Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator.

[Zzyzx]

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From another thread

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

I await the evidence.

Question for debate: Is the evidence undeniable and scientific (and compelling / convincing) or is it just more of the same stuff that has been presented ad nausea?

[Bust Nak]

So if I say: "There were 20 people in the crowd, and all the 20 in the crowd were walking!" but this wouldn't necessarily mean that "Everyone in the crowd was walking" ??

No, but it wouldn't necessarily mean that "Everyone was walking.

Not if you would understand the difference between the brain and the mind. Or the difference between the Infinite and the finite. There is no 'first cause' problem in "I Am Who I Am". But there are all kinds of problems in "a speck of quantum whatever residing in nothing suddenly expanding creating space for itself to expand away from, not into"

Why you ask?

They say: "Because, just because. There is no reason, plan, or will of anyone."

Why is that a problem? Why is the alternative better?

[sand story cropped]I know you may say "sandstorms doesn't mean a creator", but I say to have sand, wind, earth etc, you have to have a Creator, unless you want to believe that a quantum speck of whatever is the creator of the quantum speck of whatever?

What made you think that? Why MUST there be a creator for sandstorms? Why MUST sand not pop out from nothing? That there is "a quantum speck of whatever" alternative means there doesn't have to be a creator.

Lets talk about infinite regress and first cause, you'll se my view has no paradoxes, it is complete, it is absolute.

So are the alternatives, there are no paradoxes in infinite regress or circular regress either.

It just sounds right because it's logical, it is what we get from scientific observation, from observing the world around us. Things just don't appear out of nowhere and inflate into a zebra, or a dog, or a human, if they did, then there is your proof. But since we design, the first thing in a real scientists mind when looking at complex organisms is that they must have been designed and created.

What is going on here? "Designed objects generally are complex. Life is complex. Therefore, Life must have been designed" does not sound right at all because it is illogical. It's the very opposite of what we observed.

... By understanding why lightning strikes, does not eliminate the need of a Creator, just as understanding how a car operates does not eliminate a designer.

Sure, which is why we never even suggested such a thing. Understanding why lightning can strike without any creative input however DOES eliminate a designer.

Our mind is infinite and eternal and we can design ideas, and come up with materials that don't even exist yet, like 'kryptonite' for instance, and it can kill Superman.

So what if we have in imagination?

Then why the big buck$$ in the "Blue-Brain Project"? Why so much effort and work in replicating something that naturally just evolves from nothing, with no plan, no purpose and no Designer?

Because knowledge is a good thing. The point is not to have a brain, but to understand how it works.

How could you even say that? And why would it be a 'cool idea'? Any idiot (generic idiot) can see the complex design in biological organisms, even as simple as a single celled bacteria is complex beyond our ability to reproduce.

Idiots opinion are not really the standard for truth for you, is it? Why do you care what a generic idiot thinks?

Well yes, it's like .. once Evolutionists like Hitler and the other Nazis believed that humans were nothing but animals, they treated them that way. Why, would you like me to compare Holocaust videos with animal slaughterhouse videos to prove my point?

That still doesn't tell me why you think treating each other with respect and love, is mutually exclusive with treating them like animals. All you are telling me is why you would think killing each other is consistent with treating them like animals. Slaughterhouse videos will not prove your point.

I can love a pig like a pet, but I can kill a pig for slaughter also, it is an animal. Now I could also love my children, but could never kill them, or slaughter them like animals.

Sure, so you treat some animals different to other animals, we all do that. So what?

Now i can understand the difficulty in putting this in proper perspective for someone who believes he and his family are nothing but evolving animals, when the time comes as it did during WWII, or in Rwanda, they could slaughter their own in laws, their own family with the same feeling/emotion as I would a pig for food.

Again so what? That doesn't mean treating people don't or can't treating each other with respect and love.

LOL that's funny .. no. That would be extremely difficult to believe, matter of fact I would have to reduce my mind to an animal-like state, and respond from instinct. "Me Grugg, me fix cell phone with my bat, then plant it in ground to get the Family Deal; phone for every member of Groggs family!"

Again, That just high light the difference between a designed object with plant life, those you can plant in the ground and get more of.

Yep, .. as long as no one trips over the power cord. But you still don't see it, the computer will create whatever it is programmed to create, if it's a Jet engine part, then that's what it makes, if another computer, or program, then that. The created creates the created that creates the created, but never ever can the created create the Creator.

A computer design a computer, that daughter computer design and create a copy of the parent computer, how is this not an example of the designed creating the creator?

Yes, you got it, there are as many minds as there are people, right? But actually it is from One Mind, a little bit of the Spirit of God goes a long way, .. well actually it goes eternally. [description of said spirit cropped]

Ok, all you have to do is prove it.

Yes, and that is free will. You can even deny you are a human and believe you are just another evolving animal, or a bird, a plane, or that you are superman.

If only you have same level of evidence for your god claims as one would have to prove that I am not a bird, a plane or superman.

[Clownboat]

Schizophrenia
(Consult a doctor if you have a medical concern.)
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to: Tell the difference between what is real and not real; Think clearly; Have normal emotional responses; Act normally in social situations.

Now be honest Clownboat, I am here only to help you OK?

Now please tell me, in the past few weeks there was a holiday here in The USA called Thanksgiving. Now just answer yes or no OK, no need for alarm, this is only a test: Have you seen families sit around a table with a roasted turkey on it, with all the dressings on the table, then all of a sudden before they take of the food STOP, .. and everyone goes silent, .. then put their hands together, bow their heads, and then one person speaks out to some entity as if it was really there listening or something and says what they call a 'prayer'?

If you did, how did you respond to this?

Your talking to a former tongue talking, drunk in the Holy Ghost street evangelizing off country (4 missions trips out of country alone) Christian. We prayed before every meal. For Thanksgiving specifically this year, such a prayer like always took place.

I didn't respond to it. I expected it. My parents are still believers and still pray before every meal. I don't understand why you are asking.

OK, great, so I'm talking to a former tongue talking, drunk in the Holy Ghost street evangelizing man, and may I ask how did you overcome these addictions?

What addictions? I'm trying to have a discussion with you, yet it seems you are responding to me while talking to another person.

Especially the lounge talking and drunk in the holy Ghost part, I heard of many who have taken their lives because these spirits (which I understand from the Bible as demons) they gave themselves up to in a drunk total abandon fashion ordered them to.

Arian, you can stop telling us about things you have heard about unless you have evidence. It would also help to establish some credibility.

How many years of therapy, or how much Lithium were you prescribed to repair the brain damage?

