Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

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Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

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so I ask: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?
was there a way out for God on this one?

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ttruscott
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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #71

Post by ttruscott »

Nickman wrote:
...

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

...
Sorry. Adam sinned third in the garden. There is no way without a lot of theo-babble to make him first unless he was a sinner before he was breathed into his new human body.
Nickman wrote:Sorry but did you choose to sin on your first one? No, you were told about it later that you committed a sin just like everyone else. A huge number of people are converts to Christianity who have never even heard of sin, until you tell them. How did they follow in Adam's footsteps if they never even knew?
I repressed my memories of my pre-earth sin in sheol like every other sinner on earth. Doesn't mean I can't learn about them now...

You seem to be talking again like I'm talking about being born human - may I remind you I'm not ? Everyone chose our sin before the creation of the physical universe not some murky time between 3 and 9 yrs old on earth, sigh.

Lack of knowledge of these things proves nothing because Romans 1 tells us we all know the truth but we repress it because we love sin more.

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #72

Post by OnceConvinced »

shnarkle wrote: [Replying to post 52 by OnceConvinced]

What terrible parents we would be if we kicked our small children out onto the streets the first time they stole from the cookie jar.

shnarkle: That's not what the story indicates. God made provision for them; he made them clothes to wear and a place to live outside of a place that they clearly weren't ready to live.
God cursed Adam and Eve with troubles. He cast them out of the Garden. Banned them from it. All they did was eat from a tree, which God put there to test them with. If I put a cookie jar next to my child's bed and told them not to eat from it and they did, and I kicked them out of the house... even if I arranged alternate accommodation for them, it would still show a lack of love, not to mention self control on my part. It would be going way overboard.

I could understand a parent sending their kid away to another place if they were out of control and not willing to be reasoned with, but Adam and Eve were not like that. They were even repentant of what they had done afterwards.

As they had no knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree, they pretty much were as little children. They were naïve and trusting. There is no way God can claim to be a God of love, the way he treated Adam and Eve.

Fortunately now, I no longer see this story as being a true story. I see the whole Creation and Fall of Man story as being a compilation of "Just so" stories.

I even wrote a critique about it on my website:

http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... ll-of-man/
shnarkle wrote: It's kinda like people who come into a lot of money and don't know how to manage it with any maturity. A responsible guardian would take it away from them until they could be trusted with it. They wouldn't just let them throw it all away on junk. The same thing with handing a child a firearm. One waits until an individual has a level of maturity to handle it without doing any serious damage. If that time comes and a mature adult doesn't behave as he should then the gun is taken away from them. Maybe that's not the best analogy due to the baggage people give to guns so we could use forks instead.
I can see your point, but there are still problems with this, because God must have known... being God... that Adam and Eve weren't ready for the Garden when he created them. Why create them and put them in the garden if he knew they were unworthy?

It would mean that God had to be ignorant of the fact Adam and Even would fail, but even so, it would be silly to put a temptation in there that doesn't need to be in there and then based on them failing that temptation, deem them unworthy.

I would never put my children through something like that.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #73

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 72 by OnceConvinced]

"All they did was eat from a tree"

shnarkle: From a literal interpretation I see your point, I just don't see much point to the story.

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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #74

Post by OnceConvinced »

ttruscott wrote: I applaud your insight into GOD setting them up
No insight needed. It's quite obvious from the story, especially if God is all knowing and omniscient as many Christians claim him to be.
but I must reject your reasoning about its meaning. HE set them up with a command HE knew that as sinners they could not keep to prove to them (who were not ashamed so rejected being called sinners) they could not keep it ! which proved they were indeed naked / sinful and should be ashamed!!! Proving their sin so they can feel guilt and repent is hardly a bad thing!!!
That may be one way of looking at it. That God was proving a point. Reminds me of that TV Sitcom "My wife and kids" where the father goes to ridiculous lengths to make a point to his kids, points he could have made without going to such lengths.

