The Ultimate Truth

[Lionel20]

In my adult years I've always had this visceral affirmation that other areas in my cerebrum could never fully make sense of. I can't shake it, I've learned to embrace it, this idea, that considers itself much more certain than an idea, seems indigestible by the empirical evidence. Yet I insist it to be true.

This is how I define my faith somewhat. A faith in a Source that has empowered the nature of the universe in a way that I cannot fully comprehend. It's not specifically a faith in the Bible, although I credit the Bible for the awakening thoughts. The authors and organizers of the Bible for the most part, I presume were on the same journey that I'm on, trying to understand this seemingly inexplicable belief that empirical sciences don't appear to have the capabilities to satisfy.

[otseng]

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[Divine Insight]

The authors and organizers of the Bible for the most part, I presume were on the same journey that I'm on, trying to understand this seemingly inexplicable belief that empirical sciences don't appear to have the capabilities to satisfy.

But let's not forget that the authors of the Bible also had obviously false superstitious beliefs. For example, the believe that some people are possessed by demons that need to be exorcized. They also believed that disease and natural disasters were an actual curse from a God.

So while they were on a journey to explain things in terms of supersitious invisible demons, Gods or angels, etc., they clearly didn't make much progress on that journey.

You suggest that the empirical science don't appear to have the capabilities of addressing these question is a "satisfactory" way. But exactly who is it that science needs to "satisfy"?

Science has explained away the demon possession superstition by recognizing that there actually exist very real psychological problems. Some of which are caused by physical defects in the brain. Such as epilepsy, etc. It's simply possible for brains to become confused. There is no need to imagine demonic possession to explain these things. In fact, science has often offered cures in many of these situations.

How can science be said to not be "satisfying" when it is actually offering cures for various mental illnesses and problems?

The science of neurology and psychology offer great promise for even far more outstanding cures and preventions. In fact, they actually already do offer quite many that, unfortunately, many people simply aren't taking advantage of or heeding the preventive measures that they need to take.

Science has also offered many cures and even vaccinations for many of the diseases that were once thought to be "plagues caused by an angry God"

Science has also explained the cause of natural disasters. And once again we see that these are not the action of angry Gods or demons. In fact, science can now offer advance warnings in the case of many natural disasters. Especially things like tracking hurricanes, and warning when tornadoes are likely to form.

How can science not be "satisfying" when it has explained these things in such great detail and has removed the superstitions that used to surround them?

Science has even discovered and explained how we got here. Life evolved on earth and we as humans are simply one of the primates known as the Great Apes. I think it's amazing to realize that we are actually so closely related to out fellow creatures on this planet.

I don't see how anyone can say that science is not "satisfying" unless they actually prefer to wallow in totally unexplained and unwarranted superstitions.

Why is it that sound and rational explanations that even allow us to understand and take measures to control of prevent negative things from happening should be "unsatisfying".

And more to the point, why would acceptance of ancient superstitions that are clearly false be any more satisfying.

In short, where is there an alternative to science that has any merit at all?

I don't know of an alternative to science that has actually been right about anything. Do you?

Please don't point to the Bible, if those authors got anything right that was obviously a stroke of extreme luck considering the myriad of things they clearly got dead wrong.

[Lionel20]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

The core of the Bible to me at least is:

1.) There's a eternal power
2.) It has intimate knowledge of us
3.) It has a purposed work for each of us
4.) It has equip us to achieve those purposes
5.) It will judge us based on our fulfillment of these purposes

The core of the Bible, author by author, editor by editor, doesn't change. What varies is our interpretations or perceptions of these purposes. I think often times the Biblical writers, as we so often do, entangled their own accumulated world views with God's purposes. For example, I don't think the Apostle Paul could foresee a world where women had such autonomy in the church.