Arian, you are seriously starting to worry me. Where are you coming up with this stuff? Are you hearing voices right now? Are they telling you want to type. I ask in full honesty because I have never made mention of taking Lithium or having brain damage. Again, it's as if you are responding to someone else. Remember when I mentioned there were reasons to question your credibility? You're not helping.

1. What did you think of this abnormal social behavior? When/if they told you they were thanking some Spirit God, did you tell them that there was no one really there, that they were failing to recognize what is real?

Of course not. My parents don't debate on a site like this with me so I try my best to let them be except when I notice them causing harm to others.

Harm to others, like you did when you went out on the streets in a drunk stupor led by divining spirits.

This is as close as I have ever come to report a post in all my time here. You should be ashamed.

Yes, this is what I am asking, how did you get rid of these spirits in your head?

I have never had spirits in my head arian. First you call me a drunk being led by divining spirits, and now I actually had/have spirits in my head? Shame on you.

Was it through a series of exorcisms, drug therapy, psycho therapy, mental hospitalization, .. what?

Arian... I wish I could hold your hand when I tell you this,... but everything I experienced had a natural explanation. None of it was real. Even as a believer, I never thought I had spirits in my head. I have never heard audible voices nor seen demons not matter how many time you falsely accuse me.

Please tell me you got some help, because I have seen what calling upon these spirits can do to people. Actually I can even show you actual videos taken of entire congregations under the spell, it is truly frightening! Jim Jones and other holy-rollers are also good examples of the long lasting and often fatal consequences of this mental illness unless you get help!

Again, I would hold your hand if I could. Spirits aren't real. Everything had a natural explanation. There were no spells being cast or anything like that.

Lil tip for ya. It is much more polite and rule abiding to ask if you think someone might be suffering from a mental illness or what have you. It is not appropriate to make such empty accusations.

You need to get on the same page though. A claim that demons are real, that they have been seen and heard is not similar to someone praying to a god concept. Not even close Arian. If at Thanksgiving my mother claimed to see/hear demons, I would have been concerned and would have encourage her to seek mental health.

On the same page? So jumping up and down with raised arms speaking gibberish, sometimes for a long time non-stop, running up and down the isles of the church, house or on the streets praying to a god-concept is OK with you? How do you know you were not calling on demons Clownboat?

When everyone is doing it, you feel left out not doing it. THAT DOES NOT MAKE DEMONS OR SPIRITS REAL. I never felt the real presence of any spirits or demons, nor was I ever drunk in the Holy Ghost for real. I suspect that no one ever has been either. Uncomfortably close to a shaman whipping himself up in a frenzy. Also something I don't believe has anything to do with spirits. If I could pretend, why couldn't they?

Here, please tell me who you and your parents prayed to? Was it some divine beings in the supernatural realm?

Normally, to Father God in the name of Jesus. "Father God, I come to you in the name of Jesus"....

If so, then I really have to warn you that those beings were demons.

I understand that you claim to hear and see demons. That does not make them real though. I also understand that they may seem very real to you, which also doesn't make them a reality.

It's right there in the Bible, I have shown this many times, and they are real.

This is the evidence you use? You quote from the Bible to someone who does not view the Bible as an authority. I hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.

They enter and take over your mind, and unless you get rid of them, they will remain to haunt you rest of your life.

Hold my hand... demons and spirits are not real. Say it with me. The voices and possible hallucinations are real, but not the spirits themselves. (Obviously this is not something I can prove).

The signs are, .. for people who are possessed (or mentally ill, you can pick whatever you want to call it) that they approach people telling them they are sick, and then pretending to cast the demons out of them, or try to convince people that they can heal them. They sometimes suggest the person take powerful meds, and even to the point of giving them cyanide, or other poisons which will "free them".

Is this credible, or did you or some voices come up with it? I'm serious.

Don't mistake praying to a god concept with actual claims of seeing/hearing demons. Anyone can pray to a god concept, but personally, the only people I witness having seen/heard actual demons are people with mental health issues.

Like I said Clownboat, you can call it what you like, but demon possession is real. These possessed people believe they are praying to a god-concept, but in reality they are being led by Satan, these demons that they have abandoned their reasoning to. Now I know they are telling you that they are not real, that everyone else is possessed instead of you and all kinds of lies, but these spirits will not leave on their own, they only make people believe they did once they see that the person has denied God all together. They can change character, and go along with you as long as you keep denying your Creator. And I have read some of the things you said against God, the Bible and especially Jesus Christ, and I'm afraid my friend that you are being lied to.

And here is why you are wrong.
You claim I'm listening to demons and that these demons I'm listening to are telling me not to believe that they are real. There is a huge lack of common sense with what you claim.

You see I never seen Angels with wings and bright white dresses, with a halo around their heads, or heard any of them talk to me. I seen a meteor like UFO with my co worker pass between us, and it didn't speak, just flew by us several times. It was years before I figured out that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm.
I have never prayed in strange tongues, men did help me when I was young up till I was 12 years old and saved me from all kinds of danger. I did notice that they always just seemed to disappear, but not as I was looking at them. They would take me to safety, or tell me what to do to get to safety.

Gasp! Back to square one it seems.
Arian, have you ever taken Lithium or suspected you suffer from any mental health issue?.

Now I know that they'll be telling you not to believe me,

You mean the demons that I don't believe in will tell me this while also telling me that they are real. You do realize I would have to listen and understand these demons in order to take them seriously, which would make it awfully hard to then not believe that they are real? Never mind, I'll assume you don't understand this since we are now on the 2nd installment of this nonsensical claim.

and to fight to the end, twist the truth if you have to, as long as you can somehow discredit what I say, but i promise i will pry for you and your family before something really bad happens to them.

You discredit yourself IMO, I see no need to help in that area.
Please don't speak about my family though, I'm not sure if this is meant as a threat or not, but threats to my family and friends are not something I can take lightly. For this reason I just left the Facebook Debate Christianity and Religion user group.

They seem like very nice people, sincere in what they believe in, but I'm telling you, you should tell them to look in the Bible and if they pray to divine beings and speak divinations, they are worshiping demons.

Hold my hand... never mind.

Don't be too arrogant my friend, there is no lasting reward in fighting against the truth.

Thanks, I'll try not to be too arrogant. What arrogant # is appropriate to shoot for? 7? 8.5?

Thus the reason I asked for clarification from you.
Again, I would not be surprised to find out a dentist works on teeth, or that a lawyer practices law, or that someone dealing with schizophrenia has seen/heard demons (along with other claims of course).

