Justified YEC?

[DanieltheDragon]

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Ok, lets presume for a moment that I do not know what the big bang evolution ice core dates etc are. In fact I have no knowledge of the age of the earth or how we got here. I know nothing in fact not of religion or science I am a blank slate. ______________________________________________________________________

Convince me that YEC exists and that it is real.

How would you convince me and what supporting evidence.
(you don't have to convince me god is real just that the earth is indeed 10,000 years or less)

[arian]

No, the fundamental difference came after the fall. It was the 'curse of God' that changed the very elements in the universe which allowed for decay and dying.

When you say elements here, are you talking about the elements of the periodic table, like Sodium, Chlorine, etc, or are you talking about the laws that govern the universe?

God changed the rules. Thorns on roses vs. thorns coming up in weeds under our feet where we now need shoes to walk.

Also, where is the evidence that the universe used to be any different?

Exactly, so try to explain this; Big-bang Evolution theory where they see the universe as a "quantum speck of gravity/string" or whatever?

What I'm saying is that the universe 'behaves' differently after the fall of Adam. So do we, where we have to have policing to try to keep it somewhat that we still feel deep in our soul as it used to be.

If there is no evidence that the universe used to be any different, why should I assume that the universe used to be different? Why should you, arian, assume that the universe used to be any different?

If the universe was as it was meant to be, why do I sweat on the sun here in Arizona picking them pesky thorny weeds from my yard? Why does the aSSociation fine me if I leave the thorny weeds in? If man evolved along with the weeds, why do we spend billions a year trying to get rid of them? Something tells me this is NOT how it was originally meant to be.

What do you and I have to lose by taking the logical and rational path, and saying "We can only go on what we know, and all that we know is that entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering are part of life in our universe, so until proven otherwise, we are going to assume that the universe has always worked this way."?

As I said, if entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering are part of life in our universe, why are we so desperately trying to change it? Why go to WAR against something that is "part of life in our universe" ??

Without the 'hints' in the Bible which I pointed out; (Cain's punishment, the obvious population of the earth at that time, that the earth was not 'filled' with people etc.), .. YES, there would be no physical evidence of the earth being 10,000 or trillions of years old. Time, age, death was introduced 'after the fall'.

The current evidence points to the universe winding down since the moment of the big bang. Theists ironically crow about this evidence supporting their beliefs, when in fact it throws a major monkey wrench into their beliefs.

I'm not a theist, so I can't speak on their behalf, but I do know that even in your BB Evolutionary view the story makes no logical sense.

Evolution and "winding down" is a contradiction. That's like 'killing someone back to life', .. or 'going to war with the sword for peace', or 'having intercourse for virginity', .. or, .. oh, I think you got the picture.

The universe is winding down.

"In thermodynamics, entropy (usual symbol S) is a measure of the number of specific ways in which a thermodynamic system may be arranged, commonly understood as a measure of disorder. According to the second law of thermodynamics the entropy of an isolated system never decreases; such systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the configuration with maximum entropy."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy

Yes, the universe IS winding down, but not because of the Big-bang Evolution fairytale, but because of Gods curse. The 'thermodynamic equilibrium' is that all things go back to the Creator, nothing is really lost or destroyed, only for us created it is.

The universe is supposedly an isolated system, especially if you ask a theist.

I'm not a theist, I believe in A, that is a singular Creator, not "one from the theistic gods".

So there it is the perfect car, sitting there all shiny and perfect just as you intended it to be.

In this context, what is perfect?

The way you meant it to be. Like after God was finished creating the universe, the world and man, .. he saw that it was good, it was all good, .. "perfect".

Now you create 'effect', another word; "negative effect" where the sun instead of making the car color shiny and beautiful, instead starts to destroy the finish. Then make the moisture start to rust the steel, .. then as with Adam's fall, bring thorns out from the ground where when the car goes by now can get a flat. The oil in the car starts to break down, the engine wears out and finally dies.

The stuff you described is a result of entropy. And entropy has been going on in the universe since the moment of the big bang.

But oh, let me guess, that evidence is false, is a Satanic deception, is not being understood correctly, is not being interpreted correctly, is not being conveyed correctly, etc

Entropy has been going on from the moment of the BB? Really? According to which religious guru/priest, .. is it George Lemaitre, Dawkins, Darwin, Steven Hawking's, .. who? If you can't accept 2-5,000 year written stories, how do you expect me to believe stories written recently to a few hundred years back of what they predict happened BILLIONS of years ago? Come on now, let's be real, let's be rational about these things!?

As I explained above, the same with Adam and Eve, and all the created beings, they will perform exactly for what they were created for.

What were Adam and Eve created for? What were "all the created beings" created for?

Created for an eternal life full of joy, adventure, mutual growth both in wisdom and number, you know, each one of us to be more like God. We were created in Gods image, the created to enjoy the Creator, our Father, our God.

We know that man didn't die.

According to the Bible people didn't die.

And according to the Evolution fairytale people, starting from single celled bacteria died so they could evolve. You know, no plan or purpose, just evolve by dying. The more death, the more they evolve, .. Please!?!

Currently, people do die. And until we find evidence that at some point in the past people didn't die, there is no reason for us to assume that at some point in the past people didn't die just because a book says so.

So until we find lizards turning into birds, monkeys turning into humans, lets just go by the evidence that humans are humans, lizards are lizards, birds are birds and monkeys are monkeys.

Humans die, .. but why is it that man seeks immortality? How can so much money be put into things like the Blue Brain Project and hundreds of other horrendous mutation projects, Frankenstein projects to hope to attain something they believe is just part of reality. It is what it is, .. so why so desperate in trying to change it?

Eve had children, so the babies had to grow, but far as I can tell they grew till their prime age (about 30) and stopped, and remained like that forever.

I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure that Adam and Eve did not have children until after they were banished from the Garden of Eden.