[Divine Insight]

The core of the Bible to me at least is:

1.) There's a eternal power
2.) It has intimate knowledge of us
3.) It has a purposed work for each of us
4.) It has equip us to achieve those purposes
5.) It will judge us based on our fulfillment of these purposes

That's a nice little dream, but is it realistic?

Let's take these one at a time.

1.) There's a eternal power

That may or may not be true, but let's face it, that fantasy is not unique to the Bible. That's the fantasy of every religion, including Greek Mythology and all the other mythologies that we no longer take seriously.

2.) It has intimate knowledge of us

This is extremely unlikely. If that were the case how did a myriad of different religions come to be in the first place?

Why are their atheists? Why didn't this God have intimate knowledge of what it would take to convince them that this God exists?

In fact, that's true of every non-believer of the Bible. Do the Jews and/or Muslims count as "believers" in the Bible? They clearly don't believe anything special about Jesus.

3.) It has a purposed work for each of us

Does that include a purpose for psychopathic killers? Does this include the purpose of member of ISIS, or the Taliban? Was Adolf Hitler fulfilling his purpose? How about the Christian Monks who wrote the Malleus Maleficarum or Witches Hammer? What that this God's idea?

In fact, while we're at it, how about the Jewish Chief Priests who called for the brutal beating of and crucifixion of Jesus on charges of blaspheme? Were they fulfilling their purpose? Did they get an "A" on their divine report card?

4.) It has equip us to achieve those purposes

What purposes? No God ever told me what my purpose was in life. In fact, I started out to become a biological research engineer. I wanted to research viruses and work on ways to cure or prevent them. Due to circumstances that I felt were beyond my control I ended up dropping that quest and became a research physicist instead. Neither of these desires seemed to me to be inspired by a God.

In fact, the first one where I was considering researching cures for viruses was to actually fight against disease. Why would a God have created all those nasty viruses in the first place?

5.) It will judge us based on our fulfillment of these purposes

How can we be "judged" on whether or not we fulfilled a purpose we were never even told we had? That would hardly be "fair", or "just". In fact, that would be a God that we can't trust at all. How could you trust a God who is going to judge you on something that you don't even know you're supposed to be doing?

And whatever happened to "morality"? I thought the Bible was originally about being judged on morality, not on fulfilling some imagined individual purpose (which the Bible never claims).

But with Christianity even morality was tossed out the window. Now in Christianity all that matter is whether or not a person believes that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Fail to believe that, and your out. Never mind any other purposes or moral deeds you may have achieved.

I think your assessment of the Bible is simply unrealistic, as well as being non-biblical.

I was a research physicist for the bulk of my life. I'm retired now. I have absolutely no clue whether that was the "purpose" that some divine creator had in mind. If it was, then I did it by pure accident, not because I was trying to fulfill some divine purpose.

Therefore if I get an "A" on my divine report card it will be purely by accident.

On the other hand if I fail it will only be because I had absolutely no clue what this divine creator had supposedly wanted me to do. And therefore my failure will be an absolute shock and surprise to me.

Would that be a Creator that I could "Trust"?

Clearly not.

[Lionel20]

The core of the Bible to me at least is:

1.) There's a eternal power
2.) It has intimate knowledge of us
3.) It has a purposed work for each of us
4.) It has equip us to achieve those purposes
5.) It will judge us based on our fulfillment of these purposes

That's a nice little dream, but is it realistic?

Let's take these one at a time.

1.) There's a eternal power

That may or may not be true, but let's face it, that fantasy is not unique to the Bible. That's the fantasy of every religion, including Greek Mythology and all the other mythologies that we no longer take seriously.

2.) It has intimate knowledge of us

This is extremely unlikely. If that were the case how did a myriad of different religions come to be in the first place?

Why are their atheists? Why didn't this God have intimate knowledge of what it would take to convince them that this God exists?

In fact, that's true of every non-believer of the Bible. Do the Jews and/or Muslims count as "believers" in the Bible? They clearly don't believe anything special about Jesus.