This may be a surprise to you but I have seen lawyers and dentists jump up and down and run babbling in a drunk-like stupor in this one Church of Christ I went to for a while. There were mechanics, doctors, nurses, rich and poor, big ones little ones, black ones and even brown ones, they all gave themselves up to these divining spirits, some even screaming, shaking, .. man, after this one Sundays act, me and my younger brother quit going there, we felt it just wasn't safe there anymore. Even though after the takeover they all seemed to have returned to normal nice people.

Seeing people do this should be expected. Shamans have been tricking people this way for hundreds of years. Seeing or hearing demons is not and that is where you don't seem able to see the differences.

So you are OK with your family talking to people who are not really there? I don't get it?

Trust me, if a family member was debating me on a debate site and claimed that they saw/heard demons, I would not be OK with it.

Do you see this often, .. you know, people, entire families of apes praying to no-one-there, talking to him/them?

Since I left the church, I see this much less often.

But you still see people talking to no one there, right?

Praying to a god concept and claiming to hear voices/see demons is not the same thing.

So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay?

I'll take that as an admission.

We have a country full of them, and you my friend is a minority. An entire country of serious mental ill people, off their drugs and here you are the few, the proud, the one who denies the whole thing, an atheist. Do you sometimes feel like your in the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"?

I'm not an atheist, but don't start being accurate now on my behalf.

They claim that this Microwave background Radiation camera can look billions of years into the past, and has detected the remaining presence of the Creator, well whatever remained of the Creator Big-bang, so maybe as people are praying, it could detect the Creator which would conclude that they are not really crazy, or suffering from serious schizophrenic delusions?

Who claims this, the demons you see and hear?

I mean do you think it's a healthy idea to just let your parents confuse reality like that? That's why I'm asking if you tried at least to prove to yourself that no one is really there, then if you are convinced that there is no one there, then the next best thing is to commit them to some institution, or make them take their meds, you know, like you are hinting on committing me yet you never even met me in public. Have you ever seen me with raised arms running around speaking in some frightening gibberish language which I claim is speaking to some divine beings in the supernatural realm? I am speaking science here revealing our Creator, yet something inside your head is telling you to get me on some serious brain damage-drugs.

Must be the demons talking since I have not suggested you take any brain damage drugs.

You suggested schizophrenia, and if i was taking Lithium to cure my mental illness that you diagnosed were from me mentioning things I just listed above.

Please show where I suggested such a thing or kindly retract your false accusation.

Please tell me what differences do you see between my scientific explanation of the meteor-like smoke UFO I've seen with my own eyes and if I was detailing you on my last acid trip?

You would first need to make a scientific explanation.

I don't take much of what you say seriously for many reasons, Lithium nor mental health issues are the reason.

Yet you suggested these to me!?

Please show where I made this suggestion you accuse me of or kindly retract this claim.

I am showing you how easily I could diagnose Big bang and Evolutionary scientist with the same delusional diagnosis you diagnosed me with.

Why, do scientist claim to see/hear demons? Please evidence what you suggest.

arian claims to have seen a meteor-like smoke zoom past him and disappear, and says it was a demon that attacked him.

Arian is lying, not sure if on purpose or by mistake though, but to clarify, Arian was asked:
- "Have you observed any supernatural entities in the world around you?"
His reply was not what he claims above it was: "You mean demons, .. yes."

All of a sudden when we consider Walt Disney the Biblical claim of "talking donkey" is no longer that far fetched is it? Maybe not even schizophrenic?

Hold my hand... donkeys don't talk either, no matter what you say about Walt Disney.

I have been giving examples of my claim, "The Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of The Creator", showing how He IS God, but you keep bringing in mental illness, and suggest Lithium. So unless you guys are spraying Lithium into the air with chem-trails, millions like Disney, Picasso will be left untreated!

You need to stop lying. I asked about a mental health issue and Lithium, I made not such suggestion.

But not to worry, the treatment is delivered so thick that people can actually taste it, I can, my entire family can, and I'm sure that even the Illuminated ones like Marshal Applewhite can also. Better get them Nike shoes ready!

Come back arian... come back.

With all the sincerity I can muster, please leave threats about my family out of our discussions.

[Danmark]

As a scientifically minded person, I can ONLY go by what I can observe, which is the world around me.

Have you observed any supernatural entities in the world around you?

You mean demons, .. yes.

I believe that this clarification is very important after such a claim:
- Do you take Lithium and suffer from Schizophrenia?

Your answer will not prove your statement one way or the other, but if either are a "yes", it should be known so readers can evaluate your claim.

Thanks for your honesty.

Schizophrenia
(Consult a doctor if you have a medical concern.)
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to: Tell the difference between what is real and not real; Think clearly; Have normal emotional responses; Act normally in social situations.

Now be honest Clownboat, I am here only to help you OK?
....

Moderator Intervention
Please, Clownboat and Arian, do not suggest or question whether your fellow debater has a mental disorder. If you are truly interested or "want to help" you can do so in a private message.
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[arian]

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I seen a meteor like UFO with my co worker pass between us, and it didn't speak, just flew by us several times. It was years before I figured out that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm.

Is this your "evidence" for a claim of seeing "demons?" You saw something that may have been a meteor and years later "FIGURE OUT that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm."

I said "it looked like a meteor" .. the shape, .. lol See, you do have a good sense of humor.

men did help me when I was young up till I was 12 years old and saved me from all kinds of danger. I did notice that they always just seemed to disappear, but not as I was looking at them. They would take me to safety, or tell me what to do to get to safety.

Were those men "demons" or something else? What did you "figure out" about them?

No, as I said: "They were men" like you and me, no different, even their clothes hair, shaved, talk and everything else was like you and me, .. well not old, they looked to be in their 30's, .. every one I've seen.

It is from all the years of learning, putting things together that I have come to the conclusion who they may have been. You know, a little like Evolutionist watching fossils and come up with a conclusion that the lizard fossil evolved to that bird fossil, .. like that.

But you still see people talking to no one there, right? So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay?

Some have mental problems, some have vivid imagination, some have been convinced or indoctrinated to believe that invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities influence human lives. It may be difficult to distinguish between those conditions.

I agree, this is why I want evidence of the Spiritual, and have learned to distinguish between good and bad spirits, visible or not. As I said: "My faith is built on substance with evidence", I mean I don't just believe that some invisible supernatural force like gravity exists just because Newton said so, I need some scientific proof. So far IMHO his description of gravity is spot on, so as far as for now, I believe in gravity.

Have you ever seen me with raised arms running around speaking in some frightening gibberish language which I claim is speaking to some divine beings in the supernatural realm?