Yes, my logical interpretation of the Bible is somewhat different then the 'theistic' religious interpretations. Remember I am not a theist, and my God is 'I Am', not "one from" all them theistic gods living in the clouds, or in the supernatural realm where the Devil and his angels now reside.

Please read where Cain is punished by God, why would Cain be worried about anyone killing him after God cursed him? God put a seal on him so 'no one would kill Cain', why? Who would want to kill him, .. His grieving parents Adam and Eve? You think they would want to kill the only son they have left?
Where did he go, where did he find a wife?

Could the flowers have reached an adult age where they bore seeds which could be planted and remained like that forever also??

I'm not a botanist, so I am not really qualified answered to answer this question, but I will offer this: Unless there is evidence to support the idea that you proposed in the question above, there is no reason to assume that it used to be the way you proposed.

But you do accept the Big-bang Evolution proposition as to how life on earth came about, .. right?

We also know what God told Adam and Eve; "Be fruitful and multiply, .. and fill the earth." So I say: "What was God thinking?" I mean with no one dying, the earth would get filled really fast.

But looking up into space, there are trillions upon trillions of planets out there, so before decay, those must have been just ripe for human habitation. One colder, another warmer, one with two suns, another with 69 moons and so on. What about technology?
The technology we could achieve, .. Ah man, just looking at the last hundred years with humanity fighting against God, definitely it could only get better and better, I mean without all the fighting, death, sickness, rust, contamination, evil intention and all.
I can see traveling through space at speeds anywhere from a casual 'scenic drive' throughout the galaxies to 'instant'.

Instead of saying: "Hey honey, it's time to move into a bigger house, lets go house-hunting" we would say, .. "Hey honey, I'm taking the kids to check out the Andromeda galaxy for some potential planets to move to?"

Are you saying here that God created the universe to be able to accommodate Adam, Eve, and their descendants in case Adam, Eve, and trillions of their descendants somehow all managed to avoid falling to the temptation in the Garden of Eden?

Of course. Even that God 'knew' they would fall, God prepared the universe to accommodate them all as if they wouldn't fall. What if they fell a few billion solar years later then they did? (not that time was kept then, I'm just saying) We'd be already traveling throughout our nearby galaxies checking out planets to inhabit.

Ask yourself; "what causes accidents?"

Negligence, misinformation, ignorance, laziness, distraction, not to mention the hundreds of other things like hate, evil intentions from enemies, drug abuse, alcoholism, depression and so on.

What causes accidents? Human imperfection, the universe working the way it works (e.g. an earthquake), coincidence, animals, and all the stuff you mentioned above.

There was none of these imperfections in the Garden, nor in the universe before the fall. If you read, the animals were tame also, the lions ate grass, etc. When Jesus returns, for the next thousand years it will turn back to that lifestyle, after we clean up a bit. I don't know how much of the nearby planets will improve, but I do know that after the thousand years Satan will be released and those that still harbored hate against God but kept it in, kept it under control since Jesus will be the sole King of the Earth, and one God "I Am Who I Am", once the thousand years have ended they will run to Satan and once again turn on God and his Children for that 'final battle'.

Imagine where God watches us and His Holy Spirit there to guide our every step so we would not dash our feet against even a stone.

Why should I assume this was the case?

It seems awfully convenient that this was the case.

Why would God need to intervene to prevent someone from severing a femoral artery?

The whole reason that bleeding to death is possible is because our bodies cannot continue to function without blood. Our bodies also cannot continue to function without continued nourishment (food, water, etc). Let's say that I am 100% nourished and energized after I eat breakfast in the morning. Over the course of the day, my body uses its resources to keep the body running. The body uses some of its energy to move around. Some of this energy is lost to heat. Now, if I don't replenish my body's resources over the course of the day, I won't be able to continue to function at an optimum level.

Take someone and start depriving them of water and food. Eventually, they will die because their body's resources keep getting whittled down. Without resources, the body's systems cannot function.

This is the way the universe works. Until you and/or other people present evidence that the universe used to work differently, there is no reason to assume that it used to work differently.

Very well put, thank you my friend.

We have doctors and scientists working on finding cures for disease. If the doctor says; "Oh, you are dizzy because you are dehydrated. Get a nice big cup of cold water, and keep yourself hydrated, you will be just fine" he is not explaining to the patient that "this is how the universe works, accept it and die". Matter of fact people wouldn't even go to the doctor, there would be no doctors because everyone would just accept things as they are.

But because we recognize that there is a problem, and come up with a solution, is proof that this is NOT what it supposed to be. If "the problem IS how the universe works", why 'solve it'? Don't you see what I'm saying here? Now imagine no pollution, no water shortage, no thorns growing where it is not supposed to grow, no food shortage, the rains come as they supposed to, no weeds to choke the crop, no disease, no pests to attack the crop, no lies spread causing rebellion, hate, jealousy between people, what would we have?

Again, why are we seeking solution if things are as they are supposed to be? THIS is the proof that somehow we humans KNOW this is not normal. That this is NOT what it should be, or meant to be.

We all looking out for each other, one mind, one goal, .. which is to have fun and enjoy an eternity with the help of our Creator.

Are you talking about Earth or Heaven here?

If it's Earth, this cannot be correct, because eternity on Earth is conditional, not necessary.

My friend, the Angels in Heaven envied what Adam and Eve had before the fall. We have lost the imagination of what it could be like if Adam didn't fall. We are little creators like our Dad, the earth and the Garden was just our starting point, and from there we had eternity and infinity to grow in. Angels were created as Angels, but man was created to multiply. To dream and express those dreams by creating, better, newer, different or the same, as many and as few as we wished. If you created something new and interesting, I would enjoy it too, and visa versa

Open your mind, it is the only thing left that is still eternal and infinite. Don't limit it, or let religion limit your future. We screwed up, but God has provided a way back, take it.