3.) It has a purposed work for each of us

Does that include a purpose for psychopathic killers? Does this include the purpose of member of ISIS, or the Taliban? Was Adolf Hitler fulfilling his purpose? How about the Christian Monks who wrote the Malleus Maleficarum or Witches Hammer? What that this God's idea?

In fact, while we're at it, how about the Jewish Chief Priests who called for the brutal beating of and crucifixion of Jesus on charges of blaspheme? Were they fulfilling their purpose? Did they get an "A" on their divine report card?

4.) It has equip us to achieve those purposes

What purposes? No God ever told me what my purpose was in life. In fact, I started out to become a biological research engineer. I wanted to research viruses and work on ways to cure or prevent them. Due to circumstances that I felt were beyond my control I ended up dropping that quest and became a research physicist instead. Neither of these desires seemed to me to be inspired by a God.

In fact, the first one where I was considering researching cures for viruses was to actually fight against disease. Why would a God have created all those nasty viruses in the first place?

5.) It will judge us based on our fulfillment of these purposes

How can we be "judged" on whether or not we fulfilled a purpose we were never even told we had? That would hardly be "fair", or "just". In fact, that would be a God that we can't trust at all. How could you trust a God who is going to judge you on something that you don't even know you're supposed to be doing?

And whatever happened to "morality"? I thought the Bible was originally about being judged on morality, not on fulfilling some imagined individual purpose (which the Bible never claims).

But with Christianity even morality was tossed out the window. Now in Christianity all that matter is whether or not a person believes that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Fail to believe that, and your out. Never mind any other purposes or moral deeds you may have achieved.

I think your assessment of the Bible is simply unrealistic, as well as being non-biblical.

I was a research physicist for the bulk of my life. I'm retired now. I have absolutely no clue whether that was the "purpose" that some divine creator had in mind. If it was, then I did it by pure accident, not because I was trying to fulfill some divine purpose.

Therefore if I get an "A" on my divine report card it will be purely by accident.

On the other hand if I fail it will only be because I had absolutely no clue what this divine creator had supposedly wanted me to do. And therefore my failure will be an absolute shock and surprise to me.

Would that be a Creator that I could "Trust"?

Clearly not.

I had a long quote by quote response to this post a few days ago, but my wife mistakenly erased it. So......


The original Biblical authors in their accounts, must have been held hostage to some extent by their culture and world views. The same goes for scribes and translators that may have tampered with the original text or mistranslated. I would assume the critical thinking figures from other religions to be on a similar course: trying to understand this captivating feeling that there's something much greater than any of us, possessing the knowledge to foundational questions that have eluded all of us, such as What made this universe? Why? How does the brain create consciousness? etc.

From the subatomic level on up, our reality is far too structured and complex for there 1.) not to be a Creator 2.) for the Creator to not have purpose for the creation

I can't comment on what your purpose is, only offer my you my strong belief that one exist for the highly complicated, self-aware organisms that were are. On this planet, humans seem to have more autonomy than other creatures, the power to affect the ecosystem and living conditions in such away that it can alter the behavior of all life under it's scope (and who knows, if we learn to utilize enough energy the balance of the galaxy or galaxies). The point is, we have a choice, and I believe that is by purpose and design as well. I think that many people study their environment, there are many different ideologies, Christianity, for the most part works best for me.

[OnceConvinced]

From the subatomic level on up, our reality is far too structured and complex for there 1.) not to be a Creator 2.) for the Creator to not have purpose for the creation

Complexity is only relative to how well you understand something. The better you understand it, the less complex it becomes.

eg:

When I was 5 years old, Addition was a very complex form of Mathematics.
When I was 16 years old Addition was a piece of cake, the most basic of all maths. Basic calculus was the complex from of Mathematics.
When I was in my early 30s I went and did a computing degree. Basic Calculus was a piece of cake. Differential Calculus became the complex maths.