The thing is this is not just a loving father trying to make a point. He goes on to unleash his wrath on them...

ttruscott wrote: And what are their punishments?
Being forced out of a beautiful place - a paradise.
Pain at child birth
Living on a world which is mainly hostile to humans.
Hardships (of which are numerous and sometimes sadistic)
Having to deal with illnesses
Having to deal with deadly virus and other natural horrors.
Condemnation of all future generations.
Having to deal with the horrors that Satan has unleashed.
Death
ttruscott wrote: He does not say HE is cursing her like HE says HE is doing to the serpent, HE is reminding her of the suffering she has caused so many others by her choice.
Ok, don't call them curses then. Simply call them God's cruel and calculated wrath if you'd rather.
ttruscott wrote: IF this is true, it also explains why GOD put her under her husband.
This is simply my opinion and of course means nothing in debate, but I see the reason why woman were put under their husband is because it was the men making the rules and writing the bible and they wanted to keep women as second class citizens. What better way to do that than make the woman out to be one of the villains in the fall of man story.
ttruscott wrote: This fits the model of the loving disciplinary parent that you have in mind...you just don't know the meaning of what happened to them,
I don't see your take on this as showing a loving parent. Only a game-playing parent who enjoys watching his children squirm.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #75

Post by ttruscott »

OnceConvinced wrote:
shnarkle wrote: [Replying to post 52 by OnceConvinced]

What terrible parents we would be if we kicked our small children out onto the streets the first time they stole from the cookie jar.

shnarkle: That's not what the story indicates. God made provision for them; he made them clothes to wear and a place to live outside of a place that they clearly weren't ready to live.
God cursed Adam and Eve with troubles. He cast them out of the Garden. Banned them from it. All they did was eat from a tree, which God put there to test them with.
That is so not right - it explains the situation but from a backwards and opposite pov from GOD...

HE did not curse them with troubles but blessed them with salvation. Without opening their eyes they would never have been ashamed (repentant) and never had received their skin coats, symbolic of the salvation by the death of the Lamb.

Opening their eyes was a wonderful thing for them (and anyone) and having to 'trick' them by giving them a law that as sinners HE knew they could never keep, their eyes were opened to the fact that they could not keep HIS laws and therefor must be sinful as He had told them (which they rejected, hence their lack of shame - this is the effect of becoming enslaved by evil; no matter what evil you choose, you think it is the righteous thing to do) and they became aware of their need to repent...
OnceConvinced wrote:As they had no knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree, they pretty much were as little children. They were naïve and trusting. There is no way God can claim to be a God of love, the way he treated Adam and Eve.
Unless of course they rejected GOD's designation of them as sinful...naked but not ashamed, an obvious effect of being sinful, and their lack of knowledge waa instead a rejection of the truth, a characteristic of all sin.
OnceConvinced wrote:I can see your point, but there are still problems with this, because God must have known... being God... that Adam and Eve weren't ready for the Garden when he created them. Why create them and put them in the garden if he knew they were unworthy?
Because the garden and the whole earth was the place for the redemption of their sins, their repentance and rebirth not enslaved by the addictive properties of evil...

Your question assumes they were created innocent in the garden but my answers all reflect that they had an existence before the creation of the physical universe (earth) and had become sinful during the time between their creation and the garden. The earth was create to be the place of their redemption.

The garden was not for the perfect but for sinners who rejected that they were not perfect. As soon as their eyes were opened to their nakedness, which they had before they ate and which must be a symbol for sin as we know nudity is not sinful, they became ashamed - a very very good thing!
OnceConvinced wrote:It would mean that God had to be ignorant of the fact Adam and Even would fail,
...or that HE knew that as already fallen they would fail and thus be brought to repentance and redemption by the blood of the Lamb. "Do not eat" was a command and as you know, no one is saved by keeping a command because the command was only given to prove we could not keep it and therefore needed grace.
OnceConvinced wrote:I would never put my children through something like that.
No sir, nor me because it is a misrepresentation of what GOD put Adam and Eve through to bring them to HIS Son.

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #76

Post by ttruscott »

OnceConvinced wrote:
...

I don't see your take on this as showing a loving parent. Only a game-playing parent who enjoys watching his children squirm.
They were not little children nor of an immature intellect. They were adults involved in theological discussions with a person they thought was trying to help them but were blinded to his deviousness. They were adult and experienced enough to be gardeners and to know GOD and accept HIS work for them.