Why can't we see God? You tell me? I see Him. Sure I have my doubts sometimes, but it's not about God, but about me.

You literally see a physical manifestation of him?

Only in the mirror, but my/your mind is all Him. Only it is within a body, so that we may be individuals, otherwise we would be God, that is 'without this body' my, yours, all our mind is God. This is what's amazing, and what a privilege over all other creations. This is what got Satan all jealous and envious of, that we were created in the 'likeness of God Himself'. So he said: "Oh yea, I too shall be 'like God', and rule over Gods children!" Silly Satan, he was the most beautiful of all Gods creation, yet he gave it all up to try to poses what we had.

Now he works on making man believe his lies, that we are not even human, but evolving monkeys. If he can't become a God, then sure as there is a hell he will try to take that away from us too. It is vengeance against God, because he knows his final doom is at hand.

I can't wait to be out of here and to continue where we left off

Amen. I can't wait to be out of here either. I am tired of existing.

You are tired of our present condition, not existing. If you just knew the hope we were robbed of, the infinite eternal potential for growth, joy and happiness, you would make a stand against evil, against all them lies. I have know nothing but pain and suffering from the day I was born. So if anyone is tired of our present existing condition, I would be one for sure, but I try to look at our present existence from outside of the box, not from religiously defined closed boxed (minded) view.

Just imagine a brand New Heaven and a brand New Earth as a starting point, and then on to create an eternity of fun as God originally meant it to be.

Why create a new Heaven and New Earth? What's wrong with the current ones?

Once something perfect was contaminated, God is no longer pleased with it, and being a perfectionist, He likes to start afresh. I am like that too, and maybe you too, no? We imagine a project, or a work of art, and if it's not the way we imagined it, we scrap it and start new. That is if I have the time and money to start new. Under these cursed conditions it's hard to start new, and often have to settle for refurbished. God doesn't have these limitations, He is very rich, and has all the time of Eternity.

I know, I know, .. 'prove that God exists', or; 'what if another speck of quantum whatever Big-bang in the nothing we are expanding in and within seconds explode/expand into us increasing our expansion rate to 186,283 miles per second which would make our time stop and we become a great ball of 'nothing' sucking all the other universes (bubble in bubble) into one giant black hole!?

Right?
Or questions faximility thereof?

O...k?

Just sayin'

[Danmark]

God changed the rules. Thorns on roses vs. thorns coming up in weeds under our feet where we now need shoes to walk.

What I'm saying is that the universe 'behaves' differently after the fall of Adam. So do we, where we have to have policing to try to keep it somewhat that we still feel deep in our soul as it used to be.


If the universe was as it was meant to be, why do I sweat on the sun here in Arizona picking them pesky thorny weeds from my yard? Why does the aSSociation fine me if I leave the thorny weeds in? If man evolved along with the weeds, why do we spend billions a year trying to get rid of them? Something tells me this is NOT how it was originally meant to be.

I'm not a theist, so I can't speak on their behalf, but I do know that even in your BB Evolutionary view the story makes no logical sense.

Evolution and "winding down" is a contradiction. That's like 'killing someone back to life', .. or 'going to war with the sword for peace', or 'having intercourse for virginity', .. or, .. oh, I think you got the picture.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm having a hard time reconciling your "I'm not a theist" with "God changed the rules" and other statements you've made that suppose there is some overall purpose behind the evolution of plants and animals.

We try to get rid of thorns because they do not suit some human purpose. This has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Evolutionary processes have nothing to do with some overall plan from the point of view of either an imaginary 'god' or man. Evolution is not conscious. Individual species adapt and survive without any purpose. If a plant has thorns, it is only because that is one of its attributes that either proved to give it an advantage for survival, or at least did not sufficiently compromise its ability to survive.*


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*Organisms may have a variety of inherited traits that are not necessarily essential for their survival, but are either linked genetically to other characteristics or are simply incidental.

[agnosticatheist]

Exactly, so try to explain this; Big-bang Evolution theory where they see the universe as a "quantum speck of gravity/string" or whatever?

What?

What I'm saying is that the universe 'behaves' differently after the fall of Adam. So do we, where we have to have policing to try to keep it somewhat that we still feel deep in our soul as it used to be.

The evidence points to entropy being in play in the universe since the moment the universe came into existence. From what I understand, the only way that the evidence could exist is if the universe has been working the same way all throughout the history of time, or some supernatural/metaphysical/transcendent entity modified the evidence and made it look like the universe has been winding down since the beginning when in fact it's only been winding down since the fall.

If there is no evidence that the universe used to be any different, why should I assume that the universe used to be different? Why should you, arian, assume that the universe used to be any different?

If the universe was as it was meant to be, why do I sweat on the sun here in Arizona picking them pesky thorny weeds from my yard? Why does the aSSociation fine me if I leave the thorny weeds in? If man evolved along with the weeds, why do we spend billions a year trying to get rid of them? Something tells me this is NOT how it was originally meant to be.

You didn't answer my question.

Your idea of what the universe is *supposed to be like* is based on your values. If you liked thorny weeds and/or you didn't care if you were fined, you might keep the thorny weeds in your yard. But you don't because you don't like thorny weeds and/or you don't want to get fined.

You seem to be assuming that you have the values that you do because the Christian god gave them to you. How do you know that He did?

What do you and I have to lose by taking the logical and rational path, and saying "We can only go on what we know, and all that we know is that entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering are part of life in our universe, so until proven otherwise, we are going to assume that the universe has always worked this way."?

As I said, if entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering are part of life in our universe, why are we so desperately trying to change it? Why go to WAR against something that is "part of life in our universe" ??

Because we are goal-oriented organisms, and we assign negative value to entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering.

I'm not a theist, so I can't speak on their behalf, but I do know that even in your BB Evolutionary view the story makes no logical sense.

Which story? The Bible? Or the Big Bang theory and Theory of Evolution?

