Are governments such as these United States based on the Spirit of Christ?
seeing eye to eye
Please respond short and sweet and fewer words are sometimes better.
Are Governments such as the United States of America based on the Spirit of Christ.et.al?
You go first.
What is the greatest commandment? The fewer Words the better.
ItS
peace
r~
Is the US a Christian Nation?
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Post #111
Fortunately the United States is not, nor never has been a Christian Nation.
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism ultimately want a theocracy. Islam is more open about this in their call for a Caliphate and in the ways most countries with Muslim majorities act. Even where they have a pretense of democracy and elect a president, the 'secular' authority defers to the mullahs. The 'Holy' Roman Empire was the same as has been most of the history of the Hebrews.
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism ultimately want a theocracy. Islam is more open about this in their call for a Caliphate and in the ways most countries with Muslim majorities act. Even where they have a pretense of democracy and elect a president, the 'secular' authority defers to the mullahs. The 'Holy' Roman Empire was the same as has been most of the history of the Hebrews.
Post #112
IT SHOULD NEVER BE A NATION PROCLAIMING ONE RELIGION OR ANOTHER. THE NATION IS ABOUT GOVERNMENT. RELIGION HAS OR SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT GOVERNMENT.
THE FAR RIGHT IS TRYING TO CLAIM WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION. NO...SOME OF US ARE CHRISTIAN PEOPLE. AND SOME ARE JEWISH, MUSLEM, ATHEIST, BUDDHISTS, ETC. TO CLAIM THE USA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION IS TO SAY THOSE WHO ARE OTHERWISE ARE LEFT OUT.
AS A FAR LEFT CHRISTIAN, I THINK CHRISTIANITY OR ANY OTHER RELIGION IS A PERSONAL ISSUE. I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE JUDGING OTHERS ON THEIR BELIEFS.
"
I HOPE NO ONE IS BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE IN GOD'S "EYES".
I SAY HOPE AS I NEVER PRESUME TO KNOW FOR SURE HOW OUR CREATOR THINKS. IT IS NOT MY PLACE.
THE FAR RIGHT IS TRYING TO CLAIM WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION. NO...SOME OF US ARE CHRISTIAN PEOPLE. AND SOME ARE JEWISH, MUSLEM, ATHEIST, BUDDHISTS, ETC. TO CLAIM THE USA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION IS TO SAY THOSE WHO ARE OTHERWISE ARE LEFT OUT.
AS A FAR LEFT CHRISTIAN, I THINK CHRISTIANITY OR ANY OTHER RELIGION IS A PERSONAL ISSUE. I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE JUDGING OTHERS ON THEIR BELIEFS.
"
I HOPE NO ONE IS BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE IN GOD'S "EYES".
I SAY HOPE AS I NEVER PRESUME TO KNOW FOR SURE HOW OUR CREATOR THINKS. IT IS NOT MY PLACE.
I hear you
Post #113I hear your shout. What makes you think the far right has a clue what it means to be Christian? How about you?
def: Christian
1. accepts others as equal
1. does not judge the sins of others
def: anti-
-opposite of-
syn: judges sin as crime
I just happen to be taking a poll. Answer as you please the following questions.
What is the rule of law?
What is the greatest commandment?
What is the greatest sin?
ItS
liberty and justice equal for all
ronw
def: Christian
1. accepts others as equal
1. does not judge the sins of others
def: anti-
-opposite of-
syn: judges sin as crime
I just happen to be taking a poll. Answer as you please the following questions.
What is the rule of law?
What is the greatest commandment?
What is the greatest sin?
ItS
liberty and justice equal for all
ronw
Re: I hear you
Post #114Actually, this is the definition (according to dictionary.com):r~ wrote: I hear your shout. What makes you think the far right has a clue what it means to be Christian? How about you?
def: Christian
1. accepts others as equal
1. does not judge the sins of others
def: anti-
-opposite of-
syn: judges sin as crime
Christian
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: "a Christian faith."
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: "Spain is a Christian country."
3. of or pertaining to Christians: "many Christian deaths in the Crusades."
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: "She displayed true Christian charity."
5. decent; respectable: "They gave him a good Christian burial."
6. human; not brutal; humane: "Such behavior isn't Christian."
noun
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ:
"He died like a true Christian."
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11. a male given name.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?