So, allowing them as adult children to bull ahead in their obstinacy that they had no need to repent to allow them to go deeper into obvious sin so as to help them to come to the realization they were indeed sinners so they could repent, is a wonderful service to them.

This rendering of the meaning of the story fits the attributes of GOD much better than does the orthodox interpretation as is proven by the use of their interpretation to malign GOD as evil and twisted in HIS dealings with them and the attitude they were being tortured is a blasphemous holdover from the orthodox tradition.

I'm always surprised at the fierceness of atheists against this new interpretation until I remember that they have a vested interest in this perfect venue of attack against orthodoxy and would have to develop new arguments if my view becomes popular...a straw man attack is better than no attack at all I guess.

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #77

Post by shnarkle »

ttruscott wrote:
Nickman wrote:
...

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

...
Sorry. Adam sinned third in the garden. There is no way without a lot of theo-babble to make him first unless he was a sinner before he was breathed into his new human body.
Hey Ted, I'm not quite following your argument here. Are you saying that we sin because we are sinners, or that we are sinners because we sin? It sounds like you're saying that sin entered the world through someone other than Adam. Who are you referring to?

Eternity

Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #78

Post by Eternity »

[Replying to post 5 by cnorman18]

Thanks, I appreciate the Jewish point of view. Actually, how is it that Christians don't accept the Jewish take on the Jewish Testament? In my understanding, the NT is filled with JT (OT) quotes. If one is to understand the NT they must use the OT to define exactly what NT authors were saying. Then, and only then, can the NT be understood.

I liked your Jewish take on Adam and Eve. I see this epic tale describing Creation as man's separation from the Creator. For Christians, I would put our temporal existence as our separation from God's spiritual essence. With Genesis 1: 27 man is created in the image of God, God's Spirit. Our creation (which I do not believe in but refer to only for purposes of identifying the Adam and Eve story,) all creation (the universe,) is our existential existence. We are no longer with God but, separated from God.

This begins a new story of the Fall and this affects how Christianity identifies with their religion.

Eternity

Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #79

Post by Eternity »

[Replying to post 77 by shnarkle]

"The theologian, quite differently, is not detached from his object but is involved in it. He looks at his object (which transcends the character of being an object) with passion, fear, and love. This is not the eros of the philosopher or his passion for objective truth; it is the love which accepts saving, and therefore personal, truth. The basic attitude of the theologian is commitment to the content he expounds. Detachment would be a denial of the very nature of this content. The attitude of the theologian is "existential." He is involved -- with the whole of his existence, with his finitude and his anxiety, with his self-contradictions and his despair, with the healing forces in him and in his social situation. Every theological statement derives its seriousness from these elements of existence. The theologian, in short, is determined by his faith. Every theology presupposes that the theologian is in the theological circle. This contradicts the open, infinite, and changeable character of philosophical truth. It also differs from the way in which the philosopher is dependent on scientific research. The theologian has no direct relation to the scientist (including the historian, sociologist, psychologist). He deals with him only in so far as philosophical implications are at stake. If he abandons the existential attitude, as some of the "empirical" theologians have done, he is driven to statements the reality of which will not be acknowledged by anybody who does not share the existential presuppositions of the assumedly empirical theologian. Theology is necessarily existential, and no theology can escape the theological circle." Systematic Theology, Paul Tillich, Intro, p. 22, 23.


Theologically speaking, the Fall was one and the same with Creation. The estrangement then becomes existence and, this is then defined by the Fall. Essentially, two realms, essential and existential. Keep in mind the above quote regarding a theologian. From an existential realm, Creation, we can only think existentially. Sin, Original Sin then, is man's estrangement from God.

"Tillich’s early definition of sin in The Shaking of the Foundations provides a glimpse into formation of his theology. Almost a decade before his Systematic Theology was to be published Tillich wrote, “Have the men of our time still a feeling of the meaning of sin? Do they, and do we, still realize that sin does not mean an immoral act, that ‘sin’ should never be used in the plural, and that not our sins, but rather our sin is the great, all-pervading problem of our life?�2 Early on, Tillich rejected the notion that sin is an act or a collection of acts, instead interpreting it as a condition, a state in which man exists. As one will see, this view is not the same as the historic Christian view of original sin. In fact, he argues there is no “bondage of the will,� no original, hereditary sin.3"

"Tillich clarifies his position by reinterpreting sin entirely: “I would like to suggest another word to you, not as a substitute for the word ‘sin,’ but as a useful clue in the interpretation of the word ‘sin’: ‘separation’…sin is separation. To be in the state of sin is to be in the state of separation.�4) For Tillich, this idea of separation is key to his theology of the problem with the human condition, as man is separated from that which is of ultimate meaning and the aim of life, which creates anxiety, meaninglessness, despair, and existential conditions of death. A decade later, Tillich would take these early sketches of the human condition and refashion them to mean estrangement."
http://www.jeremybouma.com/the-gospel-a ... ion-sin-2/

We are sinners (estranged, separated) because are separated from "what is the ultimate meaning and the aim of life.")

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Re: Why did God have to punish Adam and Eve?

Post #80

Post by ttruscott »

shnarkle wrote:
...

Hey Ted, I'm not quite following your argument here. Are you saying that we sin because we are sinners, or that we are sinners because we sin? It sounds like you're saying that sin entered the world through someone other than Adam. Who are you referring to?
Preamble:
Everyone who is born a sinner brought their sin with them when they are sown into the world, as per the parable of the good but sinful seed, in Matt 13. No one is created as a sinner by being created human in Adam, a blasphemy I can't abide. Every sinner self created themselves as a sinner by deciding to do that which they knew GOD called a sin - no sin was by any accident at all but only by a free will decision made with full knowledge of what GOD said the consequences would be which was ignored.

We first sinned by a wrong desire: James 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Then after that we sin because we are enslaved by the addictive quality of evil: John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

The argument:
What does 'enter the world" mean"? The first one, right. But the serpent entered the garden with evil intent to tempt the supposedly innocent Adam and Eve so how is he not the first to bring sin into the world? And then Eve succumbed to his suggestions and ate and then tempted Adam so she is the second to sin in the garden, twice! So if the first to bring sin into the world is to refer only to humans, she was the first human to sin, not Adam!

So how is Adam the one who brought sin into the world?? This can only be if, as the first person to ARRIVE in the garden, he was already a sinner when he was moved from sheol into his body of dust by the breath of GOD!

Consider:

1. He was 'created' naked but was not ashamed as per orthodoxy.
2. By eating he had his eyes opened to the sin of his nakedness, not his eating.
3. Realizing that he was naked, he was ashamed and sought comfort in a fig leaf.

Do you think that his created nudity was sinful? No one since the Puritans accept that nudity is sin but his nakedness was sinful as he saw when his eyes were opened to his sin and saw his nakedness, not his eating, and he became properly ashamed. It is obvious that nakedness is a symbol for being a sinner (and blind to spiritual reality, hence his not being ashamed) as is echoed in Revelation 3:17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

So if his nakedness cannot refer to his being created without clothing, that is, nude, it must refer to his being in an uncovered state before GOD (look up the meaning of clothing), that is, in a state of sinfulness as he saw when his eyes were opened which made him ashamed.

Since he is obviously a sinner before he ate, then orthodoxy is wrong that his entry into his body was his creation as GOD does not create anyone as evil as HE has no use for evil and hates it with an utmost hate. This sets the stage for us to understand that he had an existence before the garden (contrary to orthodoxy) during which he made a true free will decision to rebel against GOD and become evil in HIS eyes.

And if this argument is not enough, consider: In the verse, Gen 2:25 Adam and his wife were both NAKED and they felt no shame. and the very next verse tells us Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more CRAFTY than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.

Both CRAFTY and NAKED are the same word `arm, that is, the word used by God to describe the serpent's evil, [subtil - H6175 `aruwm] is also used by GOD to describe Adam and Eve [naked - h6174 `arowm] before they ate but it is interpreted as 'naked' because of the bias in favour of their entry into the garden being their creation and all know GOD does not create anyone evil so `arm must mean something else!!!

The only difference between the words is in the vowel pointings which were not put into the text until about c600 AD by the Massorets, that is, no difference at all in Genesis.

[At least they know GOD creates no one evil until they need to think the scripture says GOD creates all humans as evil sinners by making them human in Adam, sigh. Blasphemy can be so useful sometimes to support a theology, <head shake>.]

Something to think about, eh?

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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