Evolution and "winding down" is a contradiction. That's like 'killing someone back to life', .. or 'going to war with the sword for peace', or 'having intercourse for virginity', .. or, .. oh, I think you got the picture.

First, what winding down means in the context of the universe and entropy, is that the universe is apparently running out of energy. One day, perhaps billions of years into the future, all the energy in the universe will run out, and the universe as we know it will no longer exist. No stars, no galaxies, etc. There will be total darkness.

Evolution is change. It is not a progression towards a pinnacle/end goal. It is an ongoing process.

Yes, the universe IS winding down, but not because of the Big-bang Evolution fairytale, but because of Gods curse.

The evidence says the universe has been winding down since the beginning of the universe. It didn't start winding down 6,000 to 10,000 years ago.

The 'thermodynamic equilibrium' is that all things go back to the Creator, nothing is really lost or destroyed, only for us created it is.

Could you explain what you were trying to say here?

I'm not a theist, I believe in A, that is a singular Creator, not "one from the theistic gods".

If you believe in a personal god, you are a theist. If you believe in a god that has a separate, individual, unique, conscious, aware, and self-aware mind, then you are a theist.

The way you meant it to be. Like after God was finished creating the universe, the world and man, .. he saw that it was good, it was all good, .. "perfect".

What if God had meant for the universe to be a really messed up place? Would it still be "perfect" then?

If you can't accept 2-5,000 year written stories, how do you expect me to believe stories written recently to a few hundred years back of what they predict happened BILLIONS of years ago? Come on now, let's be real, let's be rational about these things!?

I can accept 2-5,000 year old stories. I used to be a Christian. I'm still on the borderline between atheist and theist.

Investigation using science and reason is a more reasonable course of action than assuming that 2-5,000 year old stories are necessarily true.

The scientists are predicting what happened billions of years ago based on evidence and reason.

They are using what is called inductive reasoning.

It's a process similar to the process used by police detectives when they attempt to solve a case.

If someone breaks into your house and no one was present, and there were no video cameras recording the incident, the only way that the police can attempt to figure out who broke into the house is by looking at the evidence, and considering how the universe works. This is the type of reasoning that Sherlock Holmes used to solve cases. Regarding Sherlock Holmes, it's often incorrectly referred to as deductive reasoning.

They might find a wallet there with identification in it that belongs to a Mr. Joe Delta. They might also find other evidence on your property that indicates that Mr. Joe Delta broke into your house.

Based on the evidence, they can look into the past and then infer that Mr. Joe Delta was the person who broke into your house.

But, applying your objection to scientific investigation and inferences concerning the age of the universe, the life of the universe, etc, to your house, the police cannot infer from the evidence that Mr. Joe Delta broke into your house.

Created for an eternal life full of joy, adventure, mutual growth both in wisdom and number, you know, each one of us to be more like God. We were created in Gods image

Eternal life here on earth, or in Heaven?

the created to enjoy the Creator, our Father, our God.

What does this mean? Specifics and details, please.

And according to the Evolution fairytale people, starting from single celled bacteria died so they could evolve. You know, no plan or purpose, just evolve by dying. The more death, the more they evolve, .. Please!?!

Uhhhh............Not exactly.

Death is part of the process. But the current theory of evolution does not claim that more death leads to more evolution.

As far as we can currently tell, there is no purpose other than to allow living organisms to continue to survive on a constantly changing planet.

If there isn't variation and change, eventually all the original life, however it got here, would die off because of constant environmental changes.

If your body's setup facilitates your survival in a given environment, then you have a higher chance of surviving at least long enough to produce an adequate number of healthy offspring, who then grow up and produce their own offspring, and so on and so forth.

If your body's setup does not facilitate your survival in a given environment, then you have a lower chance of surviving at least long enough to produce an adequate number of healthy offspring, who then grow up and produce their own offspring, and so on and so forth.

So until we find lizards turning into birds, monkeys turning into humans, lets just go by the evidence that humans are humans, lizards are lizards, birds are birds and monkeys are monkeys.

It's a lot more subtle than that.

Macroevolution is probably never going to be observed unless we figure out how to time travel and/or live for billions of years.

Humans die, .. but why is it that man seeks immortality? How can so much money be put into things like the Blue Brain Project and hundreds of other horrendous mutation projects, Frankenstein projects to hope to attain something they believe is just part of reality. It is what it is, .. so why so desperate in trying to change it?

As I said earlier in this post, we are goal-oriented organisms, and mortality is not an idea that many people value.

We value immortality, and so we go about trying to attain it, or at least life going on indefinitely until we get bored and/or weary of it, at which point we can remove whatever is preventing us from being mortal and let nature take its course (disease, aging, etc), and then ride off into the sunset peacefully.

Yes, my logical interpretation of the Bible is somewhat different then the 'theistic' religious interpretations. Remember I am not a theist, and my God is 'I Am', not "one from" all them theistic gods living in the clouds, or in the supernatural realm where the Devil and his angels now reside.

Do you call yourself a Christian? Or, perhaps, a follower of Jesus (foJ)?

Please read where Cain is punished by God, why would Cain be worried about anyone killing him after God cursed him? God put a seal on him so 'no one would kill Cain', why? Who would want to kill him, .. His grieving parents Adam and Eve? You think they would want to kill the only son they have left?
Where did he go, where did he find a wife?

Perhaps there were other gardens that the Bible does not mention?

But you do accept the Big-bang Evolution proposition as to how life on earth came about, .. right?

First, Big bang theory and theory of evolution are separate theories.

Second, neither theory makes any claims concerning how life on earth came about. That theory would be Abiogenesis. Although, it's not really a theory at this point, it's more just a general idea that posits that life could have arisen from inorganic matter via natural processes. There are a lot of sub-ideas/theories that fall under the Abiogenesis "umbrella" and are in development.