We have not seen you in person but have seen what you write. "Gibberish" is your term but it may apply.

No, .. no you guys haven't seen me in person (not that I know of anyways), but that's not my fault, I have suggested meeting with my fellow debaters many times before.

And yes, I understand that most of the things I write about may seem 'gibberish' to you, and there are many reasons for that; and how you value my Undeniable Scientific evidence of The Creator reveals that.

I guess Newton would have had some hard criticisms of him babbling on about some invisible force in this so called New Modern Physics Quantum World Age, where everything is based on observable facts, .. like Evolution for one, watching fossils change from one species into another, .. black holes sucking up planets/stars and even entire galaxies, also the in-depth study of dark matter, gray matter, working on different kinds of Big bangs and such!

I am speaking science

Perhaps you THINK you are "speaking science" but those of us who know something of science disagree.

Changing the meaning of science to science fiction does not mean people can no longer observe the world around them, and have to accept only what is told to them by the science fiction writers, or them long, long time ago fairytale writers.

Thanks but no thanks, I demand the old scientific proof that has both substance and scientific evidence, not some religious doctrine that I must accept or else my mental state will be in question. I mean we're almost to that point already, like the 9-11 attacks; the fire downed the Twin Towers, the people standing in the windows of the supposed 2.500 degree heat that melted the steel that collapsed the buildings, .. and the powder-like asphalt from the towers caused building 7 to collapse also. You know, because we said so and we are scientists and have a Telescope named LUCIFER.

here revealing our Creator,

You CLAIM to have "indisputable scientific evidence of a creator" but have produced nothing more than testimonials (similar to the meteor story above).

I know, I know, .. "no one can see the mind, so the mind doesn't exist"! So until I have some solid evidence like fossil records, or cave paintings of the mind, it remains nothing more then testimonials. And darn it, .. I didn't have the camera with me when we seen the meteor like spirit pass between us, .. how unfortunate. LOL, .. as if a video would be considered 'evidence' with all this video editing programs so readily available .. hardy-har-har arian!

yet something inside your head is telling you to get me on some serious brain damage-drugs.

That diagnosis should be left to mental health professionals.

You mean 'professionals' like the ones the 9-11 Twin Tower eye and ear witnesses were directed to? "OK, .. maybe I really did see two planes crashing into the buildings, and those explosions were just my imagination, thank you doctor, this will help me to cope with all the loss the next time I visit 'Ground Zero' in New York!"

Please tell me what differences do you see between my scientific explanation of the meteor-like smoke UFO I've seen with my own eyes and if I was detailing you on my last acid trip?

I see no difference between your totally UN-scientific "explanation" of the meteor story and your last acid trip. There may be a connection.

So 'seeing' meteor like objects flying between me and a co-worker was triggered by my mushroom experience I had years later? Oh I see, it's like the quantum gravitational wave that created the gravity, or "before time and space, IN time and space, .. created Spacetime"!?! Am I trippin'-here, or am I having flashbacks from future acid trips that I may yet have?

All of a sudden when we consider Walt Disney the Biblical claim of "talking donkey" is no longer that far fetched is it?

Equating Disney characters with the biblical talking donkey seems appropriate. They are equally far fetched and detached from reality. One difference, however, is that most people beyond childhood realize that Disney characters are imaginary – but often fail to make that distinction with bible characters. Some even insist that they have personally seen "demons."

Darn it, I knew watching all them Disney cartoons will have some mental/brainwashing-effect on my kids, and from what you are telling me, it looks like the cartoons had some serious effects on me too! Wait a minute, .. it was that Winnie the Pooh character Eeyore!

[Zzyzx]

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I seen a meteor like UFO with my co worker pass between us, and it didn't speak, just flew by us several times. It was years before I figured out that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm.

Is this your "evidence" for a claim of seeing "demons?" You saw something that may have been a meteor and years later "FIGURE OUT that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm."

I said "it looked like a meteor" .. the shape, .. lol See, you do have a good sense of humor.

Did you see a meteor, a demon, a light spot in the sky? I would venture a GUESS that you don't know what it was but later "concluded" that it was a "demon" with no supporting evidence at all (outside your own imagination). Correct?

Notice that when I am guessing about something, I clearly identify it as such.

men did help me when I was young up till I was 12 years old and saved me from all kinds of danger. I did notice that they always just seemed to disappear, but not as I was looking at them. They would take me to safety, or tell me what to do to get to safety.

Were those men "demons" or something else? What did you "figure out" about them?

No, as I said: "They were men" like you and me, no different, even their clothes hair, shaved, talk and everything else was like you and me, .. well not old, they looked to be in their 30's, .. every one I've seen.

Okay, the "demons" you "saw" appeared to be thirty year old men. What distinguished them from other thirty-year old men (who are not demons)?

It is from all the years of learning, putting things together that I have come to the conclusion who they may have been.

Before getting sidetracked again and again, kindly tell us what you concluded and why you reached that conclusion – based on what evidence.

But you still see people talking to no one there, right? So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay?

Some have mental problems, some have vivid imagination, some have been convinced or indoctrinated to believe that invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities influence human lives. It may be difficult to distinguish between those conditions.

I agree, this is why I want evidence of the Spiritual,

Several of us have asked what is the evidence to which you refer. So far all that has been presented is personal / emotional / psychological testimonials and conjectures. Is there more?

and have learned to distinguish between good and bad spirits, visible or not.

Kindly describe the means by which "good spirits" can be distinguished from "bad spirits."

As I said: "My faith is built on substance with evidence",

Before getting distracted once again, kindly present the evidence to which you refer.

No, .. no you guys haven't seen me in person (not that I know of anyways), but that's not my fault, I have suggested meeting with my fellow debaters many times before.

If you are sincere in wanting to meet fellow debaters you can accept my invitation to visit Arkansas. When will you arrive at the Little Rock airport?

And yes, I understand that most of the things I write about may seem 'gibberish' to you, and there are many reasons for that; and how you value my Undeniable Scientific evidence of The Creator reveals that.

When "undeniable scientific evidence" consists of personal testimonials, opinions and conjecture I DO consider it gibberish. If you have anything to present that is actually scientific kindly do so (before getting sidetracked yet again).

I am speaking science

Perhaps you THINK you are "speaking science" but those of us who know something of science disagree.

Changing the meaning of science to science fiction does not mean people can no longer observe the world around them, and have to accept only what is told to them by the science fiction writers, or them long, long time ago fairytale writers.

If you are now admitting that what you present is science fiction, I do not disagree.

