Killer

[Wordleymaster1]

If you're to believe the bible, God kills. God also creates.
If you're a Christian, you love and follow God (or are supposed to at least).
Why do you follow a god that kills?
Charlie Manson has his followers. And he has killed (in one way or another - guilty enough to get jail time). Are Christians to be considered like his followers?
Or do Christians overlook God's killing and accept if as justifiable? Well I guess the answer is YES, so maybe the question should be WHY

Why do Christians overlook God's killing (the worst murdere in human history it would seem)?
Is it the same reason why Charlie's followers overlook his past?

Or will Christians take offense at the comparison?

[Unhand Me Sir]

The point is, He isn't taking life. He's simply moving it. YOU would be 'taking' it. I would be. He, knowing quite well that life continues, would not be.

In terms of the Old Testament atrocities that doesn't wash. There is no afterlife in those parts of the Bible. No mention of eternal reward or punishment. It isn't there. Some of the later Old Testament texts start to explore the idea that the dead will one day return to Earth in their own bodies, but there's no hint of our modern idea of the afterlife.

Another poster says the Old Testament only makes sense from the foot of the cross. No, it only makes sense if you try to read what it actually says and ask what the people who wrote it believed.

[higgy1911]

I have already defined death. It's to stop the function of a persons body. It may be more than at as well but dying means your body stops functioning at the least. Killing means making it stop. Murder means making it stop without consent or necessity.

The morality of killing simply does not necessarily depend on what happens after death. Even if I knew absolutely there was afterlife I wouldn't have the right to cause another persons body to cease.

[higgy1911]

Is this really that contentious an issue?

I don't deny that killing somebody might be different if there is eternal life. Or if God knows there is eternal life.

But even if that is the case I don't see why that would make killing an act devoid of immorality.

I for one claim the right not to have my life taken from me and changed against my consent by another. Certainly others have the power to do it. But I would not have that done unto me. Life does not impress me with its grandness but I still want to live it for as long as I can.

I don't know what Gods design is, but a higher power's design does not mean anything by default. My life belongs to me as every man's does. Taking it needlessly is wrong. If it's not wrong, then right and wrong don't mean much of anything in terms of how we live this life. And they do mean something to me.

So it matters and if I am going to believe in the righteousness of god or a man or of an ideal then I have to make judgements about it.

In fact everyone judges God. If you trust Him, you have judged him worthy of trust. I don't disparage that. But this notion that we can't make judgements about His actions is absurd.

Any given judgement may be shown to be faulty, but that's what we are doing here. To say we cannot judge is to oxymoronic, for to say so is to have Judged Him.

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 5 by dianaiad]

when He ends mortal life, He is not killing but simply moving people from one state of existence to another, like that firefighter who knew very well that by pushing the woman out of the window,

Bah - foolishness and a very sick analogy to me. You're making an excuse for your god to do something that is wrong by human standards.
Of course, God isn't human right? We can't hold God to human standards, right?
If that's the case, there are NO standards we can hold god to so there's no point in dicussing it. This WHOLE website is pointless and shouldn't exist.
But it does
So either
1- we CAN (and SHOULD) hold God to these standards OR
2- we shouldn't and we're ALL here for no reason other than to argue.

The fact (which I LOL at when talking about God but I'll play to 'God is real game to appease) is that God ended the lives of millions of people in the Old Testament alone. It could be argued that God ended the life of ALL of humanity by letting sin (the wages of sin is death) become part of His pitiful plan from the beginning.
No, your God doesn't get off the hook that easily. Your God is a miserable murdering tyrant that has brainwashed his people (Christians) into believing otherwise.Only truly foolish and blind people would follow such a thing to me.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 5 by dianaiad]

when He ends mortal life, He is not killing but simply moving people from one state of existence to another, like that firefighter who knew very well that by pushing the woman out of the window,

Bah - foolishness and a very sick analogy to me. You're making an excuse for your god to do something that is wrong by human standards.
Of course, God isn't human right? We can't hold God to human standards, right?

Right.

Or...as I was watching TV last night, I caught a blurb for a future show. A man was talking to a couple of cops (that conversation wasn't shown) and had a final throw away line as he turned and walked through some glass doors. "A man puts a drill through someone's head and you arrest him. I get paid for it!"