Of course. Even that God 'knew' they would fall, God prepared the universe to accommodate them all as if they wouldn't fall. What if they fell a few billion solar years later then they did? (not that time was kept then, I'm just saying) We'd be already traveling throughout our nearby galaxies checking out planets to inhabit.

This seems rational enough on the surface, but what if we went so long without falling that the universe started to get crowded? Any finite universe and immortal organisms capable of reproduction has the potential to one day be packed to capacity. The only way to get around this would be to create an infinite universe with regards to size.

There was none of these imperfections in the Garden, nor in the universe before the fall. If you read, the animals were tame also, the lions ate grass, etc.

According to the Bible that was the case.

But that does not match up with reality.

Reality is different from what the Bible claims reality used to be.

Why should I assume that the Bible's claim regarding this issue is necessarily true?

Also, how could lions eat grass before the fall? They are not structured to be vegetarians. If any entity did design them, they designed them to be carnivorous killing machines.

If we were to look at lion DNA and find evidence of their bodies once being set up to be vegetarians, this would support your claim and the Bible's claim. But, if we don't find this evidence, we have no reason to assume that they used to be vegetarians.

Scientific evidence holds more weight than a book. Now, if the evidence supports the book's claims, then I think it is ok to assume that the book's claims are true.

When Jesus returns, for the next thousand years it will turn back to that lifestyle, after we clean up a bit. I don't know how much of the nearby planets will improve, but I do know that after the thousand years Satan will be released and those that still harbored hate against God but kept it in, kept it under control since Jesus will be the sole King of the Earth, and one God "I Am Who I Am", once the thousand years have ended they will run to Satan and once again turn on God and his Children for that 'final battle'.

I have a few questions about this paragraph, but they are beyond the scope of this topic, so I'm going to start a new topic and post my questions there.

But because we recognize that there is a problem, and come up with a solution, is proof that this is NOT what it supposed to be.

Not exactly.

It's proof that humans are not ok with the way the universe works. It is not proof that the universe is supposed to be different than it is.

If "the problem IS how the universe works", why 'solve it'?

Because humans are not ok with the way the universe works, and humans are problem solvers.

Don't you see what I'm saying here? Now imagine no pollution, no water shortage, no thorns growing where it is not supposed to grow, no food shortage, the rains come as they supposed to, no weeds to choke the crop, no disease, no pests to attack the crop, no lies spread causing rebellion, hate, jealousy between people, what would we have?

Nothing?

Kidding aside, what would a universe without all that look like? How is it possible to not have any of that?

A lot of that stuff is only a problem to humans because they assign negative values to that stuff.

Why is pollution seen as a problem? Because humans assign a negative value to pollution.

Again, why are we seeking solution if things are as they are supposed to be? THIS is the proof that somehow we humans KNOW this is not normal. That this is NOT what it should be, or meant to be.

No, it is not proof that humans know that this is not what it should be. It is proof that humans are problem solvers, and that pollution, disease, etc are seen as a problem (and the reason that they are seen as a problem is because humans assign a negative value to them).

My friend, the Angels in Heaven envied what Adam and Eve had before the fall. We have lost the imagination of what it could be like if Adam didn't fall. We are little creators like our Dad, the earth and the Garden was just our starting point, and from there we had eternity and infinity to grow in. Angels were created as Angels, but man was created to multiply. To dream and express those dreams by creating, better, newer, different or the same, as many and as few as we wished. If you created something new and interesting, I would enjoy it too, and visa versa

We could have eternity on Earth, but not necessarily because of the test in the garden of Eden. As long as humanity did not break the rule, eternity would be possible. But as soon as the rule was broken, eternity on earth was no longer possible.

Only in the mirror, but my/your mind is all Him. Only it is within a body, so that we may be individuals, otherwise we would be God, that is 'without this body' my, yours, all our mind is God.

Are you a panentheist? (Note: That's panentheist, not pantheist)

This is what's amazing, and what a privilege over all other creations. This is what got Satan all jealous and envious of, that we were created in the 'likeness of God Himself'.

Why would God intentionally create a scenario where this type of problem could develop?

Why not just create humans and rocks?

Why humans, angels, crocodiles, etc?

So he said: "Oh yea, I too shall be 'like God', and rule over Gods children!" Silly Satan, he was the most beautiful of all Gods creation, yet he gave it all up to try to poses what we had.

Wait...Which party did he try to be like?

God or humanity? Or both?

Now he works on making man believe his lies

And how exactly does he go about that?

that we are not even human, but evolving monkeys.

We are part of the family known as the Great Apes. We are evolving Great Apes, not monkeys.

If he can't become a God, then sure as there is a hell he will try to take that away from us too. It is vengeance against God, because he knows his final doom is at hand.

Why would he be mad at God?

You are tired of our present condition, not existing. If you just knew the hope we were robbed of, the infinite eternal potential for growth, joy and happiness, you would make a stand against evil, against all them lies.[/quote]

If there is such a reality as evil, and I do find the Jesus story to be true, believe me my friend, I will make a stand against evil, even if it costs me my very life.

If the End Times in the Bible come true, and the NWO starts beheading FOJs (Followers of Jesus) in execution centers, my blood will be spilled in one of them.

I'm not making fun of you here. I'm serious. I've seen enough to make me consider that the Bible's claims concerning the End Times might be true, I'm just not convinced they are true.

I'm on the outside looking in. Yall have to convince me.

I have know nothing but pain and suffering from the day I was born. So if anyone is tired of our present existing condition, I would be one for sure, but I try to look at our present existence from outside of the box, not from religiously defined closed boxed (minded) view.

I am sorry to hear you have suffered

Once something perfect was contaminated, God is no longer pleased with it, and being a perfectionist, He likes to start afresh. I am like that too, and maybe you too, no? We imagine a project, or a work of art, and if it's not the way we imagined it, we scrap it and start new. That is if I have the time and money to start new. Under these cursed conditions it's hard to start new, and often have to settle for refurbished. God doesn't have these limitations, He is very rich, and has all the time of Eternity.

