Salvation from what?

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

[Clownboat]

Yes, leave the gory details out. Most of them are RCC embellishments. Any gore involved in a Hebrew sacrifice is incidental and has more to do with the sensibilities of modern western culture than it does with the nature of the sacrifice. That said, we did not sacrifice Yeshua. Yeshua sacrificed Himself. The Romans and the Sanhedrin murdered Yeshua. Yeshua permitted that for the purposes of establishing the ultimate memorial of The Promise, in the manner of the Pesach.

What have you done that makes you be OK with the idea that someone else was tortured and sacrificed to a god concept over?

I cannot thing of anything in my lifetime so far that I have done that would warrant me being OK with someone else being tortured and sacrificed because of it. So I now ask you too.

I find it odd that so many Christians are against whether or not a woman should be able to abort a fetus or not, but when it comes to human sacrifice to appease a god, they act as if it's normal. (Neither should be considered "normal" IMO).

Am I just odd for finding human sacrifices to god concepts irrational? If I ever do enough evil in my life, do you think I might change my mind about human sacrifice? If you would allude to the actions that justify human sacrifice for you, perhaps I can gauge my own actions against them to see if I'm a likely candidate.

[Peter]

[Replying to post 20 by Peter]

What you are saying is emotional and untrue. Ultimately it is all for nothing. Can you see that?

Do you have a miserable time at a party because it's going to end and be "all for nothing?" Do you really think an endless party will be endlessly fun?

Personally, I like to have a good time at a party and go home at a reasonable hour.
A party that last one lifetime is about all I can take.

[Zzyzx]

.

Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat?

There seems to be disagreement in Christendom regarding exact nature of the threat; however, most seem to agree that it originates with their God (and relates to a person's worship preferences and practices).

Is this threat real or imagined?

There is no assurance that the threat is anything more than imagination. However, it has been an effective selling point for religion for thousands of years.

Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat?

No.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 42 by Peter]

Many try to live for the moment. Is that your solution/salvation?

Yes I think heaven will be endless joy.

Why sell yourself so cheaply?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 42 by Peter]

Many try to live for the moment. Is that your solution/salvation?

Solution/salvation from what? Keep in mind, it is only those that believe that they are sinners and deserve to go to hell for being born (most Christians) that need this solution/salvation. Asking such a question from someone that doesn't feel they deserve eternal hell seems odd IMO.

Person A) Quick! Jump in the water to get the fire out.
Person B) But, I'm not on fire. No solution needed for a problem that doesn't exist.

Yes I think heaven will be endless joy.

We are all free to think what we want. For example, I don't think your heaven is real.

Why sell yourself so cheaply?

You are referencing a place that cannot be shown to be real, and then asking non believers in such a place as to why they sell themselves so cheaply. Seems odd. Perhaps I don't fully understand.

[bluethread]

Yes, leave the gory details out. Most of them are RCC embellishments. Any gore involved in a Hebrew sacrifice is incidental and has more to do with the sensibilities of modern western culture than it does with the nature of the sacrifice. That said, we did not sacrifice Yeshua. Yeshua sacrificed Himself. The Romans and the Sanhedrin murdered Yeshua. Yeshua permitted that for the purposes of establishing the ultimate memorial of The Promise, in the manner of the Pesach.

What have you done that makes you be OK with the idea that someone else was tortured and sacrificed to a god concept over?

I cannot thing of anything in my lifetime so far that I have done that would warrant me being OK with someone else being tortured and sacrificed because of it. So I now ask you too.

I find it odd that so many Christians are against whether or not a woman should be able to abort a fetus or not, but when it comes to human sacrifice to appease a god, they act as if it's normal. (Neither should be considered "normal" IMO).

Am I just odd for finding human sacrifices to god concepts irrational? If I ever do enough evil in my life, do you think I might change my mind about human sacrifice? If you would allude to the actions that justify human sacrifice for you, perhaps I can gauge my own actions against them to see if I'm a likely candidate.

It appears that you did not understand may main point, so I will reprint it.

It cost Him separation from Adonai for a short time. However, this is what I am talking about with regard to understanding terms. Giving something up is part of what has been translated as a "sacrifice"(zebach). However, it appears that is not the totality of the concept, or even the most important part. The one thing that all zebach have in common is that they are memorials. Many are commemorative meals. That is what I meant when I said that what Yeshua did was not a "sacrifice". It is not what most people think of when they hear the English term "sacrifice". The zebach of Yeshua is tied to Hebrew culture not Greco/Roman or modern western culture.

I am not saying that I am "ok" with Yeshua's murder. If you will note, in the section that you did quote, I pointed out that neither the Romans nor the Sanhedrin were making a sacrifice. They thought that they were enforcing the law, but what they were doing was unlawful. The sacrifice was on Yeshua's part. He knew that they were out to murder Him, so He arranged to have it occur in such a way as to comport with the symbolism that is record throughout the Tanakh. All I am doing is recognizing what occurred and how that relates to what is recorded in the Tanakh.

[Clownboat]

Yes, leave the gory details out. Most of them are RCC embellishments. Any gore involved in a Hebrew sacrifice is incidental and has more to do with the sensibilities of modern western culture than it does with the nature of the sacrifice. That said, we did not sacrifice Yeshua. Yeshua sacrificed Himself. The Romans and the Sanhedrin murdered Yeshua. Yeshua permitted that for the purposes of establishing the ultimate memorial of The Promise, in the manner of the Pesach.