Thanks but no thanks, I demand the old scientific proof that has both substance and scientific evidence,

Okay. Let's keep it simple. Present your "scientific" evidence that demons exist. That you saw some men and decided they were demons (or whatever) is decidedly NOT scientific by any stretch of the imagination. (Before getting sidetracked yet again).

here revealing our Creator,

You CLAIM to have "indisputable scientific evidence of a creator" but have produced nothing more than testimonials (similar to the meteor story above).

I know, I know, .. "no one can see the mind, so the mind doesn't exist"! So until I have some solid evidence like fossil records, or cave paintings of the mind, it remains nothing more then testimonials. And darn it, .. I didn't have the camera with me when we seen the meteor like spirit pass between us, .. how unfortunate. LOL, .. as if a video would be considered 'evidence' with all this video editing programs so readily available .. hardy-har-har arian!

Okay. You claim to have seen a meteor-like object and concluded it was a "demon" (or whatever).

Granting, for the moment, that you actually saw a "meteor-like object", kindly present evidence that it was a "demon" (or whatever you think it was).

yet something inside your head is telling you to get me on some serious brain damage-drugs.

That diagnosis should be left to mental health professionals.

You mean 'professionals' like the ones the 9-11 Twin Tower eye and ear witnesses were directed to?

I mean, specifically, that psychiatrists who are trained to deal with such things be the ones to make a diagnosis. (Without getting distracted yet again).

Please tell me what differences do you see between my scientific explanation of the meteor-like smoke UFO I've seen with my own eyes and if I was detailing you on my last acid trip?

I see no difference between your totally UN-scientific "explanation" of the meteor story and your last acid trip. There may be a connection.

So 'seeing' meteor like objects flying between me and a co-worker was triggered by my mushroom experience I had years later?

"Triggered" is YOUR term, not mine. I do observe, however, that people who ingest certain mushrooms or other substances often report hallucinations. (Without getting distracted yet again).

All of a sudden when we consider Walt Disney the Biblical claim of "talking donkey" is no longer that far fetched is it?

Equating Disney characters with the biblical talking donkey seems appropriate. They are equally far fetched and detached from reality. One difference, however, is that most people beyond childhood realize that Disney characters are imaginary – but often fail to make that distinction with bible characters. Some even insist that they have personally seen "demons."

Darn it, I knew watching all them Disney cartoons will have some mental/brainwashing-effect on my kids, and from what you are telling me, it looks like the cartoons had some serious effects on me too! Wait a minute, .. it was that Winnie the Pooh character Eeyore!

Perhaps one would be well advised to consult sources other than fantasy cartoons and comic books if they are interested in presenting evidence in debate.

[arian]

.

I seen a meteor like UFO with my co worker pass between us, and it didn't speak, just flew by us several times. It was years before I figured out that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm.

Is this your "evidence" for a claim of seeing "demons?" You saw something that may have been a meteor and years later "FIGURE OUT that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm."

I said "it looked like a meteor" .. the shape, .. lol See, you do have a good sense of humor.

Did you see a meteor, a demon, a light spot in the sky? I would venture a GUESS that you don't know what it was but later "concluded" that it was a "demon" with no supporting evidence at all (outside your own imagination). Correct?

Hey Z old buddy, what's your hang up? Come on man, let's debate OK? Please? This is no longer debating my friend.

Here again, slower this time:
We, me and my coworker seen a two foot long, grayish meteor like UFO that came from above and when we seen it, it was about 40 feet away closing in on us.
We seen it go right between us, went past us and over the fence about 30 feet away,
turned around making a small loop (didn't suddenly just stop and change directions like the UFO light sightings we've seen videoed over the years) and flew between us again.
Then it went over the fence the direction it first came from, again it made a small loop, turned around and came between us again the third time, and then it disappeared.

The buzzer rang and we quit playing basketball and went back to work.
As I started my machine, I was taken over by a terrible rage, and as we stood in the isles waiting for the minute or so to warm up the CNC machines again, I was telling my co-workers that I will smash that annoying, backstabbing little Asian (everyone agreed he was annoying and a backstabber, that's who he was, not something that I felt at the moment)
They stared at me, and cautiously, gently talked me out of doing anything stupid, and slowly I cooled down. Yes, I felt my whole body inflamed, as if high fever suddenly took me over, and then I literally 'cooled' down.

About an hour later, after I cooled down and recollected myself and we were all back to work, the incident we saw came to mind. I quickly went over to my co-worker and started to ask him what the hell that was that we seen.
As I brought this up, his continence changed, his hands trembled and then he turned and told me: "I don't want to talk about it!"
I asked again: "But man, that was weird don't you think? I mean it flew right between us, then over the fence and, .."

But this time with sternness he told me right to my face: "Look, .. I really don't want to talk about it! OK?!"

This IS what happened, .. it is NOT what "I think happened, it is not what I think I've seen, but it IS what happened and exactly what I've seen.

But I have yet to see, or read a science news report of a Higgs boson, or a speck of quantum string, or gravity suddenly inflate and create a universe, and yet they claim Higgs bosons, specks of gravity and string as in string theory are everywhere.
The problem I see right off the bat is that the conditions of them Big-banging is wrong. They need to take these quantum specks outside our universe, into 'nothing' and they should pop universes into being like pop-corn.

Now I have shown you two trains of thought, which one sounds actual and which sounds questionable Z? Be honest now!?

Notice that when I am guessing about something, I clearly identify it as such.

That is a good practice, especially when someone asks you if you are married or not, and your wife is standing right next to you. I mean saying: "Well, .. I kind of, .. I really don't know how to answer that, .. well I guess I am!?" cold get husbands to sleep on the couch for a while, right?

men did help me when I was young up till I was 12 years old and saved me from all kinds of danger. I did notice that they always just seemed to disappear, but not as I was looking at them. They would take me to safety, or tell me what to do to get to safety.

Were those men "demons" or something else? What did you "figure out" about them?

No, as I said: "They were men" like you and me, no different, even their clothes hair, shaved, talk and everything else was like you and me, .. well not old, they looked to be in their 30's, .. every one I've seen.

Okay, the "demons" you "saw" appeared to be thirty year old men. What distinguished them from other thirty-year old men (who are not demons)?

LOL, I hope you are having fun. It's times like these that it is good to be a moderator, .. ay Z? Like Mel Brooks said in one of his movies as he was walking through his garden as a king and lifting the maids skirts up, looked straight into the camera and said: "It's good to be the King!"