If he is going to start over eventually, why not start over immediately rather than thousands, if not millions, heck even billions, of years later?

Why didn't he start over right after Adam and Eve sinned?

I know, I know, .. 'prove that God exists', or; 'what if another speck of quantum whatever Big-bang in the nothing we are expanding in and within seconds explode/expand into us increasing our expansion rate to 186,283 miles per second which would make our time stop and we become a great ball of 'nothing' sucking all the other universes (bubble in bubble) into one giant black hole!?

Right?
Or questions faximility thereof?

Why should I assume that God exists?

Give me one reason why I should assume that he exists.

[arian]

God changed the rules. Thorns on roses vs. thorns coming up in weeds under our feet where we now need shoes to walk.

What I'm saying is that the universe 'behaves' differently after the fall of Adam. So do we, where we have to have policing to try to keep it somewhat that we still feel deep in our soul as it used to be.


If the universe was as it was meant to be, why do I sweat on the sun here in Arizona picking them pesky thorny weeds from my yard? Why does the aSSociation fine me if I leave the thorny weeds in? If man evolved along with the weeds, why do we spend billions a year trying to get rid of them? Something tells me this is NOT how it was originally meant to be.

I'm not a theist, so I can't speak on their behalf, but I do know that even in your BB Evolutionary view the story makes no logical sense.

Evolution and "winding down" is a contradiction. That's like 'killing someone back to life', .. or 'going to war with the sword for peace', or 'having intercourse for virginity', .. or, .. oh, I think you got the picture.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm having a hard time reconciling your "I'm not a theist" with "God changed the rules" and other statements you've made that suppose there is some overall purpose behind the evolution of plants and animals.

We go round and round about theism and their created gods vs. God our Creator. But I understand, it IS hard to leave religious indoctrinations.

And if you don't see a purpose behind plants and animals, it would be futile to discuss this further with you.

We try to get rid of thorns because they do not suit some human purpose.

How is that possible for something not to suit the human animals purpose? If the thorns evolved on the ground with the human animal, then that's where it belongs. You will step on it and bleed until you evolve leather boots.
Did your mouth evolve, or did someone plan on making one for you, you know, so you could eat fruit?
If you live where poisonous fruit is plenty, you eat a poisonous fruit until your body adepts to that poisonous fruit. It's not like you will tell your kids not to eat something Mother Nature worked hard for millions of years to produce, right?
It is what it is, we are what we are, right? If a family dies eating poisonous fruit, then that is Mother Natures way of extinction, until she figures out a way to evolve it better and safer.

This has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Evolutionary processes have nothing to do with some overall plan from the point of view of either an imaginary 'god' or man. Evolution is not conscious. Individual species adapt and survive without any purpose.

Exactly! If thorns, then evolve boots. If poisoned fruit (whatever 'poison' would mean in evolutionary terms?) then the animal either adepts real fast like, or dies and goes extinct.
There is NO purpose, so it's not like we will warn others: "Don't touch that fruit, it's poisonous!" right? That would be silly. How would the human animal adept to all those things if he kept avoiding evolution?

If a plant has thorns, it is only because that is one of its attributes that either proved to give it an advantage for survival, or at least did not sufficiently compromise its ability to survive.*

Okey dokey then, one grows thorns to survive and the other velvety-like delicate stem.
The caterpillar evolves velvet furry coat, while the alligator living in the river just under the little velvety caterpillar evolves thick impenetrable skin to survive, .. it's all for advantage. All for survival, correct?

I'll get this evolution theory down sooner or later, I just have to remember that "It Is What It Is", .. no plan, just survival by adapting to their environment like the caterpillar on the branch, and the alligator right below it.

______________________
*Organisms may have a variety of inherited traits that are not necessarily essential for their survival, but are either linked genetically to other characteristics or are simply incidental.

But of course, no plan just genetic linking, adapting, changing and overall 'improving' till we have the beautiful earth with millions of plants, trees and life forms living in the same exact area, one with fluffy soft coat, and the other with impenetrable armor, all evolving to survive their environment. After billions and billions of years, we look and there they are, all from a single celled bacteria.

And then, we have the scientific explanation, which takes joy in examining the actual world around them; "the caterpillar changes into a butterfly, the alligator survives eating the slow wildebeest when they cross the river for greener pastures. The roses have thorns, and tulips don't. No billion year old stories, just the observable facts.

[Danmark]

How is that possible for something not to suit the human animals purpose? If the thorns evolved on the ground with the human animal, then that's where it belongs. You will step on it and bleed until you evolve leather boots.
Did your mouth evolve, or did someone plan on making one for you, you know, so you could eat fruit?

Arian, you make so many factual and logical errors in this post that it is difficult to know how torespond. I'll try, however, by limiting my response to this short section of yours.

Your first sentence shows an assumption that everything evolves for the purpose of the human animal. It does not, and you can not demonstrate it does. That was the very purpose for using thorns as an example. Mosquitoes, the discomfort and disease they spread does not suit any human purpose. There is no purpose in the bacteria that evolved to produce tuberculosis and leprosy that benefits humans. These organisms evolved with no purpose whatsoever. Human comfort or benefit is irrelevant to the survival of organisms. They simply survive or they do not.

Leather boots do not 'evolve.' Humans make them to suit a human purpose. There is no comparison between making a boot and the evolution of an organism.

All plants and animals have a way of gathering nutrients. Most animals evolved in such a way that they have various structures which are either mouths or analogous to mouths.

[arian]

Exactly, so try to explain this; Big-bang Evolution theory where they see the universe as a "quantum speck of gravity/string" or whatever?

What?

Thank you agnosticatheist, man, we have a book on our hand.

What I meant was that; 'if you see a tree, or car, or mountain, or the universe, what do you see?'
When you look at the car, do you see a bolt evolving over billions and billions of years? How about a tree? or an elephant, do you see a single celled bacteria evolving over 4 billion years?