Post #116The law is, or at least was Christian, not Muslim for instance. This is what defines the Country. The Muslim will be judged under our 'Christian based' laws, but as you said, this does not mean that the Muslim is now Christian. The Muslims can continue to exercise their Muslim faith and continue their 'Mercy Killing', but they will have to face our laws. So your wife can remain female while you remain male.KenRU wrote:How do you figure? Being equal before the law does not mean we get to change the definition of what makes each religion distinct. I’m equal under the law as is my wife. That does not make me female, nor her male. That is the logic you are using.arian wrote:This is the definition, it is you who is redefining secularism, our laws, what is good and what is evil, our constitution, Jesus, God, etc.KenRU wrote:This hardly redefines the word “secular� or “Christian�arian wrote:SecularismKenRU wrote: [Replying to post 103 by arian]
Religion, as meant in the definition of secularism, includes all religions, not all but Arian's version. You don't get to redefine a word. Sorry.
Secularism is a principle that involves two basic propositions. The first is the strict separation of the state from religious institutions. The second is that people of different religions and beliefs are equal before the law. Separation of religion from state.
But now that you mention it, this too is changing. Women are protesting their feminism and are taking their shirts and bras off and walking around Hawaii beach communities topless, .. like men. This message for the future US of A is being programmed into our new generation at an alarming rate. Just look at the Music Videos, especially by Lady Gaga. This reaches not thousands, but billions of youths and they don't even have to leave the house.
Can I control it? No, they have their 'noise cancelling' ear plugs in. Wait, .. wait a minute, it is 'parent cancelling', because I'd be talking to them and they'd be like, .. you know, .. rocking their heads to the music.
It's like a frog in a pot that's being heated up slowly, .. very slowly it doesn't even know its being boiled alive. I guess you won't see this either till it's too late.You still haven’t showed any logical reason for this assertion.arian wrote:Not just take it for granted, but are permanently changing the definitions in dictionaries. To brainwash the people to accept these new terms, they spend billions on TV shows, movies, reeducation of teachers, music, aps, games, to where this next generation will be less defiant, and just simply 'Obey'. I can show you hours of examples of this, but for now I am showing that this US of A IS a Christian Religion Nation. And by the day the entire world will be a 'Christian Religion World', and exactly because the constant definition and re-definition of words like "Christian".KenRU wrote:You have not showed an example of this.arian wrote:My friend, I am not redefining words, I am just beginning to learn them. Remember me saying that I am terribly un-schooled, so I have to look up words. But because of this, I have noticed that people, even with college degrees have at times grave misunderstanding of words. If the teachers, our parents, neighbors, our community misunderstood words, after a long time I guess people just take it for granted.
When I came to America, we prayed in school. half my class in Detroit was Arab, some Chinese, and many other European, .. we all prayed. No one was offended because we all knew that there was a separation of Church and State, we were all praying to our God. But time came when the only ones who were offended was the atheists. They FORCED their no-god religion on all of us, so we all stopped praying. It became a law!!!!!No, I’m saying some very remarkable and enlightened thinkers (Jefferson, Adams etc) had the foresight to design a government with a “wall of separation� between religion (ALL FORMS) and government.arian wrote:What? So are you saying that the laws in the US were made by all the different ideologies, religions coming together and they sat down, and one by one came up with some special laws designed just for the US?KenRU wrote:No, I say it is not. No waffling, no redefining, no vacillating. No, straight forward.arian wrote:The question was asked; "Is the US a Christian Nation?" and you say "not quite",
Given that we actually have documents that prove their intent, I’m not sure how any other interpretation is possible.
The document says separation of church and state, not tell you what you can eat, think, silent pray to, or what 'religion' you must serve. The definition of the entire 'intent' was changed.
Tell me ONE nation, religion, peoples, at any time in human history that doesn't 'recognize the Bible'? Now accepting its teachings is another story. The Christian Religion doesn't accept its teachings, just some of it that they can use against others. Not for, .. but against them. Jesus taught in the Bible to "Love your enemies", and the Christians teach; 'kill those that you just converted in that country just yesterday'. Now even the one they called 'brother' is their enemy.arian wrote: All religions are under the Christian Religion umbrella, because everyone can have their own interpretation of the Bible, or as you said; "secular".
If true, how do you include other religions (especially the ones that pre-date Christ) that do not recognize the bible?
Again, you are not paying attention. I agree that a religion will never teach you it is wrong to kill and murder, that's what I have been saying. I'm with you on this, I don't need a 'religion' to tell me what is right and what is wrong, .. that whether or not killing is good or bad. I know it's bad, because if anyone killed one of my family or me, I wouldn't like it.KenRU wrote:That is simply ridiculous. I do not need religion to tell me that it is wrong to murder. And, if what you say is true for you, then that is very sad indeed. If you’re saying that without god, you would find no reason not to kill someone, then, that is quite sad indeed.arian wrote:Your 'Christian Religion' is shining through KenRU, .. only a Religious Christian would find 'Mercy killing' barbaric.
