian truth written as such in the New Testament.

Why, I am saynig that here are CHristians who do worse.. and I notice you didn't comment on Rekkers use of the Rent Boys, to 'pack' his luggage on a trip[/quote]

The Apostle Paul sought and out, harassed, and on at least one occasion, approved of the murder of a Christian man.

Peter denied Jesus "three times."

Should they continue in their "orientations?"

It is utterly fascinating how many times the wrongs done by people - who claim to be a Christian . . . are brought up to show how gay pride and homosexuality should also be allowed in The Church. Um er, uh, one hundred and fifty two million wrongs (give or take a few multiple trillions or so) making a right? Uhh yeah, I don't think so.

I guess though, that is the reason "the world" is defined the way it is by Jesus.

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves.

“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.�

- Luke 17


“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The Parable of the Wandering Sheep

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Dealing With Sin in the Church

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18

So, I'm just thinking out loud here . . but it doesn't look like "affirming" sin is a good idea for a Christian to do. The world and its ways? Wrongs make a right? Politics and kindergarten maybe.

It's fascinating that in Greek the followers of Jesus were the Ecclesia (ekklesia).

A whole different implementation on outing.

A whole lot different.

[Strider324]

99percentatheism scribed

Christians do not support promiscuous hookups in bathrooms, public parks and dark parking lots.

They may not support it, but they certainly commit those acts with impunity. Every woman I ever trysted with in a public park or dark parking lot was a christian - and married. But that's just anecdotal. More far-reaching is the fact that millions of christians dishonor their soi-disant faith by committing adultery by divorce.

How nice that christians can so conveniently and piously ignore the log in their own eye as they slobber over the perceived mote in the eyes of Gay people. Hypocrisy is not a concept christians seem familiar with IME.

Oh wait - this is where I'll learn that people who commit adultery by divorce are not the REAL christians......

[Goat]

The Apostle Paul sought and out, harassed, and on at least one occasion, approved of the murder of a Christian man.

Peter denied Jesus "three times."

Should they continue in their "orientations?"

It is utterly fascinating how many times the wrongs done by people - who claim to be a Christian . . . are brought up to show how gay pride and homosexuality should also be allowed in The Church. Um er, uh, one hundred and fifty two million wrongs (give or take a few multiple trillions or so) making a right? Uhh yeah, I don't think so.

I guess though, that is the reason "the world" is defined the way it is by Jesus.

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves.

“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.�

- Luke 17


“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The Parable of the Wandering Sheep

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Dealing With Sin in the Church

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18

So, I'm just thinking out loud here . . but it doesn't look like "affirming" sin is a good idea for a Christian to do. The world and its ways? Wrongs make a right? Politics and kindergarten maybe.

It's fascinating that in Greek the followers of Jesus were the Ecclesia (ekklesia).

A whole different implementation on outing.

A whole lot different.

And, that is supposed to , well, counter anything?? All it seems is 'oh, I accept Jesus so I can be excused for doing lots of bad things, while I shake my fingers at other people doing a lot less worse.

That is the impression I am getting.

[99percentatheism]

Strider324
99percentatheism scribed

Christians do not support promiscuous hookups in bathrooms, public parks and dark parking lots.

They may not support it, but they certainly commit those acts with impunity. Every woman I ever trysted with in a public park or dark parking lot was a christian - and married.

Yeah, I've read Variations to.

But that's just anecdotal. More far-reaching is the fact that millions of christians dishonor their soi-disant faith by committing adultery by divorce.

True. And you forgot to add homosexuality to that sin list. All those wrongs making nothing but wrongs.

Now for repentance and forgiveness? Hmm, I've only heard that from the Christian side.

How nice that christians can so conveniently and piously ignore the log in their own eye as they slobber over the perceived mote in the eyes of Gay people.

Perceived? How very judgmentalism of you. Now how about repentance for all that gay behavior huh?

"Such WERE some of you . . ." as the line goes.

Hypocrisy is not a concept christians seem familiar with IME.

really? we are steeped in it. That is why we preach repentance of and FROM sins.

Oh wait - this is where I'll learn that people who commit adultery by divorce are not the REAL christians......

Was the prodigal son a REAL son? Here let me help you: YES!

Just add my points to the long, long, long, long list of clobber passages would you?

[99percentatheism]

The Apostle Paul sought and out, harassed, and on at least one occasion, approved of the murder of a Christian man.

Peter denied Jesus "three times."

Should they continue in their "orientations?"

It is utterly fascinating how many times the wrongs done by people - who claim to be a Christian . . . are brought up to show how gay pride and homosexuality should also be allowed in The Church. Um er, uh, one hundred and fifty two million wrongs (give or take a few multiple trillions or so) making a right? Uhh yeah, I don't think so.

I guess though, that is the reason "the world" is defined the way it is by Jesus.

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves.