What I'm saying is that the universe 'behaves' differently after the fall of Adam. So do we, where we have to have policing to try to keep it somewhat that we still feel deep in our soul as it used to be.

The evidence points to entropy being in play in the universe since the moment the universe came into existence.

What evidence my friend? Has anyone witnessed a Big bang and right after noticed entropy in play?? No, they observe the universe TODAY and as it IS today, and it is decaying. If it was decaying from the BB, it would not be here. The earth is the last of the habitable planets because God still keeps it surrounded by protection, otherwise in a hundred years we would be no different then Mars, or the other close by planets.

From what I understand, the only way that the evidence could exist is if the universe has been working the same way all throughout the history of time, or some supernatural/metaphysical/transcendent entity modified the evidence and made it look like the universe has been winding down since the beginning when in fact it's only been winding down since the fall.

This is what I mean, unless we had scientists observing and recording their observation of the earth 'before the fall', or right at the BB, there is no way to tell when the aging/decay started.

I know one thing as fact, that time is not real. If time was real, everything would follow the exact time. If we lived for a hundred years, then everyone would die exactly when they turned a hundred years old. This goes for trees, plants animals, .. everything. The winter would come exactly on time, and every season after that, .. all ON TIME. Then you could say that 'time is real'.

All that is real is decay and death, and time has absolutely no effect on this. One dies now, and the other later. Winter could come weeks sooner or weeks later.

If there is no evidence that the universe used to be any different, why should I assume that the universe used to be different? Why should you, arian, assume that the universe used to be any different?

If the universe was as it was meant to be, why do I sweat on the sun here in Arizona picking them pesky thorny weeds from my yard? Why does the aSSociation fine me if I leave the thorny weeds in? If man evolved along with the weeds, why do we spend billions a year trying to get rid of them? Something tells me this is NOT how it was originally meant to be.

You didn't answer my question.

Your idea of what the universe is *supposed to be like* is based on your values. If you liked thorny weeds and/or you didn't care if you were fined, you might keep the thorny weeds in your yard. But you don't because you don't like thorny weeds and/or you don't want to get fined.

But that's just it, the feeling is mutual; no one likes thorny weeds, and they know that the only reason I would leave the thorny weeds in is because I was too lazy to take them out. Now who complains about the thorns on roses? To me, a rose wouldn't be a rose without the thorns. (I'm just saying, who knows by now they may have GMO thorn less roses?)

Now you could say: "I like walking on thorny weeds, my kids don't mind playing on them either. I raised them as Evolutionists and they accept thorns as part of what it IS, just part of evolution.

You seem to be assuming that you have the values that you do because the Christian god gave them to you. How do you know that He did?

I look at nature with a scientific mind, then read all kinds of books, asked every stupid question I could come up with on Forums, then read the Bible and put it all together, and what I say makes sense. It is logical, and it is what I see and observe NOW. I never witnessed evolution, and as far as I'm concerned, neither did anyone. Observing generations of diseased gnats until one group stops reproducing is NOT evolution. They are sick, not evolved. I don't like to have sex when I'm sick either, it doesn't mean I am evolving to some Post Human state.

What do you and I have to lose by taking the logical and rational path, and saying "We can only go on what we know, and all that we know is that entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering are part of life in our universe, so until proven otherwise, we are going to assume that the universe has always worked this way."?

As I said, if entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering are part of life in our universe, why are we so desperately trying to change it? Why go to WAR against something that is "part of life in our universe" ??

Because we are goal-oriented organisms, and we assign negative value to entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering.

Oh come on my friend, you know that is not a logical answer considering your Evolution rules. You are an evolving animal, and evolution has no plan of ANYONE, no goals, not natures, not Gods and NOT mans. Evolution doesn't have 'negative values', extinction, entropy, mutation, chaos, chance is all part of evolution, remember? Unless you are admitting that you feel deep down that; entropy, decay, death, imperfection, and suffering somehow just doesn't belong. Some feeling that has been left over from before the fall and you resent what came after?

I'm not a theist, so I can't speak on their behalf, but I do know that even in your BB Evolutionary view the story makes no logical sense.

Which story? The Bible? Or the Big Bang theory and Theory of Evolution?

The Big bang Evolution story, it fails from the get-go. You try to reduce the observable universe down to a quantum speck of "We don't know" that is expanding in "you shouldn't ask", or "nothing", expanding space for itself to expand in, creating an illusion of time.

Evolution and "winding down" is a contradiction. That's like 'killing someone back to life', .. or 'going to war with the sword for peace', or 'having intercourse for virginity', .. or, .. oh, I think you got the picture.

First, what winding down means in the context of the universe and entropy, is that the universe is apparently running out of energy. One day, perhaps billions of years into the future, all the energy in the universe will run out, and the universe as we know it will no longer exist. No stars, no galaxies, etc. There will be total darkness.

Evolution is change. It is not a progression towards a pinnacle/end goal. It is an ongoing process.

I thought you cannot destroy energy?
If evolution is 'change', and entropy was present right at your BB, then what are we looking at? Nothing and darkness? Or did the universe entropied into what we observe today? That would be worse then the universe coming from nothing, and 'evolving' by chance through chaos, no plan, no dice, just an illusionary time before time existed.
Come on my friend be realistic, more science and less fictional fantasy.

Yes, the universe IS winding down, but not because of the Big-bang Evolution fairytale, but because of Gods curse.

The evidence says the universe has been winding down since the beginning of the universe. It didn't start winding down 6,000 to 10,000 years ago.

As I explained above, that would be impossible. Unless you are thinking of another universe with completely different rules? But not from what I can see, since I and everyone including Evolutionists agree the earth and all the life here is beautiful. What would 'beautiful mean unless you can recognize and differentiate it from chaotic nonsense engulfed in darkness and pain?