It just seems that way because what I am revealing here doesn't fit in with your indoctrinations. Get out of her my people, get out of the box, the religious thinking with their chains on your mind.No, I’m quite consistent. And no, secular has a pretty set definition. You are really wreaking havoc with definitions.arian wrote:You are jumping all over the place because like I said, secular can mean just about anything the Christian Religion says it means.
Do you believe that someone could read something that is clearly defined by logical and rational standards, yet understand it very wrong? Do you think that's possible?
When I say 'God', what is the first thing that comes to your mind? "Religion", correct?
When I say 'Evolution', what comes in your mind, .. "science", correct? Are you consistent in your thinking?
You will never find God our CREATOR in any religion, you will find man-made gods, but not our Creator. Just as you will never find true science in "Evolution", now you may find some science mixed into it, but the concept of billion years of evolution is not science. Science observes the world around us, not predict what happened, or how these dried up bones lived out their lives millions and millions of years ago. That is fairytales of a time before time began.
I'm sure you agree that we could be 'consistently' wrong too!?
Honor killing is 'mercy killing'. If their daughter gets raped, she is an abomination to the family name, she is 'shame' and she is paraded naked in public, whipped, stoned and then re-raped by the Imam and slowly killed for her own good. In their mind she should not want to live in hiding, never to be seen in public again, so it is a mercy killing for the benefit for all in that Muslim community, especially for the girl.Wow, you really do warp reality to make your point. Let’s look at how you twisted the reality of the situation here. You just equated an “honor killing� with a “mercy killing�. Where is the mercy in killing your wife? Sorry, you just compared apples to footballs. If, in your mind, these are equal, then perhaps this conversation is hopeless.arian wrote:Mercy killing is OK for Christians and even legal through abortion, but when a Muslim does his version of Mercy Killing, Oh No! That's not the Christian way! As if abortion was less barbaric then the Muslim version!?! What hypocrisy!
Look my dear friend, I am just telling you as I see it. Do you want me to lie? I know because I have been there, and know how difficult it is to leave it all behind. This is why I am so grateful for this debating site, people here will happily point out when I answer something from religious indoctrination rather then from logic.I don’t know it because it is not happening. I’m pretty far removed from my religious days, thank you very much.arian wrote:Oh no my friend I'm not the one confused. You're just seeing this through Christian religious indoctrination, through their long history of hypocrisy and you don't even know it.False, I do not see that the word “secularism� is misunderstood. The US is definitely not a Christian Religion Nation. I think you are profoundly confused on both of these issues.arian wrote:So you see, both the word 'secularism' is misunderstood, and US is definitely a Christian Religion Nation
If I use the Bible, it is because it supports what I have come to learn through logical rationalization to be true, .. not point to it as some authority. You see religions do that and expect you to believe without you rationalizing about it, .. or questioning it.
The definition of 'faith' most people understand is what is called; "blind faith". Blind faith is what every religion requires, but faith by evidence and substance is what is required to know God.
And it seems it will never happen unless you step out of the box called; "religion".False, this has not happened.arian wrote:I have over and over shown you this through many different examples.
I agree with you 101%. We don't need religion, it is a destroyer. It deludes mortal men believing they possess the power of God which can be very dangerous and destructive.Reason, empathy, compassion. Seems like a good idea to me. You do not need religion for these, despite religion’s claims to the contrary.arian wrote:Then by what, by the law of the wild?They won’t judge (as you say) according to any religious law, thankfully.arian wrote:because they don't judge according to Muslim law. They won't even consider it, .. so far that is, thank God!
Not to mention, there is statistical data that shows the more secular (less religious) a country or state is, the less crime occurs. Just Google crime and religion statistics and you will find multiple studies showing the relationship.
How? .. the religious say; "Jesus is God"KenRU wrote:You just proved my point that you are redefining words to suit you circuitous logic.arian wrote:See, this is what's nice about sticking with your religion; The dictionary, and the Bible may say Jesus is the 'Son of God', but the religious refer to him as God.KenRU wrote:Um, the Catholics for starters, since I was one, I’m pretty sure of this. And, the definition of the word (see ANY dictionary) kind of backs me up.arian wrote:Who says US Christians believe Christ is the Son of God?KenRU wrote:The word "Christian" can never refer to other faiths, by definition. Since the other faiths do not believe that Christ is the son of god, they can never be called Christian (at least not accurately).