It's all about knowledge. We have very different standards of behavior for our children than we do for ourselves as adults, right? So what's so unreasonable that God, the creator of all things (including the afterlife, if we are talking about the creator God of Christianity) has a different standard of behavior than is expected of us?

Perhaps...just perhaps...He knows what He's doing, and we don't?

If that's the case, there are NO standards we can hold god to so there's no point in dicussing it. This WHOLE website is pointless and shouldn't exist.
But it does

In a way, you are correct. There aren't. it's not our job to JUDGE God. It's our job to figure out if He exists. What are you going to do if you find out that He does...and you just don't like Him much?

Who are you going to complain to?

.............and have you heard of the fallacy of the false dichotomy?

So either
1- we CAN (and SHOULD) hold God to these standards OR
2- we shouldn't and we're ALL here for no reason other than to argue.

That makes no sense...and it is a pretty good example of that false dichotomy I alluded to just now. It's true that either God is, or He isn't, and OUR arguing isn't going to affect that one way or the other.

But our being here isn't about His existence, is it? It's about what we believe regarding His existence. That's a whole 'nuther slice of toast.

The fact (which I LOL at when talking about God but I'll play to 'God is real game to appease)

Or....you could behave as debaters have at least since the time of Aristotle and his peers and predecessors, and admit a concept to be true 'for the sake of discussion' only without telegraphing your disdain for the idea. Doing so, after all, poisons the well and messes up your discourse.

...and it doesn't leave your debate opponent all that willing to be civil and serious back at you.

is that God ended the lives of millions of people in the Old Testament alone. It could be argued that God ended the life of ALL of humanity by letting sin (the wages of sin is death) become part of His pitiful plan from the beginning.

Actually, we all die. Ain't one of us getting out of this earth life physically alive. The idea is that this mortal life is temporary, our physical lives were never meant to be permanent, and we are all headed for a life after this one.

....and you are still conflating physical existence with all 'life,' as in, the end of mortal life is the end of life, period. I understand that this is what you believe to be true, but you can't impose YOUR understanding of what life...and the end of life...is upon the creator God Who made the universe, the life we live AND the 'afterlife.' The One Who, if He IS 'guilty' of killing the lot of us, is also the One Who fixed so that the end of our physical life is not the end of US; that we continue on as conscious, spiritual beings.

You can't have this both ways.

Either God (as I believe Him to be) exists and there IS an afterlife, so the end of our physical life does not mean the end of life, but is, rather, a necessary stepping stone in our eternal existences,

OR our consciousness and existence ends when physical life does, in which case God does not exist.

Either way God is not guilty of murder. He doesn't kill. He changes, He moves...but face it; to us as mortals, 'kill' means 'ending life.' Ending consciousness. Stopping existence. We haven't got the knowledge to be certain that this is not what we are doing when we stop physical life.

God, quite obviously, would...and I think He does.

No, your God doesn't get off the hook that easily. Your God is a miserable murdering tyrant that has brainwashed his people (Christians) into believing otherwise.Only truly foolish and blind people would follow such a thing to me.

Well, there you go...

You are taking the concept of deity, robbing Him of one of the most important aspects of His influence upon us (that afterlife thing) because YOU don't believe in it.

It is illogical.

If He exists, then all the stuff that comes with Him exists, as well, including that afterlife.

Even if He does not, the STORY about Him is that He has created that afterlife and we all will end up in it; He does not kill, but merely moves....rather like calling people home from Seal Team camp. We've had a rough time, have learned a lot, but we are now home.

Either way, you cannot, logically or reasonably, call Him any of the things you just called him. I've been thinking about why people using this sort of language about God makes me so angry, and I finally figured out why. It offends my sense of logic and reason, as well as being rather personally insulting, and insulting the character of everybody who believes in Him. After all, you don't believe in God, so the only folks around to bear the brunt of those insults are the believers. You know that, the believers know that, and we ain't stupid, honey.

For me, though, it's annoying. Non-believers are supposed to pride themselves upon their logical thinking and rational approach to things. Your reaction and words are emotional and illogical in the extreme.

It is as if you were screaming imprecations at Jean val Jean for killing the priest and absconding with the silver. But wait, I hear you say (if you've read the book, and even if you haven't ) he didn't KILL the priest and the priest gave him the silver!