“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.�

- Luke 17


“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The Parable of the Wandering Sheep

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Dealing With Sin in the Church

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18

So, I'm just thinking out loud here . . but it doesn't look like "affirming" sin is a good idea for a Christian to do. The world and its ways? Wrongs make a right? Politics and kindergarten maybe.

It's fascinating that in Greek the followers of Jesus were the Ecclesia (ekklesia).

A whole different implementation on outing.

A whole lot different.

And, that is supposed to , well, counter anything?? All it seems is 'oh, I accept Jesus so I can be excused for doing lots of bad things, while I shake my fingers at other people doing a lot less worse.

That is the impression I am getting.

I absolutely agree with you that that IS exactly the impression that YOU are getting.

I've never once in all of the massive number of times I have watched people repent of their sins, and of course before or after I repented of my sins . . ., ever once shake their fingers (or anything else) at other people, whether they were repenting of their sins or not. You see, we Christians that hold to the faith don't make excuses - whether a congenital one . . . or just plain ol' I'm gonna do that anyway . . . kind of sinning. We just recognize that we are human beings, repent and try our hardest to go and sin no more. Which, as Jesus made clear, is not to encourage others to sin. THAT is a WORSE kind of sin and sinning. Nope, no sin pride parades in Christian truth. Unless of course you count baptism.

Nice chattin' with you. I'm booked here all week.

[Strider324]

Strider324
99percentatheism scribed

Christians do not support promiscuous hookups in bathrooms, public parks and dark parking lots.

They may not support it, but they certainly commit those acts with impunity. Every woman I ever trysted with in a public park or dark parking lot was a christian - and married.

Yeah, I've read Variations to.

But that's just anecdotal. More far-reaching is the fact that millions of christians dishonor their soi-disant faith by committing adultery by divorce.

True. And you forgot to add homosexuality to that sin list. All those wrongs making nothing but wrongs.

No, homosexuality is definitely on that list, on the same page as the sin of the disobedient child that must be stoned to death by the village. But based on your postings, for you - it is the ONLY sin worthy of the pious finger wagging you do here - post after post after post - in stark contrast to your empty claim that christians don't wag their fingers at homosexuality while they ignore their own sins.
I do enjoy your tacit acceptance of your hypocrisy.

[East of Eden]

Well, I'm homosexual and often am left with similar questions. When i hear someone rant about how the sex act is evil/immoral/weird/disgusting, i'm just really confused because it seems like massive overreaction. When someone concedes that people are likely born gay but then finish with "but the sex act is still a choice of course", it's like they're desperately clinging to a way to condemn homosexuality still.

Yes, technically homosexual acts are a choice. So I should go thru life alone and suppress my feelings forever, and not so much as jerk off either? How many heteros never partake in premarital/extramarital sex or use birth control? The hypocrisy is staggering. I fail to see the big deal either. The sex act is so minor. Whether i act on those attractions, i like being gay because as you say, there's a lot more to it than that. I love guys and love being open about it. It feels amazing.

From a Christian perspective (which I realize you may not care about), those with same-sex feelings are in the same situation as a single heterosexual or a married man in a bad, sexless marriage, i.e. they aren't to act on those feelings. I'm not being a hypocrite here, when I married at 30 I was a virgin. My wife appreciates that.

It is always possible to do the will of God.

[Haven]

From a Christian perspective (which I realize you may not care about), those with same-sex feelings are in the same situation as a single heterosexual or a married man in a bad, sexless marriage, i.e. they aren't to act on those feelings. I'm not being a hypocrite here, when I married at 30 I was a virgin. My wife appreciates that.

It is always possible to do the will of God.

So gay people have to remain alone and miserable? Gay people are condemned them to a life of loneliness because . . . why? A collection of thousands-year-old, mostly anonymous, superstition-packed, multiply contradictory documents says so?

Under your own assumptions, how is that rational? If a creator god exists, he/she/it created gay people to be gay. Why would he/she/it then command them not to pursue the relationships that he/she/it designed them to want? It's absolutely absurd.

[East of Eden]

From a Christian perspective (which I realize you may not care about), those with same-sex feelings are in the same situation as a single heterosexual or a married man in a bad, sexless marriage, i.e. they aren't to act on those feelings. I'm not being a hypocrite here, when I married at 30 I was a virgin. My wife appreciates that.

It is always possible to do the will of God.

So gay people have to remain alone and miserable?

Was Jesus alone and miserable? I wasn't when I was single.

Gay people are condemned them to a life of loneliness because . . . why? A collection of thousands-year-old, mostly anonymous, superstition-packed, multiply contradictory documents says so?

I reject your caricature of the Bible.

Under your own assumptions, how is that rational? If a creator god exists, he/she/it created gay people to be gay.

He didn't create them gay, that happened in the fall, just as many other human negative pathologies.

Why would he/she/it then command them not to pursue the relationships that he/she/it designed them to want?

He didn't design them to want that, any more than He designed cancer or alcoholism.