The Bible says; "Jesus is the Son of God".
The religious redefined the words "Son of God" to mean just "God"
I know, and after 1700 years of it, when you tell them they get scared and offensive about it. It's like anything else we get used to, especially after many generations.KenRU wrote:The Catholic church worships all gods? Someone should really tell the Catholics, they are very much unaware of this.arian wrote:Christ is God only through the Trinity Doctrine, and the only ones considered 'true Christians' are the Trinitarians. You will never find Jesus being God in the Bible. It's a religious doctrine, like I said, that where they read 'Jesus is the Son of God', they see 'Jesus is God'.KenRU wrote:According to Trinitarians this may be true. But according to Catholics, they are the true Christians. And according to the Baptists, they are the true Christians. And according to the Presbyterians, they are the true Christians. Etc, etc etc. Your assertion here is baseless and ignores the definition of the word.arian wrote:They believe and serve Christ as God. Just ask ANY Trinitarian Christian (only Trinitarians are considered 'true' Christians)
You just changed the question. The question isn’t whether Christ is god (they all agree he is).
Actually the Catholic Church worships all gods, which means as I said; The Christian Religion contains all religions, all the gods. This is why I say that the US is a Christian Religion Nation, not a Christian Nation.
If you were a Catholic, you should know the importance they place on the Trinity Doctrine. And yes I believe I know how definitions work as I was hoping you would have noticed by now!?Yes. Are you sure you understand how definitions work?arian wrote:Are you sure you were a Catholic?
I know it may sound mean, which is actually good, it shows you don't like religion. It's bad if you don't realize you still are.Ok, now you’re just being mean. I am not religious.arian wrote:Ah, .. a true religious person.KenRU wrote:You just proved my point. The correct terminology is Native American, not Indians. Your use of the words “secular� and “Christian� are akin to calling Native Americans Indians.arian wrote:Columbus named the natives of America 'Indians', who cares what the Indians in India think, right?
I was revealing that the definitions of right and wrong have changed over the years. What used to be mutually considered wrong is now right and visa versa. But if you feel this is pointless, then by all means I'm also wasting my time here.KenRU wrote:No, I have been using the standard definitions of words that can be found in any dictionary. You are not. And that is making this conversation very tedious and frustrating. And wholly pointless.arian wrote:Now you jump to 'political correctness', .. anything to be right!?
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
Post #117
So if the dictionary says I am an evolving ape, I should accept that, is that what you are telling me?KenRU wrote:Arian, all of the above just goes to show me that you a truly savaging the definitions of the words religious, secular and Christian. Conversation will be impossible between us as long as you continue to do this. I fail to see how we can ever converse successfully if we are not using the same dictionary, do you?arian wrote:Please forgive me if I sounded offensive, I honestly am trying my best responding to the topic at hand. No personal offense intended.I stopped doing that years ago, which allows me to see both outside and inside the “religious box�. However, I do not think it is something you are able to do.arian wrote:It's OK my friend, I know it's not easy to think outside of the 'religious-box'.KenRU wrote:But you’re not calling black, “black�. You’re calling black a “bunny rabbit�, using circuitous logic, then claiming it the “truth�.arian wrote: am not religious, calling black, 'black', and white 'white' is not because of some religious influence, it is the truth.
Religion - Merriam Webster
1. the belief in a god or in a group of gods
2. an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
3. an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
Please at least take a moment to absorb what I'm hoping to reveal to you, OK? Please, I don't care if you think I'm stubborn and stupid, I'm just asking you to hear me out. You don't have to respond to anything else I said above, this following should sum everything up anyways. Please just respond to this here!?
The dictionaries, that is every secular, religious dictionaries and encyclopedias I have ever read so far defines religion in this fashion I have shown above, and I believe this is what you are referring to. Now lets consider this, ok?
Religion
1. the belief in a god or in a group of gods
2. an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
3. an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
Again, I beg you to just take a moment to consider this, ok?
We looked up 'religion', correct? Now what were the first few definitions? They were; 1. the belief in a god or in a group of gods, and 2. an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods, right? What if I play tennis every morning starting at 6 AM, and play exactly for one hour, this would be an activity that is very important to me, correct? I play tennis at 6 AM every morning religiously, right?
But I don't believe in god or gods. I don't go to church, I don't pray neither silently bowing my head, nor on my knee nor anything that would even remotely resemble worship of any so called 'higher entity' or any Divine beings good or bad, I don't wear a cap, I don't hold a rosary, or wear a cross necklace, I play tennis for one hour every morning, and let's say I have been doing this since I was very young, so let's say 50 years.