My point, precisely. If God is real, then you need to examine Him according to what He has done...including the afterlife thing.

If He is fictional, you need to examine Him in the context of the story told about Him...including the afterlife thing.

In addition, if He is not real, He is certainly not guilty of any wrong doing, and is an invention of the writers and those who believe in him...so your vile imprecations supposedly aimed at HIM are in reality aimed directly at the believers.

You know that. We know that...and frankly, I'm tired of pretending that this is not exactly what is happening.

Y'know the fun part of all this?

Between the two of us, believer and non....I'm the only one who might be able to say 'I told you so." I promise, should this actually happen, to be a great deal more gentle in my language regarding your mistaken beliefs than you are now, with what you view as mine.

[Zzyzx]

.

Perhaps...just perhaps...He knows what He's doing, and we don't?

Exactly, perhaps "he" knows. PERHAPS

That is a possibility, a guess, an opinion, a supposition (or whatever) BUT many here insist that they KNOW what a favorite God knows, does, wants, requires, etc.

[dianaiad]

.

Perhaps...just perhaps...He knows what He's doing, and we don't?

Exactly, perhaps "he" knows. PERHAPS

That is a possibility, a guess, an opinion, a supposition (or whatever) BUT many here insist that they KNOW what a favorite God knows, does, wants, requires, etc.

Of course it is.

However, if He does exist, and the story about Him is accurate, then there is no 'perhaps' about it. He DOES know.

.........and to be honest, I've not seen anybody in here claim the absolute knowledge that you claim for Him. Strong belief? Sure. I have that.

But 'knowledge?" as in the sort of absolute knowledge that God would have, and would be required to make ending a physical life be 'not killing?'

No. No mortal man has that.

BTW, why are you so exercised about someone having that sort of solid faith and belief in God? Aren't you just as certain that God does not exist?

Why is it acceptable and right for you to be as certain as you are (and you must be pretty certain in order to use the sort of language you do about God) that He doesn't exist, but be utterly contemptuous towards those who believe that He does?

Because you, you think, are right and we are not?

How does that make you ANY different from the theists whose opinions you are so contemptuous of?

[Zzyzx]

.

BTW, why are you so exercised about someone having that sort of solid faith and belief in God? Aren't you just as certain that God does not exist?

Heck no I am not certain that a "god" does not exist. I have NEVER stated anything like that. In fact, I have stated over and over that ANY of the thousands of proposed "gods" MAY exist " all that is lacking is credible / convincing evidence.

Why is it acceptable and right for you to be as certain as you are (and you must be pretty certain in order to use the sort of language you do about God) that He doesn't exist, but be utterly contemptuous towards those who believe that He does?

"Certain as you are", "utterly contemptuous"??? Where the heck does that stuff come from?

Is it a bad Monday?

[higgy1911]

Certainty is not at issue.

I think ending a mortal life is wrong, regardless of afterlife. I think doing so without consent of the mortal in question or necessity on the part of the life taker is murder. I just do not see what this afterlife business has to do with a persons right to their mortal life , and murder is the crime of taking that moral life away. And it's a crime by any name.

Especially given the whole free will business. The Egyptian first born did not wish to die. They did not need to die. Many of them would have been helpless to change what they were being killed for.

And I am using die in the same way you are Dianiad, to be divinely moved from one place to another. Without consent.

[1213]

Or will Christians take offense at the comparison?

I think the comparison is not correct, Manson has not given life.

If we think God should not kill anyone, would it really mean that all should live eternally? If not, what would you think is the correct time to end someones life?

I would like to know also, do you accept abort or euthanasia?

Personally I think God has every right to decide how long people live, because he has given life. And I dont see any reason why God should give eternal life for all. Would it be good for example if people who want to do evil to others would live forever to torment others?

And if we really believe what the Bible tells, the death of body is not the end. Soul or spirit can live forever, even if the body dies. Therefore I dont see any problem, if body dies, like most bodies actually do. I wouldnt for example see those deaths in great flood any more wrong than common deaths that God allows to occur every day. Death is not bad or wrong in my opinion. Murder is, because it is unjust kill. I think God dont murder, because in my opinion he has right to decide how long people live.