No Z, .. the men were men, why would I call men that came in the most critical moments of my life and helped me, demons? It's just common sense, it's simple logic, .. unless you worship Deities/demons as God! Then yes, things could get really confusing.
I am not, or no longer easily confused. When i was young and someone at a party gave me peyote mushrooms and I was seeing things, I still knew that it was the mushrooms causing the hallucinations. I know this will also shock you, but I know the difference between dreaming and when I see 2 foot long meteor-like UFO flying around me.
I don't, nor have I ever asked myself; "Am I dreaming, or is this real?"

It is from all the years of learning, putting things together that I have come to the conclusion who they may have been.

Before getting sidetracked again and again, kindly tell us what you concluded and why you reached that conclusion – based on what evidence.

It's like I described above.

But you still see people talking to no one there, right? So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay?

Some have mental problems, some have vivid imagination, some have been convinced or indoctrinated to believe that invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities influence human lives. It may be difficult to distinguish between those conditions.

I agree, this is why I want evidence of the Spiritual,

Several of us have asked what is the evidence to which you refer. So far all that has been presented is personal / emotional / psychological testimonials and conjectures. Is there more?

And I have answered over and over again; our 'mind' is spiritual. You cannot see it, I cannot see it, but we know it is there.

and have learned to distinguish between good and bad spirits, visible or not.

Kindly describe the means by which "good spirits" can be distinguished from "bad spirits."

The bad will influence you: "Go beat that sob, pulverize him! Go ahead, he deserves it!"

The Good Spirits will influence either you, if at the moment that's not possible then influences others around you saying: "Odon, you have so much going for you, do you really want to blow it because you are angry right now?"

I know, I know, now you will say: There is no 'good' or 'bad', it just depends on how each evolving animal/apes instinct drives him/it at the moment, .. or something like that.

As I said: "My faith is built on substance with evidence",

Before getting distracted once again, kindly present the evidence to which you refer.

Have you ever dreamed that you were dreaming? I have, and when I woke up from both dreams, I could tell you which one was the dream of my dream, and which was the dream, and the difference that I am awake now. It was pretty cool, and I remember telling my family about it.

What I'm saying is, that people can accept a lie as 'evidence', so I can present evidence after evidence to you (generic you) but if you have trouble distinguishing between an animal and a human, that both could be just animal, the evidence is meaningless. That person is now driven by religious indoctrinations and no longer can differentiate between real science and science fiction. They will understand things like:
"Gay" to mean homosexual and happy, and when you say "I'm gay" they will choose the meaning to that by instinct, either happy or homosexual depending how they feel at the moment. Reasoning with people like that is futile.

No, .. no you guys haven't seen me in person (not that I know of anyways), but that's not my fault, I have suggested meeting with my fellow debaters many times before.

If you are sincere in wanting to meet fellow debaters you can accept my invitation to visit Arkansas. When will you arrive at the Little Rock airport?

Are you serious Z? Please say yes? PM me, .. please?

And yes, I understand that most of the things I write about may seem 'gibberish' to you, and there are many reasons for that; and how you value my Undeniable Scientific evidence of The Creator reveals that.

When "undeniable scientific evidence" consists of personal testimonials, opinions and conjecture I DO consider it gibberish. If you have anything to present that is actually scientific kindly do so (before getting sidetracked yet again).

I'm not the one sidetracking Z, and you know that.

Tell me, from all those long explanations I gave of the difference between the 'mind/spirit' and the brain, or a mind that you guys say is the product of the brain, where do you stand so far?
Do you consider the mind the product of the brain, or a separate being, or entity (i don't know what to identify it as that we both could relate to the same way. This is like the word gay.

We never got far on my undeniable description of the existence of 'nothing' either. You kept on saying "You have no evidence" when I shown you evidence after solid scientific evidence, and described the importance of nothing, and how it looks, feels, smells, tastes, .. everything.

I am speaking science

Perhaps you THINK you are "speaking science" but those of us who know something of science disagree.

Changing the meaning of science to science fiction does not mean people can no longer observe the world around them, and have to accept only what is told to them by the science fiction writers, or them long, long time ago fairytale writers.

If you are now admitting that what you present is science fiction, I do not disagree.

OK Z, .. if you say so.

Thanks but no thanks, I demand the old scientific proof that has both substance and scientific evidence,

Okay. Let's keep it simple. Present your "scientific" evidence that demons exist. That you saw some men and decided they were demons (or whatever) is decidedly NOT scientific by any stretch of the imagination. (Before getting sidetracked yet again).

Please see above, I'm getting tired of repeating myself Z.

here revealing our Creator,

You CLAIM to have "indisputable scientific evidence of a creator" but have produced nothing more than testimonials (similar to the meteor story above).

I know, I know, .. "no one can see the mind, so the mind doesn't exist"! So until I have some solid evidence like fossil records, or cave paintings of the mind, it remains nothing more then testimonials. And darn it, .. I didn't have the camera with me when we seen the meteor like spirit pass between us, .. how unfortunate. LOL, .. as if a video would be considered 'evidence' with all this video editing programs so readily available .. hardy-har-har arian!

Okay. You claim to have seen a meteor-like object and concluded it was a "demon" (or whatever).

Granting, for the moment, that you actually saw a "meteor-like object", kindly present evidence that it was a "demon" (or whatever you think it was).

Remember how I explained that a long time later I put it all together, what we've seen, and how right after it disappeared between us that I was overcome by extreme anger, especially at work risking me getting fired? (I don't just do things like that)

Well I read up on demons in an old Book, and it is a really good book in identifying demons/deities from Angels who are still one with God. I told you of both. I'm sure you pick up some good old books for reference too!?

Z, .. how about we get back to my "Undeniable Scientific Evidence of our Creator", and see how much I know? I just touched the tip of the iceberg, I need people to ask me things, and if I can answer, you will surely find out if I'm just making it up, or if this actually makes sense?
This is why I appreciate being here, you guys question everything and you are smart. And believe it or not, but your questions are my questions, only I wasn't smart enough to come up with them. But answering them by searchin what educates me.
In church everyone just nods like cows, and sometime give out a grunt, or an Amen. Just try to speak out when you hear the Minister say something stupid?
Once I just couldn't help it and spurted out a; "Say what?" not even that loud, and you should of seen people stare at me! I wanted to slip down under the pews and crawl out of there.

I told you I am not schooled, so I look into almost everything we have talked about fresh. I mean this should be easy for intelligent people like yourself to see if I'm just B.S.'ing, or if I'm really making sense here, don't you agree?