What have you done that makes you be OK with the idea that someone else was tortured and sacrificed to a god concept over?

I cannot thing of anything in my lifetime so far that I have done that would warrant me being OK with someone else being tortured and sacrificed because of it. So I now ask you too.

I find it odd that so many Christians are against whether or not a woman should be able to abort a fetus or not, but when it comes to human sacrifice to appease a god, they act as if it's normal. (Neither should be considered "normal" IMO).

Am I just odd for finding human sacrifices to god concepts irrational? If I ever do enough evil in my life, do you think I might change my mind about human sacrifice? If you would allude to the actions that justify human sacrifice for you, perhaps I can gauge my own actions against them to see if I'm a likely candidate.

It appears that you did not understand may main point, so I will reprint it.

It cost Him separation from Adonai for a short time. However, this is what I am talking about with regard to understanding terms. Giving something up is part of what has been translated as a "sacrifice"(zebach). However, it appears that is not the totality of the concept, or even the most important part. The one thing that all zebach have in common is that they are memorials. Many are commemorative meals. That is what I meant when I said that what Yeshua did was not a "sacrifice". It is not what most people think of when they hear the English term "sacrifice". The zebach of Yeshua is tied to Hebrew culture not Greco/Roman or modern western culture.

I am not saying that I am "ok" with Yeshua's murder. If you will note, in the section that you did quote, I pointed out that neither the Romans nor the Sanhedrin were making a sacrifice. They thought that they were enforcing the law, but what they were doing was unlawful. The sacrifice was on Yeshua's part. He knew that they were out to murder Him, so He arranged to have it occur in such a way as to comport with the symbolism that is record throughout the Tanakh. All I am doing is recognizing what occurred and how that relates to what is recorded in the Tanakh.

My apologize, this was not even a question that was ever directed towards you. It was asked of LightSeeker. Not sure how or why you got involved.

LightSeeker said:
The Father threatens no one. If a gift is offered, you simply accept it or don't.

This is what spurred my question to him (not you).

Before I know if this is even relevant to you, would you clarify if you agree with:
A gift is offered, you simply accept it or don't (like LightSeeker said).

Sorry, this got confusing for me when you responded to the question asked of another and I didn't put 2 and 2 together. Obviously if you are not a believer in the death and resurrection of Jesus for our sins, this would in no way apply to you.

[bluethread]

Before I know if this is even relevant to you, would you clarify if you agree with:
A gift is offered, you simply accept it or don't (like LightSeeker said).

Sorry, this got confusing for me when you responded to the question asked of another and I didn't put 2 and 2 together. Obviously if you are not a believer in the death and resurrection of Jesus for our sins, this would in no way apply to you.

Sorry for any confusion caused by my interjection. LightSeeker probably sees the "gift" as an unconditional universal offer. I would differ from that view. I see it more as the fulfilling of a promise. One can latch onto the evangelical doctrine of "salvation" as a start, but the concept of Yeshua (Adonai's salvation), has a history that is tied to Pesach. Believing on His name is not a get out of jail free card. It is part of a covenant relationship that goes back to creation. Adonai's salvation requires an acceptance of that covenant. Without an understanding of the covenant one can not really understand the concept of atonement and that is the core of salvation.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 45 by Clownboat]

Solution/salvation from what? Keep in mind, it is only those that believe that they are sinners and deserve to go to hell for being born (most Christians) that need this solution/salvation. Asking such a question from someone that doesn't feel they deserve eternal hell seems odd IMO.

Person A) Quick! Jump in the water to get the fire out.
Person B) But, I'm not on fire. No solution needed for a problem that doesn't exist.

Many peoples choice of salvation from death is to ignore it so they believe that they can just live in the moment, live for now. That is what I inferred Peter meant.

Most people that I know, know their hearts and deeds better than you describe. It is why they struggle to believe that eternal joy is possible. It is why they are realistic, doing the best they can. They are part of the world, defeated by it and so accept it.

We are all free to think what we want. For example, I don't think your heaven is real.

Agreed we can all think what we want. What you need to think about it is the consequences of what you believe. Believing death is real, and your ultimate reality has consequences on how you will live out your life.

You are referencing a place that cannot be shown to be real, and then asking non believers in such a place as to why they sell themselves so cheaply. Seems odd. Perhaps I don't fully understand.

I m arguing that we all face death and seek salvation from it in several ways.

From post 16:
You have a choice :
- to ignore the reality of death or
- be depressed by it or
- worse embrace it or
- live.

To choose option 4 to choose life you actually have to put other people first, which is irrational and foolish, without Jesus.

So in relation to the question, 'Salvation form what?' my view is that we are all trying to save ourselves from death and I see four options available.

[ttruscott]

...

I'm curious, if we are to accept this gift, must we also accept human sacrifice to a god concept?

...

No need to accept human sacrifice to a god at all... but you will need to accept the GOD's sacrifice of Himself on your behalf.

A fine distinction but easily understood by those who are used to defining distinctly.

Peace, Ted