The 'thermodynamic equilibrium' is that all things go back to the Creator, nothing is really lost or destroyed, only for us created it is.

Could you explain what you were trying to say here?

This goes back to the mind, and how God being an Eternal Creative Mind who can create the universe and then with a change of His mind destroy it in a way as He pleases, and create a completely different and newer one.

When we think of a concept then change our mind, what do we loose?
But since we are the created, and being part of the universe this destruction is a loss, only for us and not for God.

I'm not a theist, I believe in A, that is a singular Creator, not "one from the theistic gods".

If you believe in a personal god, you are a theist. If you believe in a god that has a separate, individual, unique, conscious, aware, and self-aware mind, then you are a theist.

By the worlds religiously influenced definition, but not in reality. This goes back to the created and the Creator. The brain and the mind. Finite and infinite, keeping time and eternal without time, where time doesn't even make sense. Heck, even now time doesn't make sense. If I have a slow clock and you have a fast one where one solar day is 72 hours, what is time?

The way you meant it to be. Like after God was finished creating the universe, the world and man, .. he saw that it was good, it was all good, .. "perfect".

What if God had meant for the universe to be a really messed up place? Would it still be "perfect" then?

God gave us His senses, what He believes is good, we believe is good. Does that answer your question?

If you can't accept 2-5,000 year written stories, how do you expect me to believe stories written recently to a few hundred years back of what they predict happened BILLIONS of years ago? Come on now, let's be real, let's be rational about these things!?

I can accept 2-5,000 year old stories. I used to be a Christian. I'm still on the borderline between atheist and theist.

Investigation using science and reason is a more reasonable course of action than assuming that 2-5,000 year old stories are necessarily true.

The scientists are predicting what happened billions of years ago based on evidence and reason.

Why predict if they have evidence? Evidence has to be witnessed and can be recreated.

If I told you that this car evolved from a bolt which came about by waiting, or time out of some primordial gas, would you accept that as evidence? I would even swear it did, but would that be evidence?

They are using what is called inductive reasoning.

It's a process similar to the process used by police detectives when they attempt to solve a case.

If someone breaks into your house and no one was present, and there were no video cameras recording the incident, the only way that the police can attempt to figure out who broke into the house is by looking at the evidence, and considering how the universe works. This is the type of reasoning that Sherlock Holmes used to solve cases. Regarding Sherlock Holmes, it's often incorrectly referred to as deductive reasoning.

They might find a wallet there with identification in it that belongs to a Mr. Joe Delta. They might also find other evidence on your property that indicates that Mr. Joe Delta broke into your house.

Based on the evidence, they can look into the past and then infer that Mr. Joe Delta was the person who broke into your house.

But, applying your objection to scientific investigation and inferences concerning the age of the universe, the life of the universe, etc, to your house, the police cannot infer from the evidence that Mr. Joe Delta broke into your house.

Yes, I understand 'inductive reasoning', and the BB Evolution story is NOT inductive reasoning.

Your story is more like digging up what you would claim to be a 5 million year old skull and naming it Mr. Joe Delta, then finding a piece of petrified two by four and assuming it was a house. Then noticing some piece of a rusted watch a little ways from the skull of your Mr. Joe Delta and assuming he robbed the dinosaur who lived at the hose since you found a fossil of one within the vicinity of the petrified two by four.
But even this would be far more believable then stories you guys make up from cave paintings, fossils found in different parts of the world, or the fossilized jaw of a pig claimed to be the missing link. Or, .. looking at pictures of the universe taken with colored lenses and claiming you are looking at the very few seconds after the Big whoosh, or that 13.75 billion year old silent inflation into nothing as if it was happening right there and then, .. 13.75 billion years ago. LOL.

"Gentlemen, we are witnessing the Big bang, we are actually observing back 13.75 billion years as the universe is coming into being. As you can see gentlemen, there is no time yet and very little space. You see that black hole, yep, that could be other universes popping into existence in nothing.

I hope to finish the other half tomorrow. God bless you my friend.

[Danmark]

What I meant was that; 'if you see a tree, or car, or mountain, or the universe, what do you see?'
When you look at the car, do you see a bolt evolving over billions and billions of years?

Arian, you keep making statements that have no relevance to evolution. Mountains and bolts do not evolve. Evolutionary processes only take place with living organisms that reproduce genetically. Your repeated insistence on comparing evolutionary changes in living organisms with "bolts evolving into cars" demonstrates you do not have even the vaguest understanding of the process you are denying. If you are going to argue against something, it would help your argument if you first demonstrated you knew even a little about the process you are denying.

[Danmark]

This is what I mean, unless we had scientists observing and recording their observation of the earth 'before the fall', or right at the BB, there is no way to tell when the aging/decay started.

Arian, this is yet another of your absurd statements that demonstrates you have insufficient knowledge of the scientific process. We understand many natural processes without having eye witnesses to the events. We can tell the age of trees hundreds and even thousands of years old by counting tree rings. It is not necessary to have had a person present when the seed first germinated and have that same person stand around and record the growth of the tree every year for a thousand years. By your logic, a tree could not be more than 70 years old, or at most, older than the oldest living human.

We have many other methods for dating the age of various substances, but I won't go into that, because you have had that explained to you before and you simply reject the claims made by all the experts in the field. But in case you do insist on arguging against these methods, you can start by attempting to refute the methods described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth

[Inigo Montoya]

Arian,

A quick sidetrack, if you would.


You say you're not a theist, but you appeal to a creator God. So I think to myself perhaps you're a deist, but then you reference the fall of man and Adam...

Can you take just a few sentences without wandering too badly to share what it is, exactly, you believe the nature of the creator God you keep referencing is?

[DanieltheDragon]

I think he just doesn't want the theist label. As if it somehow legitimizes his position

it is not unlike me claiming I am not an atheist yet I don't believe in gods.