Ask me something like: "OK arian, if our mind is of God and IS Allknowing, then how come we don't know everything like God does?"
Or, .. arian, if you say God is Spirit and has no body (neither celestial or terrestrial) and you describe Him as "The Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind "I Am Who I Am", then how did He create bodies with forms, or this physical universe? I mean it's 'so not Him'? How did He materialize His dreams, His plans when He is Eternal and Infinite and the created is finite and needs constant sustainment?
How could finite, and physical objects appear from and in the Infinite God?
Or, why do you believe that God created 'nothing' and that you believe it is a very, .. actually extremely important part of any-thing created?

yet something inside your head is telling you to get me on some serious brain damage-drugs.

That diagnosis should be left to mental health professionals.

You mean 'professionals' like the ones the 9-11 Twin Tower eye and ear witnesses were directed to?

I mean, specifically, that psychiatrists who are trained to deal with such things be the ones to make a diagnosis. (Without getting distracted yet again).

So if you were walking on the beach in California and seen some hideous unidentifiable creature wash up on shore with another head growing out of his mouth, and in agony breath his last, you would run and get a mental check up?

Please tell me what differences do you see between my scientific explanation of the meteor-like smoke UFO I've seen with my own eyes and if I was detailing you on my last acid trip?

I see no difference between your totally UN-scientific "explanation" of the meteor story and your last acid trip. There may be a connection.

So 'seeing' meteor like objects flying between me and a co-worker was triggered by my mushroom experience I had years later?

"Triggered" is YOUR term, not mine. I do observe, however, that people who ingest certain mushrooms or other substances often report hallucinations. (Without getting distracted yet again).

So do you often hear of people 'trippin' before taking acid?

All of a sudden when we consider Walt Disney the Biblical claim of "talking donkey" is no longer that far fetched is it?

Equating Disney characters with the biblical talking donkey seems appropriate. They are equally far fetched and detached from reality. One difference, however, is that most people beyond childhood realize that Disney characters are imaginary – but often fail to make that distinction with bible characters. Some even insist that they have personally seen "demons."

Darn it, I knew watching all them Disney cartoons will have some mental/brainwashing-effect on my kids, and from what you are telling me, it looks like the cartoons had some serious effects on me too! Wait a minute, .. it was that Winnie the Pooh character Eeyore!

Perhaps one would be well advised to consult sources other than fantasy cartoons and comic books if they are interested in presenting evidence in debate.

The Bible is off limit, real observed science is off limit, then what else is there to turn to Z? There is always Disney World right? Better than going to some dusty old museum and video their fossil collections that's for sure. Wait, .. I hope i didn't offend anyone by that remark, if so I'm sorry.

[KenRU]

But you still see people talking to no one there, right? So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay?

Some have mental problems, some have vivid imagination, some have been convinced or indoctrinated to believe that invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities influence human lives. It may be difficult to distinguish between those conditions.

I agree, this is why I want evidence of the Spiritual,

Several of us have asked what is the evidence to which you refer. So far all that has been presented is personal / emotional / psychological testimonials and conjectures. Is there more?

And I have answered over and over again; our 'mind' is spiritual. You cannot see it, I cannot see it, but we know it is there.

Are mind is spiritual? You draw that conclusion based (primarily) on the notion that "I cannot see it, but we know it is there".

We already know animals dream. Dogs, for example, have very vivid dreams and even act out (physically) while having them. My Husky ended up howling at 3am for almost an entire minute. When I checked on her (while she was still howling) I found her quite asleep, clearly in the midst of a very vivid dream.

So, clearly dogs and other animals have minds that think and dream (though not as complex as ours). This is shown scientifically and anecdotally.

What differentiates us then from the animals? Both have mind's. Why is ours spiritual in nature, but not an animal's?

[pizzanui]

[Replying to post 167 by KenRU]

I agree 110% with what you said. I liked your point about the undeniable fact that dogs (among other animals) have been shown to experience dreams. If I may, I'd also like to add on to that.

Recent research has shown that (are you ready for this?) Dolphins... Communicate! This is probably very old news to most. Birds, too, can communicate, as can a great number of living things. The recent discovery, however, was that Dolphins might even posess enough intelligence to give each other names.

We already know that Dolphins communicate through a series of clicks and squeaks which humans, thus far, have not been able to understand fully. However, we can analyze patterns in these messages and see how they correlate to behavior. It has been discovered that certain Dolphins seem to have a certain pattern of clicks and squeaks directed at them more often. Further, those specific Dolphins seem to respond to specific sequences of clicks and squeaks. I'm bad at explaining it, but the evidence points to the conclusion that Dolphins might even have names. We already know that Dolphins practice rape, prostitution, and have sex for pleasure, and we similarly know that ducks practice rape and certain ape species have sex for pleasure. So I ask anyone that thinks that only humans are spiritual: what on earth makes you think that?

What separates us from other creatures that exhibit a level of intelligence very similar to our own? Why is it that when humans have sex for pleasure, or practice prostitution, or rape, or kill each other, or fight, it is considered sinning while other species with similar levels of intelligence do the exact same things?

Humans are just far too self-absorbed. If we just thought outside our antiquated religious perspectives for one minute, we might be able to start having meaningful interactions with other species instead of just deciding that we should not do that because we are superior to them because some 3,000 year old book says so.

[Danmark]

We used to get a laugh out of our dog, Simon. He dreamed of chasing squirrels or whatever. It was easy to figure. He'd be sound asleep on his side as his legs made running motions accompanied by muffled 'Woofs.'

If humans have souls, dogs must too.

[arian]

But you still see people talking to no one there, right? So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay?

Some have mental problems, some have vivid imagination, some have been convinced or indoctrinated to believe that invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities influence human lives. It may be difficult to distinguish between those conditions.

I agree, this is why I want evidence of the Spiritual,

Several of us have asked what is the evidence to which you refer. So far all that has been presented is personal / emotional / psychological testimonials and conjectures. Is there more?

And I have answered over and over again; our 'mind' is spiritual. You cannot see it, I cannot see it, but we know it is there.

Our mind is spiritual? You draw that conclusion based (primarily) on the notion that "I cannot see it, but we know it is there".

Thanks again KenRU, especially for not suggesting any psychotic meds, or Priests that I could go to, to see if they could perform exorcism on me, .. lol.

There is more to it than not being able to see the mind, it is what the mind IS that proves The scientific existence of our Creator God.
What is the 'eye' without the mind?
I can close my eyes and come up with concepts I have never seen before, and design materials needed (to be able to make the concept work) that has never been invented yet.