Now watch this; If someone asked me if I was religious or not, and I was to reply; "yes, very much so, my wife tells me I'm a religious fanatic!". Now what would that person think? You think it would be: "Aaahh yeeaahh... this guy must play tennis every morning at 6AM!" ??
Be honest. That would be the last thing that person would think.
But look again, religion is associated with the belief and worship of God or gods, why? Especially if as I said, I never believed in any god or gods, or ever prayed to one, or ever went to church?
Like if I say I was gay, why should I be associated with homosexuals? Can I be just happy for a day? Where did the expression of 'joyful and happy' become to mean I must be a homosexual? Or doing something I love like playing tennis every morning at 6 AM religiously become an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods?
This is what I mean, that people have put god and gods into religion, like they did homosexual into gay. Think about it, 'gay', ah, you must be a homosexual, or 'religious', oh you must believe and worship god or gods. But what if I'm just gay after I play an hour of tennis every morning religiously?
This is why I say that you can never find God our Creator in 'religion', nor will the word 'religion' define any God or gods. People only 'assume' it does.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
what does Allah tell you so
Post #118RE: arian/RU: GET THEE GONE, START A THREAD OF YOUR OWN;\ please?
so sorry
I’m trying to take a poll here. Your mark is recorded. Now please offer better answers 0r get thee behind me Once and for All.
1) What is the rule of law?
2) What is the greatest command?
3) What is the difference between sin and crime?
concise counts, answer when ever you please by
1)
2)
3)
ItS
Good and All
r~
so sorry
I’m trying to take a poll here. Your mark is recorded. Now please offer better answers 0r get thee behind me Once and for All.
1) What is the rule of law?
2) What is the greatest command?
3) What is the difference between sin and crime?
concise counts, answer when ever you please by
1)
2)
3)
ItS
Good and All
r~
Re: what does Allah tell you so r~?
Post #119r~ wrote: RE: arian/RU: GET THEE GONE, START A THREAD OF YOUR OWN;\ please?
so sorry
I’m trying to take a poll here. Your mark is recorded. Now please offer better answers 0r get thee behind me Once and for All.
1) What is the rule of law?
2) What is the greatest command?
3) What is the difference between sin and crime?
concise counts, answer when ever you please by
1)
2)
3)
ItS
Good and All
r~
That you will break it.concise counts, answer when ever you please by
1) What is the rule of law?
To find out who 'God' is, and then love your God with all your heart, soul and mind. Oh, .. and also; "stay the hell away from religion!"2) What is the greatest command?
Oh that's easy; If you feel guilty, you're committing a crime, no matter what it is your feeling guilty about. But if you "know" you are doing right, even if it's considered a crime, you have not sinned.3) What is the difference between sin and crime?
Is that far enough 'behind you'? Seems like all our responses are 'behind you'!? Maybe you should stop and read our comments so we could all catch up? Oh, .. and answering them would be nice too!?
This thread is about; 'Is US a Christian Country?', are you saying that I should start a thread on it? You have derailed it to Allah knows where?
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
Post #120
[Replying to post 116 by arian]
Arian,
There are so many things wrong with your responses that I couldn't possibly begin to respond to all of them. I have no desire to (further) hijack this thread.
Suffice it (my response) to say that you have no more shown that the laws of the US are Christian in nature, then you have shown that Catholics worship the Hindu (or another) god or that mercy killing is the same as honor killing (if you think this then you and I have very different definitions of the word mercy).
Oh, and the Catholics, by the way, think Christ is both the "son of god" and "god". While I believe all religions and beliefs in god to be foolish, the Catholics do have scripture to back up their claim. So, no, they dot no worship all gods.
I'm sorry, but I see no logic or basis for the claims you are making above.
-Ken
Arian,
There are so many things wrong with your responses that I couldn't possibly begin to respond to all of them. I have no desire to (further) hijack this thread.
Suffice it (my response) to say that you have no more shown that the laws of the US are Christian in nature, then you have shown that Catholics worship the Hindu (or another) god or that mercy killing is the same as honor killing (if you think this then you and I have very different definitions of the word mercy).
Oh, and the Catholics, by the way, think Christ is both the "son of god" and "god". While I believe all religions and beliefs in god to be foolish, the Catholics do have scripture to back up their claim. So, no, they dot no worship all gods.
I'm sorry, but I see no logic or basis for the claims you are making above.
-Ken
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg