Salvation from what?

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

[bluethread]

I live my life for others as much as for myself. I do my best for my wife, children, relatives, friends and strangers not just for today(because it makes me feel good) but for when I'd dead and gone. The good I do in this world will outlive me and that's all I need to know.

That is a Taoist view, which is fine. There are two things that do not work for me in that. The first is the belief that one's works carry on into the future. If one studies history, one notices that the significance of an individual, even a powerful one is very small. Also, if one has looked at heredity, one notices that future generations rarely carry on a significant legacy. Therefore, for me, legacy itself provides little solace.

The second has to do with current pragmatism. How does one establish what is best for wife, children, relatives, friends and strangers. Everyone makes mistakes. It is important to fix the mistakes that we can. However, because we live in a dynamic world, our mistakes often spin off in ways that can not be fixed. Also, if one does not know one has made I mistake, how can it be fixed. For the responsible individual, which is what some on this thread seem to be an overarching principle, this then leads to an endless spiral of guilt and second guessing. One is then ultimately suffers from analysis paralysis.

Therefore, for me, the promise of Adonai provides me with a verifiable moral standard that has stood the test of time and affirms my value. It also provides me with a means to resolve problems, deal with guilt and move on with my life, in a manner that is best not only for me, but for those around me.

[ten10ths]

[Replying to Wootah]

I'm saying there's no such thing as sacrifice in your worldview, because risking your mortal life is no sacrifice if by doing it you gain an immortal life.

That's an excellent point!
Though many things can be considered a sacrifice, the real meat of the issue is how MUCH of a sacrifice is it. And if you're relying on eternal bliss, there's not much to risk really.

[ttruscott]

...

I don't miss the mark. Why?

...

You miss the mark of getting the truth about GOD and Christian reality correct. Your definitions are wrong if compared to Christian teaching. That is the mark I measure all things by.

I assumed you were trying to describe the Christian GOD but what you described was not the Christian GOD, that is all. Sorry to jump too a conclusion,

Peace, Ted

[1213]

But I'm godless and righteous. Am I living in sin simply for not believing in a god?
That doesn't seem very righteous, especially for a god.

I have understood that sin is to reject God's words.

Righteous is defined in the Bible by this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

One example of righteous is also in this:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [= to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered] rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:10-14

[bluethread]

[Replying to Wootah]

I'm saying there's no such thing as sacrifice in your worldview, because risking your mortal life is no sacrifice if by doing it you gain an immortal life.

That's an excellent point!
Though many things can be considered a sacrifice, the real meat of the issue is how MUCH of a sacrifice is it. And if you're relying on eternal bliss, there's not much to risk really.

Well, according to that definition Yeshua's death was not a "sacrifice". As the author of the letter to the Hebrews states, (Heb. 22:2) "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." He knew his death would just be a short term thing. Like many things in the Scriptures, many like to take their definition of things and impose them on the Scriptures. There are many kinds of sacrifices and there is a lot more to it than just killing something.

[Peter]

I live my life for others as much as for myself. I do my best for my wife, children, relatives, friends and strangers not just for today(because it makes me feel good) but for when I'd dead and gone. The good I do in this world will outlive me and that's all I need to know.

That is a Taoist view, which is fine. There are two things that do not work for me in that. The first is the belief that one's works carry on into the future. If one studies history, one notices that the significance of an individual, even a powerful one is very small. Also, if one has looked at heredity, one notices that future generations rarely carry on a significant legacy. Therefore, for me, legacy itself provides little solace.

I'm not greedy. I don't require my name to remembered for millennia. If my children remember me fondly that's all I need.

The second has to do with current pragmatism. How does one establish what is best for wife, children, relatives, friends and strangers. Everyone makes mistakes. It is important to fix the mistakes that we can. However, because we live in a dynamic world, our mistakes often spin off in ways that can not be fixed. Also, if one does not know one has made I mistake, how can it be fixed. For the responsible individual, which is what some on this thread seem to be an overarching principle, this then leads to an endless spiral of guilt and second guessing. One is then ultimately suffers from analysis paralysis.

I don't over analyze. I suppose it helps that I don't believe in any god looking over my shoulder. I treat people the way I would like to be treated and it seems to be working quite well.

Therefore, for me, the promise of Adonai provides me with a verifiable moral standard that has stood the test of time and affirms my value. It also provides me with a means to resolve problems, deal with guilt and move on with my life, in a manner that is best not only for me, but for those around me.

I'm glad that you have found a focus for your life - preparing for the afterlife.

[ten10ths]

...

I don't miss the mark. Why?

...

You miss the mark of getting the truth about GOD and Christian reality correct. Your definitions are wrong if compared to Christian teaching. That is the mark I measure all things by.

I assumed you were trying to describe the Christian GOD but what you described was not the Christian GOD, that is all. Sorry to jump too a conclusion,

Peace, Ted

I don't worship your god and thus, have no need for your preaching. I have my own God thank you very much
Jumping to conclusions be dangerous

[ttruscott]

I have always found the salvation concept to be pretty unattractive. I don't believe in the concept of sins being washed away. Once we have done something it can not be undone and neither can the consequences. God can forgive if he wishes I suppose, just as we can forgive each other, and we can elect not to penalize people for their actions, as I suppose God can, but we cannot remove the responsibility that an individual has for his thoughts and actions.
Salvation to me is just man trying to find away to avoid responsibility for his actions.

When I forgive, I do not convict and exact a penalty for the crime. I do ask that reparations be made, sorries said, as much as possible but nowhere in Christian defence of forgiveness does it say we think it is undone. And, if experience serves, most forgiven who are indeed repentant automatically render their sorries and reparations on their own. No church asks less than a proper parent; no ignoring of responsibility is allowed.

Often we are reminded to treat the antagonistic with love because we just might find them next to us a believers some day and memories are long.

The consequences that are washed away from the forgiven sinner by Christ's blood are: their addiction to evil is cured and 2, they no longer face the eternal penalty for their crimes that the unforgiven will face. Socially, they are as forgiven children, not criminals.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

I don't consider it to be my job to convince you and doubt if it is even possible. Such things are reserved for GOD

Thanks Ted, as I said, God isn't doing his job.

Your answer assumes certain things about HIS job, the timing and it relationship to you that are just conjecture. If you are indeed elect, as is most probable, your life is HIS job and it is perfectly determined to bring you back to your first free will choice to accept HIM as your GOD.

Peace, Ted

[bluethread]

I'm glad that you have found a focus for your life - preparing for the afterlife.

I'm was not sure what you meant until I saw the thread that used this quote. I am not preparing for the afterlife. I am living as Adonai intended me to live, partly because I think it is the best way to live in the here and now. It is just one of my hopes that it continues into the afterlife. It is not a matter of being saved at the end of this life, it is also a matter of being saved on a daily basis.