We know a lot about the eye, the brain, where it stores what, .. but how much do we really know about the 'mind' that makes sense of all this? Another words, we could say the eye is the camera hooked up to our brain which is like the computer. The brain is recording everything the camera sees, and the computer analyzes everything the camera sees; - This is a room, there is a dog, and that over there is a couch, .. between the dogs hind legs is a flow of some yellowish liquid coming in contact with the couch, .. and so on, right?

But look at this, and just take a moment to think about this and tell me where this next response originates from? "Hey, stop that, .. bad boy! Honey (wife is not in the picture) your dog is pissing on the couch again!"

The brain does not have the ability to respond like that, the mind does.
The brain sees yellowish water coming from between the dogs hind legs, the mind responds with the dog is pissing on the couch.
The brain could not respond to the wife since the wife is not in the picture, but the mind responds to the action of 'their dog' (it's his dog too) with; "Honey, .. your dog is pissing on the couch!"

The mind cannot speak or make sound vibrations, so it sends the proper impulses to all the right places in the brain that controls all the muscles in the mouth, the lungs, the tongue, the hands and the pointing finger to do the task., to get the message across.

We already know animals dream. Dogs, for example, have very vivid dreams and even act out (physically) while having them. My Husky ended up howling at 3am for almost an entire minute. When I checked on her (while she was still howling) I found her quite asleep, clearly in the midst of a very vivid dream.

So, clearly dogs and other animals have minds that think and dream (though not as complex as ours). This is shown scientifically and anecdotally.

Yes, the way I understand it is that every 'living' creature has a little of Gods unaltered Spirit in them, the precise amount and ability after their own kind. I see this as a program specially designed for each living creature, some with more abilities, more choices and some with less. Dogs have some remarkably similar abilities, .. or how should I say, .. traits I guess, like humans do; jealousy, fear, anger, guilt, joy, sadness and even remorse when the owner dies, .. I see all this as specially designed by God in an attempt to give man something to connect with, to be entertained by. But I believe, from everything I have observed so far, that it was for man to have something 'meet', or mutual to 'connect with'. Even today, with the absence of another human partner, animals fill the void, or at least enough to get the person by.

What differentiates us then from the animals? Both have mind's. Why is ours spiritual in nature, but not an animal's?

I am so glad you asked that, and I hope more questions arise, because I myself cannot think of everything, as I said, I depend on your inquisitions, .. your questions are my questions.
It is the answers that just seem to flow to me!? Or I can actually search what I have witnessed so far in life, and see the answers in my mind. And as I explain this, you should be able to connect with this too.
So far, the ONLY thing that separates us here is religious indoctrinations, and they come in all matters, shapes and forms including what they falsely claim as observed documented science, which they could never have 'observed'.

Now remember that God is Spirit, .. in this case let's just use the more scientific term 'The Creator'.

So everything that has ever been 'created' is of, from and IN the Spirit we'll call Creator.

Now we know, and have observed 'activity' on the brain with imaging sensors like MRI's and so on. This is what interests me the most because right there we can see how the spiritual thought reacts with the physical brain.

The Creator I Am Who I Am is Spirit, he is Infinite and Eternal which means There is nothing besides or outside of Him, so He, the Creator Mind Is all there is.This is from scientific observation, or knowledge, since finite cannot be or reach infinite.

To be able to create bodies, The Creator had to take the Spirit and convert it to something else, like atoms, and whatever created beings and creatures are made of.

But HOW, since God is all there is? Can the Creator/Spirit create something that is not Him? you know, like physical things? If so, where did He get the substance, the materials from? I remember reading about 'quantum theory' and how they have observed electrons, and all that other quantum-stuff that as you magnify them they start to vanish, or start to 'loose' their physical properties and no longer seem to abide by physical laws as we know it. So a thought occurred to me that made perfect sense;

I know that nothing created can define God, or nothing of the finite could create the Infinite. I know without a doubt that there can be only One Infinite and Eternal, and since my mind fits that description everything has to be Spirit/God.
God is a Free Spirit with free will, no boundaries, no limits, not under any law or governed by anything, instead He is the Creator of these laws.

So I observed how I create?
First I dream up and design things in my mind, it all starts there. Then I use tools to create things from what is already there, and my first tool is my body which I control by the brain. I then use physical things that already exist within this universe, and then I get to it and create, make things I imagined and designed in my mind.

* But what is the physical made up of?

And here it is;

Everything created is made up of, and exists as laws, and work so well because the laws follow the rules.

* So God defined tiny parts of His spirit by laws and rules, another words He designed and defined an atom by specific laws, and everything, .. every speck that makes up that atom is only laws and exists because of the rules defined in these laws.

Once these individual laws defined an object like the atom in this case, we no longer call these laws, but it is now an atom because this atom now has a sort of personality, it is an atom rather than calling it laws.

Now use your imagination and you will see that EVERYTHING in 'creation' (not the Infinite creator) but creation, can be defined by science, and everything follows specific rules under specific laws; "This is made of these atoms, and these atoms placed in certain order make up cells which in certain order makes up a body, the earth, the Universe and so on."

Laws - Everything that is created, exist as laws.

Just as we assign laws to mathematics, where 1 is equal to 1. But we all know that we can change this, or break the rules and make 1 to mean 2, only the result of this would not make sense, we couldn't get anywhere with that because obviously it would create chaos. The number 1, or the word typed in a book one cannot and will not change, the only thing that can change this value is our mind because it has Free Will.

Man:
The body is made up of trillions upon trillions of laws, each atom, each cell, everything works together as long as they abide by the laws they were defined by. And why shouldn't they since all that exists is The Creator that made these laws.

Now here comes trouble, the little law-breakers!
God decided to create man in His own image, and the body he made of the laws that define earth/dust. This body (trillions upon trillions of individual laws) would remain exactly as the laws that govern it, but here came trouble!

God placed a tiny bit of 'His true unaltered self', that Free Will, under no law Spirit which is pure, without having boundaries rules/laws, and this pure-spirit placed within the body made up by trillions of tiny laws makes man an individual, a small god, in the image of God.

So again: What we call the physical existence is really made up of laws, and if you see man walk, run, work it is because the 'laws (atoms, cells etc.) follow the rules.

Now the spirit within man has Free Will, like God, and here is where he gets into trouble! Man, that is the spirit of man with his free-will can break the rules that governs and defines his reality (the physical). Man can direct his body to kill another person, and we know that as long as we let the rules continue existence, the physical man would live forever, but one bullet, or one hard hit on the head with a rock could break a whole bunch of rules that defines man, and kill him. This is when The Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind has to step in, and try to convince man to try to abide by the rules that make up his existence.

"Yo Cain, .. where is your brother Able?"