We look at the world, often with wonder and we can't fathom how things could possibly be, but when we understand things better, it becomes less complex to us.

The thing I find with Creationists is they tend to only look at certain parts of the universe. They marvel at all that is complex, beautiful and amazing, but refuse to look at anything that would show incompetent or even malevolent design. (Just look at Creationists documentaries and you'll see this is true). There are many things that show extremely terrible design on this planet. Some things are very ugly and horrific.

Evolution makes way more sense to me now than Creation ever did. For me choice has nothing to do with it. The thing that most closely matches what I see in reality is what I am more likely to believe.

[OnceConvinced]

In my adult years I've always had this visceral affirmation that other areas in my cerebrum could never fully make sense of. I can't shake it.

This is actually a very natural phenomenon and a "problem", I guess you could say, with the human brain. Our brains have developed in a way that cause these types of feelings. They are very easily fooled. The brain will even believe things that aren't true and stubbornly hold onto those things.

I wish I could explain it better, but if you watch documentaries like "Brain Games" and "Mind control Freaks" you will see what I'm talking about. All these "feelings" and "visceral affirmations" are completely natural brain activities. These are the things that make humans inclined to be superstitious and religious.

[Divine Insight]

The point is, we have a choice, and I believe that is by purpose and design as well. I think that many people study their environment, there are many different ideologies, Christianity, for the most part works best for me.

We have a choice to do what?

To believe in a God or not believe in a God?

Why should that be important?

Also just because Christianity works best for you doesn't mean much. Clearly Buddhism works better for a Buddhist. And atheism works better for an atheist. And do we really need to go though all the other religions? Obviously Islam seems to work very well for those who love to become terrorists in the name of Allah.

I actually have no problem with many world religions. I think Taoism and Buddhism are very nice religions. I wouldn't mind having a Taoist or Buddhist as a next door neighbor at all. I've also met many Wiccans that seem to have a very nice religion and I wouldn't mind having them as neighbors either.

I would actually prefer to have scientists as next door neighbors and especially scientists who are indeed atheists because that demonstrates that they are very clear and unbiased thinkers indeed.

We don't need to believe in a God to be a good person. In fact, religions that proclaim otherwise are clearly false. I might add that the Christian dogma (i.e. the Bible) does indeed make the false claim that non-believers cannot be good people. It does this in both the Old and New Testaments.

In fact, I hold that people who need to believe in a God in order to be good people are clearly not good people at all. Because if they wouldn't be good if they didn't believe in a God then it's crystal clear that this is indeed who they truly are.

In fact, if you stop and think about that for a moment it should bring to you a profound revelation.

Imagine that a God truly does exist, and this God cares about morality. Who then do you think this God would be more impressed by? A religion person who would not be good if they thought there was no God? Or an atheists who is good anyway simply because it's what they truly want to be in their heart?

Nothing could please a REAL GOD more than a good atheist.

A good atheist would be a clear example of a person who is genuinely good simply because it's what they want to be and for no other reason.

So if there is a "God", He/She/It/Them, would be most thrilled by good atheists than by any other humans.

Religious people who are constantly trying to appease God, and only trying to do what's right to appease God, would actually be quite pathetic to be sure.

[Goat]

The original Biblical authors in their accounts, must have been held hostage to some extent by their culture and world views. The same goes for scribes and translators that may have tampered with the original text or mistranslated. I would assume the critical thinking figures from other religions to be on a similar course: trying to understand this captivating feeling that there's something much greater than any of us, possessing the knowledge to foundational questions that have eluded all of us, such as What made this universe? Why? How does the brain create consciousness? etc.

From the subatomic level on up, our reality is far too structured and complex for there 1.) not to be a Creator 2.) for the Creator to not have purpose for the creation

How do you know our realty is far too structured and complex for that?? We have run computer simulations that show very complex structures can be arrived at by the interactions with very simple rules. Can you show now this is not the argument from ignorance.??